Ok, Hazzikostas, listen..

[Darththeo]

.. if you want to keep me as a player:

1.) Make Shadowlands alt friendly
2.) Do not hide Thorgast behind a grind
3.) Make reputations account based
4.) Add a ton of content instead of a a ton of time gates or effort gates
5.) Make LFR bearable, and not a wipe party
6.) Add back PVP vendors instead of bar filling games
7.) Remove Azerite Power / Anima Power / Artefact power / whatever power and do not replace it by a new label
8.) Remove Titanforging / Corruption / <new name for Shadowlands> and do not replace it by a new label
9.) Make pvp fair again
10.) Make my playtime worthwile, give me an ongoing character progression from accessible solo or group content

and

11.) Be less greedy, Ion, listen? LESS greedy. Let me play what i want to play, and do not try to force me into your wet dream of gameplay. I will NEVER join a premade group for raids or dungeons.

But as i know that you, Ion, would rather troll your customers than to listen to their feedback, it is very likely i will not going to play Shadowlands. As i know you and your alikes reactions to feedback already. You know, people asking you to remove Titanforging, and you adding Corruption. Or people telling you they like flying and you removing it. All those little meanies you thought would be funny.

1) Define alt friendly. Alt friendly to me implies that you can reasonably catch up on an alt without having to do all previous content, but still required to do some of it to be ready.
2) Whether it is a grind or not is irrelevant to me.
3) No.
4) How much is a ton?
5) For the most part, it is. Only a few fights are wipe parties.
6) Nope.
7 and 8) REMOVE THINGS I DON'T LIKE BECAUSE I WANT ONE SINGLE SOURCE OF CHARACTER PROGRESS!
9) Impossible and it never was.
10) And this seems slightly contrary to points 7 and 8.

[Ghostile]

And thankfully we have a forum where we can discuss our single person opinions and ignore those who would try to shut us up.

Not much of a discussion when someone states their opinions are cold hard facts.

[NineSpine]

It would still matter to get gear for other gameplay components, also, gearing could stay to be usefui for premade group play in pvp.

It just would not matter in random battlegrounds, world pvp or skirmishes, as the people rarely play on the same level of gear in these.

Also, sorry, but the idea that gear matters in PVP based on the RPG genre is quite stupid considering the fact that PVP is not part of the RPG element. And cannot be. PVP is a different playstyle, and part of the MMO part, and surely not based on the RPG part.

Treating PvP is a discrete separate part of the game that needs to work by completely different rules and design goals is the problem. You are assuming the problem and then working forward from there. That’s why you are wrong. It’s like assuming the house is on fire and then working forward, rather than starting with “how do we prevent a fire” and designing the house from that perspective.

[Gonfer]

No, organized competitive PvP is Incompatible with RPG elements. Dynamic sandbox PvP is completely compatible with RPG elements. Steering PvP toward organized competitive PvP was always a mistake that was never going to fully work.

Actually, gear mattering in open world pvp or battlegrounds is just stupid considering the fact an advantage for a pure pve player is just unjustified. A player who plays PVP only, and matchmade pvp only, has no chance against a pve raid equipped player. No matter how much skill he has.

Full normalization in matchmade battlegrounds and in world pvp is a must have, to give pvp players at least a chance to stand against pvp players.

[Ragedaug]

No, organized competitive PvP is Incompatible with RPG elements. Dynamic sandbox PvP is completely compatible with RPG elements. Steering PvP toward organized competitive PvP was always a mistake that was never going to fully work.

I contend that no rules, open world, gear-wins PVP will always be destined to fail.

When PVP isn't fair, the side or group that is getting stomped stop participating. That's what killed world PVP and WoW PVP in general.

[NineSpine]

Actually, gear mattering in open world pvp or battlegrounds is just stupid considering the fact an advantage for a pure pve player is just unjustified. A player who plays PVP only, and matchmade pvp only, has no chance against a pve raid equipped player. No matter how much skill he has.

Full normalization in matchmade battlegrounds and in world pvp is a must have, to give pvp players at least a chance to stand against pvp players.

I could say the exact same thing about PvE. Why should a player in better gear do more damage in a raid than me? It’s not fun for me to stand no chance against that player in competing for raid slots!

[Ragedaug]

Not much of a discussion when someone states their opinions are cold hard facts.

But since no one did that, we are free to discuss. So at least we can agree that's a good thing.

[NineSpine]

I contend that no rules, open world, gear-wins PVP will always be destined to fail.

When PVP isn't fair, the side or group that is getting stomped stop participating. That's what killed world PVP and WoW PVP in general.

Except world PvP was significantly more common BEFORE the obsession with homogenization and balance.

[Ragedaug]

I could say the exact same thing about PvE. Why should a player in better gear do more damage in a raid than me? It’s not fun for me to stand no chance against that player in competing for raid slots!

Because raids aren't player vs player. You are playing as a team against the environment. That's how RPGs and progression work. That doesn't work for player against player game play.

[NineSpine]

Because raids aren't player vs player. You are playing as a team against the environment. That's how RPGs and progression work. That doesn't work for player against player game play.

All you said was “because it’s different”. That’s not a reason.

[Gonfer]

Treating PvP is a discrete separate part of the game that needs to work by completely different rules and design goals is the problem. You are assuming the problem and then working forward from there. That’s why you are wrong. It’s like assuming the house is on fire and then working forward, rather than starting with “how do we prevent a fire” and designing the house from that perspective.

Well, yeah, the problem is, that gear and item level dominates a gameplay that is not about item level and gear, but about skill. And to solve that, the RPG elements of gear progression of one part should not work in the other part of the game. A MMORPG is a combination of different gamestyles, and some of them do not work in conjunction. I would even say PVP and PVE need horizontal progression. The vertical system produced way more problems than anything else.

A raider has not earned the gear to roflstomp pvp players. Currently, he will dominate no matter how much skill they show. The solution is to get rid of vertical progression for systems that are that different.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Just quit already.

i used to bitch about the game too, then i took this same advice from someone else. haven't looked back. good advice.

[Gonfer]

All you said was “because it’s different”. That’s not a reason.

But it is the reason. Why should Goober the big Pixelboss killer have advantages against someone who only plays matchmade battlegrounds?

That is just not a fair system.

[NineSpine]

Well, yeah, the problem is, that gear and item level dominates a gameplay that is not about item level and gear, but about skill. And to solve that, the RPG elements of gear progression of one part should not work in the other part of the game. A MMORPG is a combination of different gamestyles, and some of them do not work in conjunction. I would even say PVP and PVE need horizontal progression. The vertical system produced way more problems than anything else.

A raider has not earned the gear to roflstomp pvp players. Currently, he will dominate no matter how much skill they show. The solution is to get rid of vertical progression for systems that are that different.

Why should PvP be primarily about skill?

Why can’t PvP gear just have a stat on it, let’s call it “resilience” that helps just in PvP so that they can scale up against raiders faster?

- - - Updated - - -

But it is the reason. Why should Goober the big Pixelboss killer have advantages against someone who only plays matchmade battlegrounds?

That is just not a fair system.

Why is a fair system important? I’m more interested in a fun system.

[Ragedaug]

Except world PvP was significantly more common BEFORE the obsession with homogenization and balance.

World PVPs been dying the whole time I played WoW. Vanilla was better because you could actually live for a bit against an attacker (most times), even when they were a few levels higher than you and sometimes you could even beat them if you were good enough. BC it got a little worse, then Wrath got worse yet, and everyone in PVP gear or who had 5 levels on your could global you, then everyone transferred to faction imbalanced servers and/or stayed in the capitals.

You globaling someone may seem fun for you. But it's not for them, so they stop playing. Then you complain that WPVP is dead because the other faction won't let you global them anymore.

[Gonfer]

Except world PvP was significantly more common BEFORE the obsession with homogenization and balance.

The sun shined brighter before the gnome died.

Ergo, the gnome should live again, and the sun shines brighter.

Fallacy. An easy one even.

[NineSpine]

The sun shined brighter before the gnome died.

Ergo, the gnome should live again, and the sun shines brighter.

Fallacy. An easy one even.

If someone counters your “because I think so” baseless arguments with at least some semblance of objective facts, you can’t just call it a fallacy and pretend that your completely baseless argument is somehow more valid.

[Marrilaife]

This kind of post is the reason they shouldn't listen to feedback. You in your little universe have demands (INCLUDING NOT WANTING TO PLAY WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN A MMO) and think this is universal truth.

The problem is differentiating feedback from core playerbase and playerbase who doesn't belong in WOW but somehow wants to make WOW into a completely different game they'd like more. I've seen so many "suggestions" across the years that basically can be summed up as "make WOW into BDO" or some other game, why don't they just play that game instead...

[NineSpine]

World PVPs been dying the whole time I played WoW. Vanilla was better because you could actually live for a bit against an attacker (most times), even when they were a few levels higher than you and sometimes you could even beat them if you were good enough. BC it got a little worse, then Wrath got worse yet, and everyone in PVP gear or who had 5 levels on your could global you, then everyone transferred to faction imbalanced servers and/or stayed in the capitals.

You globaling someone may seem fun for you. But it's not for them, so they stop playing. Then you complain that WPVP is dead because the other faction won't let you global them anymore.

The PvP was the least balanced in vanilla. Yet it was more fun and more people did it. What does that tell you? That balance is bullshit.

[Gonfer]

Why should PvP be primarily about skill?

Because it is unfair to give a hardcore pve player an advantage over a pvp player. You know, fair gameplay.

Once again, a mythic raider does not deserve an advantage over a player in battlegrounds, if the other player plays battlegrounds every single day. But the battleground player could show as much skill as possible, and the nolifer raider still would dominate him.

Unfair gameplay, you know? Driven by a developer bias.