New interview with Steve Danuser about BfA

[Magical Mudcrab]

Old Gods stuff are everywhere.

Everything is related to Old Gods nowaways.

I'm unironically waiting in anticipation for there to be some contrived Old God connections to the creation of Frostmourne and the Helm of Dominion in Shadowlands, just because it would be so funny. The Old Gods have their fingers in so many peoples pies that I'm almost positive that Blizzard's incompetent writers believe that the only way to make a villain feel omnipresent and powerful is to literally reference them as much as possible in as many things as possible.

[Varodoc]

I didn't list them for their views on undeath... so I don't need to care about their view on undeath.

Note you pointed out Sylvanas' position to take out Stormwind as an indication of her whole war on life. Considering Stormwind was one of the first nations Sylvanas was stated to try and establish diplomatic relations with and failed I think it's more an indication of her well established spiteful nature instead of a major sign of future mass genocide of all life.

I pointed out 4 leaders who all have tried mass killings in the name of revenge and have made their views on faction killing clear. Genn and Jaina actually changing slightly (but still spear heading hostile invasions in recent storylines), still has them sporting their past activities. There is also more indication of these 4 characters actually doing something than what we have for Sylvanas between Arthas' fall and BFA (not counting new retcons post Jailer reveal AFTER 8.3).

I already clarified what I meant when I pointed out her desire to exterminate Stormwind.

Those 4 leaders don't want to literally commit mundicide and break cosmic balance. That's what makes them better than Sylvanas.

Great information for us the omniscient audience. NOT the story written to justify the actions of the rebels.

Committing literal genocide is not good enough of a motivation to start a rebellion? Genocide that was committed 2 years after another evil Warchief committed another genocide and incurred the wrath of much of the Horde, I might add.

We also didn't learn that. That's more information WE are privy to. Sylvanas' personal hell to be included in that list.

We've known since Edge of Night that she went to Hell like Arthas. Shadowlands simply gave a name to that Hell. It's called "The Maw". So now we can also refer to it as The Maw and not just Hell. That's literally the only thing that's changed since Edge of Night.

my point is the lack of development leading to the conclusion given...

Which again isn't true for Sylvanas. Already in Cataclysm she was more than willing to nuke entire kingdoms and commit genocide (see Gilneas and her desire to break the Gilneans until "not even their bones are left").

Sylvanas is just not Daenerys. The fact that they are both hot chicks with white hair doesn't make them similar. One was always written as a villain, the other was supposed to be more of an anti-hero, or a hero with flawed methods.

Apparently you're forgetting the warbringers short and what it implies... or maybe you just momentarily forgot the meaning of "always".

Uhm, are we talking about the Warbringers short where she commits genocide? I don't understand, what is that meant to imply in favor of Sylvanas NOT being evil?

[Magical Mudcrab]

Isn't this dude the Sylvanas SIMP? His opinion regarding the storytelling in BFA is invalid.

I've heard people mention on the forums that he has been using Nathanos as a self-insert, which would be incredibly awkward if true, especially given the romance between Nathanos and Sylvanas.

[Soon-TM]

So MoP 2.0 Morally Grey™ Edition confirmed. Colour me surprised, nobody ever saw that coming... Talk about subverting expectations

Faction War is boring ever since WC3.

It's gets annoying with each expansion.

Old Gods stuff are everywhere.

Everything is related to Old Gods nowaways.

Indeed. There was a reason for WC3 to stray from the "classic" orcs vs humans from the two first games. It was already stale back then, and the inclusion of elements like e.g. the Scourge, the BL or nelfs reinvigorated the narrative remarkably. As a matter of fact, WoW would have had a hard time becoming as popular as it did, if it hadn't been for the elements of WC3, which WoW relies upon even to this day.

[Mehrunes]

So MoP 2.0 Morally Grey™ Edition confirmed. Colour me surprised, nobody ever saw that coming... Talk about subverting expectations

The most sly way to subvert the expectations is to bullshit the fanbase into thinking the expectations will be subverted only to do a 180 and not subvert them at all.

[Aleksej89]

With an interview like that all hope for wow is lost.

They should have said they are ashamed of everything they did in BFA and will burn all such designs to the ground (along with the minds who thought of em
But no they are prrrrrrrroud AF to be behind the worst expo in wow history...

[yani9841]

I already clarified what I meant when I pointed out her desire to exterminate Stormwind.

Those 4 leaders don't want to literally commit mundicide and break cosmic balance. That's what makes them better than Sylvanas.

"those characters weren't written to be the big bad evil guy so they are better than the big bad evil guy"...

Yeah it's easy to be better than the character literally written as the biggest evil thus far.

Committing literal genocide is not good enough of a motivation to start a rebellion? Genocide that was committed 2 years after another evil Warchief committed another genocide and incurred the wrath of much of the Horde, I might add.

The fact that the literal genocide isn't what started the rebellion... I think you may want to go back and reread when the rebellion broke out this time around. Saurfang was effectively the sole rebelling force until after Dazar'alor.

Also, literally every horde nation has faced a genocide and the perpetrators of said events weren't all brought to justice (some are still in power and heralded as heroes still).

We've known since Edge of Night that she went to Hell like Arthas. Shadowlands simply gave a name to that Hell. It's called "The Maw". So now we can also refer to it as The Maw and not just Hell. That's literally the only thing that's changed since Edge of Night.

WE the players/audience or we as in the common pressence of azeroth. These are two very different notions. And actually some other inner dialogue concerning Sylvanas and her motivations are also drastically changed because now there is the Jailer that she is aware of that is the ultimate driving factor behind her actions.

Which again isn't true for Sylvanas. Already in Cataclysm she was more than willing to nuke entire kingdoms and commit genocide (see Gilneas and her desire to break the Gilneans until "not even their bones are left").

a war Garrosh forced upon everyone where he was willing to pave a way to his port with the remains of forsaken and gilneans alike... Sorry, but Sylvanas not wanting to waste forsaken lives for Garrosh's war paints a different picture.... that has since been retconned.

Sylvanas is just not Daenerys. The fact that they are both hot chicks with white hair doesn't make them similar. One was always written as a villain, the other was supposed to be more of an anti-hero, or a hero with flawed methods.

I think you miss my point yet again. I was referring to the rushed nature of the stories as they reached the mass killing events. Dany was a well intentioned person but season 8 rolls in and she's turned into a brutal killer razing armies, sparing no one, and a borderline tyrant seeing betrayal in every shadow.

Uhm, are we talking about the Warbringers short where she commits genocide? I don't understand, what is that meant to imply in favor of Sylvanas NOT being evil?

the one where she's defending her homeland against an invasion force and getting cut down personally by Arthas. A call back to before she was undead and as a single entity making such an issue that Arthas, the death knight, leader of an unending tide of undeath, had to personally step in and cut her down.

So saying she was "always" a villain seems dishonest at worst or ignorant at best.

Also I never once said Sylvanas wasn't evil or argued that point... in this exchange I pointed out your use of "always"

[Rinaul]

I think the cycle they speak of is the player circle jerk of blizzard hate whenever a post about them is made.

[Varodoc]

"those characters weren't written to be the big bad evil guy so they are better than the big bad evil guy"...

Yeah it's easy to be better than the character literally written as the biggest evil thus far.

Finally I got my point across.

The fact that the literal genocide isn't what started the rebellion... I think you may want to go back and reread when the rebellion broke out this time around. Saurfang was effectively the sole rebelling force until after Dazar'alor.

Also, literally every horde nation has faced a genocide and the perpetrators of said events weren't all brought to justice (some are still in power and heralded as heroes still).

That's not the point. You said the rebels had no justification in the story for rising up against Sylvanas, I said that they already had justification by virtue of Sylvanas committing genocide. If anything it's surprising that it took 2 patches for the Horde to turn against her.

WE the players/audience or we as in the common pressence of azeroth.

Pretty sure I don't exist on Azeroth, so No, we the players/audience.

And actually some other inner dialogue concerning Sylvanas and her motivations are also drastically changed because now there is the Jailer that she is aware of that is the ultimate driving factor behind her actions.

Nope. Many people knew there was a mastermind pulling the strings behind Sylvanas ever since the word "Death" started being capitalized around the end of Legion (see Three Sisters, and also the Void saying that Sylvanas served "the true enemy").

a war Garrosh forced upon everyone where he was willing to pave a way to his port with the remains of forsaken and gilneans alike... Sorry, but Sylvanas not wanting to waste forsaken lives for Garrosh's war paints a different picture.... that has since been retconned.

Pretty sure you don't need to exterminate the enemy down to the last child, make sure not even their bones are left, and nuke their nation with chemical weapon, to win a war with acceptable casualties.

I think you miss my point yet again. I was referring to the rushed nature of the stories as they reached the mass killing events. Dany was a well intentioned person but season 8 rolls in and she's turned into a brutal killer razing armies, sparing no one, and a borderline tyrant seeing betrayal in every shadow.

Because you have no point. Your entire argument rests on the false idea that Sylvanas' character arc was badly-represented, when that's not true. Some novels contradict her motivations, but it was obvious she was heading towards the state she's in now in Shadowlands. There's nothing rushed here.

the one where she's defending her homeland against an invasion force and getting cut down personally by Arthas.

So like the vast majority of undead.

A call back to before she was undead and as a single entity making such an issue that Arthas, the death knight, leader of an unending tide of undeath, had to personally step in and cut her down.

Why are you hyping her so much? Arthas isn't really the kind of villain who works in the shadows; in fact, he likes being in the middle of the action. He personally slew countless civilians just for the fun of it, not because they were a threat to him. Getting killed by Arthas himself is not a feat lol.

So saying she was "always" a villain seems dishonest at worst or ignorant at best.

In World of Warcraft she was always a villain. That's what I mean.

And yes she was a villain in Classic. Revolting experiments on the living and war of extermination waged against human refugees whom she sees as an "infestation" are evil things.

Also I never once said Sylvanas wasn't evil or argued that point... in this exchange I pointed out your use of "always"

Then why are you so surprised she wants to kill everyone?

[ravenmoon]

Finally I got my point across.


That's not the point. You said the rebels had no justification in the story for rising up against Sylvanas, I said that they already had justification by virtue of Sylvanas committing genocide. If anything it's surprising that it took 2 patches for the Horde to turn against her.

Unlike Garrosh in MoP, when the blame could be put on a warchief gone wrong, the horde followed Sylvanas to war and conquest over the night elves.. are we going to overlook that? Are we going to forget that most of them including Saurfang was complicit in the invasion that Anduin later honours?

[Soon-TM]

no amount of experience equals to 17 year old MAN!!!

Well, if a sub 40 years old Varian could lecture a 10k years old Tyrande about discipline and guerrilla warfare, there's no reason for his Mary Sue boi to not do the same.

[Jastall]

you know, when people say Sylvanas was always failing, they are wrong.

she pretty much got what she wanted.

every death caused by her war fueled that outofnowhere death lord.

It's more that the writing constantly changes her goals and motivations as well as gives her freebies so that her failures are completely irrelevant and she can keep on driving the story like some of the worst written anime villain.

[Varodoc]

Unlike Garrosh in MoP, when the blame could be put on a warchief gone wrong, the horde followed Sylvanas to war and conquest over the night elves.. are we going to overlook that? Are we going to forget that most of them including Saurfang was complicit in the invasion that Anduin later honours?

At this point yes, I'm overlooking that, because it's a lost cause.

[Syegfryed]

And it also doesn't magically make it bad or shit just because they are the ~~sAMe GeNerAl eVeNts~~.

it definitely contribute to make it shit or bad

same shit but worse to make it different

Also MoP was my favourite expansion. BFA was not but I enjoyed many aspects of it regardless. It being shit is your personal opinion

mop was also my favorite expansion, thats why i don't like a shit version of mop who spite all over the mop legacy pretending it didn't happen when we commit the same mistakes again like completely fools making the characters npcs completely dumb and acting out out character for the sake of plot

[yani9841]

Finally I got my point across.

I think you have yet to realize how foolish your position is though.

That's not the point. You said the rebels had no justification in the story for rising up against Sylvanas, I said that they already had justification by virtue of Sylvanas committing genocide. If anything it's surprising that it took 2 patches for the Horde to turn against her.

I repeatedly state that the story thus far is written in a way that there is almost no justifiable reason for the rebellion to get off the ground. We get beaten over the head that Sylvanas is evil and must be stopped and those who follow her are lost sheep....

but the story doesn't do anything to establish this after Teldrassil. Teldrassil was the only real reason and was misused to such a degree that the rebellion is being lead by murderers and thieves who are undermining the horde in an ongoing war. Turn on Sylvanas because she genocided a nation that was more than willing to fight the horde anyways... to get in bed with other leaders who were more than happy to ACTUALLY genocide us not even a few years ago... This is why the main point of genocide as a deciding factor gets ridiculous. Be a bilgewater goblin, follow the leader willing to genocide others or jump in with the nation willing to kill you all off for being nearby? Be an orc... night elves been fighting your kind since you set foot on this continent, be overly sad that they lost their nation or jump in with the people who invaded and threatened to wipe out your nation already multiple times? troll? repeat orc thinking minus night elf conflicts...

Teldrassil is used a major point acting like it's a unique event in the history of WoW, but it's not...

So when the rebellion kicks off because Baine killed some horde crew and stole a ship and was caught... we're kind of looking at a beyond fucked story.

Pretty sure I don't exist on Azeroth, so No, we the players/audience.

my points have been there is not justifiable reason from the lore stand point so I would tend to follow the reasoning as can be discerned from the character perspective.

I don't make my in game decisions based on my awareness of Sylvanas' plans because the game doesn't bother showing that. You can cite whatever you want, but you don't get that information until after Saurfang's death in the Mak'gora IF you play the loyalist quest route. This just shows how badly the information is made available.

Nope. Many people knew there was a mastermind pulling the strings behind Sylvanas ever since the word "Death" started being capitalized around the end of Legion (see Three Sisters, and also the Void saying that Sylvanas served "the true enemy").

I think that's you reaching for straws and using hindsight.

Pretty sure you don't need to exterminate the enemy down to the last child, make sure not even their bones are left, and nuke their nation with chemical weapon, to win a war with acceptable casualties.

Given the context of the line I'm not sure if that's the intent or an observation of how the blight will work.

Later interactions don't seem to carry that intent of killing everything so thoroughly.

Because you have no point. Your entire argument rests on the false idea that Sylvanas' character arc was badly-represented, when that's not true. Some novels contradict her motivations, but it was obvious she was heading towards the state she's in now in Shadowlands. There's nothing rushed here.

my point is the story is badly rail roaded not that Sylvanas is badly represented... we are given this drivel where the right path is follow anyone against Sylvanas... but the questioning of why that's poor storytelling is "well don't be a sheep following power" or "the RIGHT thing is to stand against the dictator" We are not to question how terrible the whole deal concerning saurfang or Baine is and anything less than condemnation of Sylvanas is worshipping some ultimate waifu because Apparently Sylvanas has nice tits in fan art.

Fact is, the story is a railroaded mess and is making. Ignoring that because "genocide is bad" is gross negligence. We don't see any uprisings because SI:7 has a genocidal outburst everytime they need to be relevant... despite their repeat offenses of hard hitting a specific cartel.

Why are you hyping her so much? Arthas isn't really the kind of villain who works in the shadows; in fact, he likes being in the middle of the action. He personally slew countless civilians just for the fun of it, not because they were a threat to him. Getting killed by Arthas himself is not a feat lol.

Maybe you forget that this was a main objective of the story campaign mission with the rather soul lacking Arthas showing no real emotion except for trying to slaughter her for being a thorn in his side.

but yeah, artificial hype

In World of Warcraft she was always a villain. That's what I mean.

oh look, an asterix now applies to that "always"

And yes she was a villain in Classic. Revolting experiments on the living and war of extermination waged against human refugees whom she sees as an "infestation" are evil things.

She was a dark edgy character among a host of dark edgy trope characters. Don't forget that those human refugees weren't all peaceful either and treated sentient undead and mindless undead the same. Also another thing the fact that we can SEE the development of the plague in classic and wrath is an example of what they should have been trying to do in BFA. Hell you can even find the breadcrumbs of Varimathras' eventual betrayal in the classic quests.

Then why are you so surprised she wants to kill everyone?

surprised at the war on life and later revealed war on hope that was made manifest entirely within teh duraction of BFA with no underlying plot or side story to back up beyond some authors coming in with the hind sight argument as they retcon 6+ years of lore.

[Varodoc]

I think you have yet to realize how foolish your position is though.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I repeatedly state that the story thus far is written in a way that there is almost no justifiable reason for the rebellion to get off the ground.

There is one: genocide. Which is what many Horde soldiers wanted to avoid after Garrosh. It's surprising it took so long for the rebellion to start.

my points have been there is not justifiable reason from the lore stand point so I would tend to follow the reasoning as can be discerned from the character perspective.

I don't make my in game decisions based on my awareness of Sylvanas' plans because the game doesn't bother showing that. You can cite whatever you want, but you don't get that information until after Saurfang's death in the Mak'gora IF you play the loyalist quest route. This just shows how badly the information is made available.

It's common knowledge that the game doesn't show everything and the novels released outside the game hold key information. You chose to ignore that, and thus don't understand the story. It's not Blizzard's fault.

I think that's you reaching for straws and using hindsight.

Not really? There were plenty of theories back in the day about this "true enemy" the Void Lords were referring to in Three Sisters. A comic that was advertised on the official Battle.net launcher nonetheless.

Given the context of the line I'm not sure if that's the intent or an observation of how the blight will work.

Later interactions don't seem to carry that intent of killing everything so thoroughly.

There really is no nuance. She's a psycho, so she wanted to exterminate the gilneans because they were fighting back and pushing the Forsaken out of Gilneas. That's why she had Gilneas nuked with chemical weapon, that she knew very well was lethal from the Wrathgate.

my point is the story is badly rail roaded not that Sylvanas is badly represented... we are given this drivel where the right path is follow anyone against Sylvanas... but the questioning of why that's poor storytelling is "well don't be a sheep following power" or "the RIGHT thing is to stand against the dictator" We are not to question how terrible the whole deal concerning saurfang or Baine is and anything less than condemnation of Sylvanas is worshipping some ultimate waifu because Apparently Sylvanas has nice tits in fan art.

Fact is, the story is a railroaded mess and is making. Ignoring that because "genocide is bad" is gross negligence. We don't see any uprisings because SI:7 has a genocidal outburst everytime they need to be relevant... despite their repeat offenses of hard hitting a specific cartel.

It's not right to follow Sylvanas because she's evil and crazy, which should've been obvious since the Burning of Teldrassil (hence why the Horde back then was described as morally grey = plenty of good people following an evil cause). It's better to follow Saurfang and Baine because they are not psychos who want to kill everyone and shatter the cosmic balance. It's pretty straightforward.

Maybe you forget that this was a main objective of the story campaign mission with the rather soul lacking Arthas showing no real emotion except for trying to slaughter her for being a thorn in his side.

but yeah, artificial hype

Yes, just like how butchering those 3 random paladins and civilians was the main objective of a quest in TFT. Doesn't really mean anything. Sylvanas put up a good fight just like plenty of other people did.

oh look, an asterix now applies to that "always"

Not really? I thought it was pretty obvious I was referring to WoW, since this is the game we're talking about, but since that wasn't clear to you, I clarified.

You can keep the "always". She was always evil.

She was a dark edgy character

I.e. evil.

Don't forget that those human refugees weren't all peaceful either and treated sentient undead and mindless undead the same.

X to doubt. They were mostly refugees who were fleeing from the Scourge, most of them were probably farmers or anyway people who were trying to cope with the harsh reality of the situation. If they had any hatred for Sylvanas (I dont really remember them attacking the Forsaken), it might have been because Sylvanas pretty much annihilated the remnants of the Alliance of Lordaeron, which had retaken Dalaran and was offering shelter to those refugees.

Also another thing the fact that we can SEE the development of the plague in classic and wrath is an example of what they should have been trying to do in BFA.

Which they did. We have elements that hint at Sylvanas having a much more sinister plan than just crushing the Alliance, because:

- She made a bargain with Helya;
- She says all will serve Death;
- The Void Lords claim she serves Death (capitalized = hinting at an actual entity);
- Bolvar and Bwonsamdi want to stop her because she's breaking the cosmic balance.

This coming from an expansion (Legion) where Xe'ra proved that cosmic balance is essential, no force should ever break it in their favor, not even the Light. It was pretty obvious Sylvanas was up to no good and that her plans were much scarier than just winning the war no matter the cost.

surprised at the war on life and later revealed war on hope that was made manifest entirely within teh duraction of BFA with no underlying plot or side story to back up beyond some authors coming in with the hind sight argument as they retcon 6+ years of lore.

They didn't retcon anything. She's been evil since Classic. That's why she went to Hell in WotLK.

Her war on life and hope against the night elves is the same thing she was doing against Gilneas in Cataclysm. Nothing new. I knew she was behind the Burning of Teldrassil, because she did the same thing to Gilneas a few years prior to that.

[shadowmatrix]

1. Normal response, never completely write off a threat until your completely done with it. Or you've have the ok from the entire writing team.

2. Garrosh 2.0 is a sad meme that should have died already. Sylvanas' actions throughout WOW have shown she was never nice or 100% trust worthy.

3. BFA storytelling was good for a multiplayer video game, not great and not bad. I've read bad and average stories and BFA doesn't fall into those categories.

Last time I saw a story get steered by the fandom it was Rise of the Skywalkers and we saw how that turned out.

[Varodoc]

Tbh I'm not sure why they are focusing so much on Garrosh 2.0. Yes, they are both evil warchiefs, but she is much more similar to Arthas.

They actually set up the Arthas comparison IN THE STORY back in Cataclysm, where Garrosh of all people (and the Ebon Blade and Argent Crusade) pointed out her rising similarities with the Lich King.

[Verdugo]

3. BFA storytelling was good for a multiplayer video game, not great and not bad. I've read bad and average stories and BFA doesn't fall into those categories.

BFA storytelling was bad EVEN for a multiplayer video game.

[Nebron]

Obviously, he can't simply present his personal opinion on Battle for Azeroth. My bet is that is not delusional and he knows the fucked up. I ignore all that nonsense, but there is one thing that have at least potential:

The team plans to tell a focused story arc that will continue through updates and culminate in a compelling conclusion [in Shadowlands].

Can't wait. Maybe at least they understand that the story requires a drastic change in direction.