Mythic+ without timer

[Ragnarohk]

It appears you want M0 difficulty with M+20 or so rewards. Is that what you are wanting here?

Yeah

Mythic+0 with rotating affixes and mobs with scaling damage/HP, that go up every time you clear the instance so that you can repeat the dungeon with a slight difficulty increase.

A key system could be used. When you clear the Mythic+0 you get a key that lets you activate a higher difficulty setting (it can add affixes too!). At the end of the instance your key upgrades.

[erifwodahs]

It could be a different mode with decreased reward per level, let's say 15 timed = 20 with out timer. Because even without timer, 20 would be quite hard for most people, I mean you would go out, spec for a single target encounter, wait for lust and so on, so it would not be as hard as group who tries to spec for whole dungeon and not a single encounter. Maybe remove the rule that you can't change azerites and talents when you start, because it would be a snorefest otherwise with everyone tping out and running back. But yeah, if

[Fayolynn]

"IT WAS IMPLEMENTED THIS WAY THEREFORE IT MUST NEVER CHANGE" That's basically the only counter-argument in this discussion save for "I DESERVE BETTER REWARDS THAN YOU"

Nice strawman you've built there. The actual counter argument for removal is that the timer is the main factor in what makes mythic+ difficult and that its removal will make the dungeons vastly easier

The only arguments in favor of removing it is "I don't like it so it should go away." which is not really an argument.

Can you propose a way to remove the timer that also retains the current level of difficulty?

[Tronski]

Nice strawman you've built there. The actual counter argument for removal is that the timer is the main factor in what makes mythic+ difficult and that its removal will make the dungeons vastly easier

The only arguments in favor of removing it is "I don't like it so it should go away." which is not really an argument.

Can you propose a way to remove the timer that also retains the current level of difficulty?

Yeah, if you only get a +1 key upgrade and say it max could be upgraded to +10 or 11, then you'd still have to do the weekly grind and spend the time, yet it doesn't diminish the achievements at +15, the epeen of +30 or the skill requirements to get anywhere. The elite would still have their times rund and get +3, which makes it faster and gives them more loot per hour.

Because let's be real, +10 is not in any way harder than normal raiding, it's just a playstyle many of us don't enjoy. Which, contrary to your statement, I believe, despite no-one is calling for the timer to be removed, is a perfectly valid reason to alter a feature.

But at it's core, what I think we enjoy the least is the artificial "difficulty" through gear requirements that we didn't have with Challenge mode, and the fact that random group members so very easily can screw up hours of work just by logging off or leaving the party.

And I ask yet again, how would it affect you negatively that tryhards with no skills get to complete +10 without worrying about the timer?

[shade3891]

My main concern is when a player leaves the run for whatever reason.

>>> We need a pause-button. <<<

- Button only appears for the partyleader when there are less then 4 players in the party.
- Button is only useable out of combat.
- When pressed all players and npc's are frozen in place.
- When a new player enters the instance they start at the partyleader and is also frozen.
- Partylead presses button again to continue.


But if you go with a system without a timer. How about this:
Add an ethereal NPC to freeze time on your current keystone, making it unable to upgrade or downgrade. (once a week)

- You need to clear all bosses and all elite thrash to complete the dungeon run.
- Completing rewards the party with a Challenger's Cache that contains 2 pieces of loot at an appropriate ilvl.
- For every level above 9 there is a 100% chance to get another piece of loot in the chest. Up to 5 items
- Challenger's Burden: Players are still affected by Challenger's Burden, whenever a player dies, 20% is removed from the extra item chance as a penalty.

[Fayolynn]

Yeah, if you only get a +1 key upgrade and say it max could be upgraded to +10 or 11, then you'd still have to do the weekly grind and spend the time, yet it doesn't diminish the achievements at +15, the epeen of +30 or the skill requirements to get anywhere. The elite would still have their times rund and get +3, which makes it faster and gives them more loot per hour.

Because let's be real, +10 is not in any way harder than normal raiding, it's just a playstyle many of us don't enjoy. Which, contrary to your statement, I believe, despite no-one is calling for the timer to be removed, is a perfectly valid reason to alter a feature.

But at it's core, what I think we enjoy the least is the artificial "difficulty" through gear requirements that we didn't have with Challenge mode, and the fact that random group members so very easily can screw up hours of work just by logging off or leaving the party.

And I ask yet again, how would it affect you negatively that tryhards with no skills get to complete +10 without worrying about the timer?

I like how you response completely avoids the point. Your argument is still "I don't like it so remove it." without any suggestion on how to retain the current level of difficulty.

What weekly grind are you talking about? If you clear a +11 this week, next week you start with a +10. There is no grind involved, you don't start with a +2 key every week.

You say no-one is calling for the timer to be removed in a thread about that specific topic.

What you describe as "artificial difficulty" is literally how all PvE content works in WoW.

Those people can already complete a +10 without worrying about the timer so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

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- Challenger's Burden: Players are still affected by Challenger's Burden, whenever a player dies, 20% is removed from the extra item chance as a penalty.

Your system incentivises making the run as easy as possible (meaning less to no deaths) by mass CCing everything and waiting for cool downs.

[Tronski]

My main concern is when a player leaves the run for whatever reason.

>>> We need a pause-button. <<<

- Button only appears for the partyleader when there are less then 4 players in the party.
- Button is only useable out of combat.
- When pressed all players and npc's are frozen in place.
- When a new player enters the instance they start at the partyleader and is also frozen.
- Partylead presses button again to continue.

This would actually solve many problems. But it might also be too easily exploitable. I.E. a 5m Method group clears up until last boss on their fastest time ever, one of them alt+f4, leader hits pause, in comes a boostee to give Method their easiest gold ever made and get his +15 clear in return for only lying dead in a corner at the last boss.

I'm not sure I think that is better than letting a clear with expired timer grant a +1 to key.

[EasyE]

No timer for keys below 9 everything 10+ gets a timer. Keys can only upgrade by 1 below level 9 as well.

[Tronski]

I like how you response completely avoids the point. Your argument is still "I don't like it so remove it." without any suggestion on how to retain the current level of difficulty.

What weekly grind are you talking about? If you clear a +11 this week, next week you start with a +10. There is no grind involved, you don't start with a +2 key every week.

You say no-one is calling for the timer to be removed in a thread about that specific topic.

What you describe as "artificial difficulty" is literally how all PvE content works in WoW.

Those people can already complete a +10 without worrying about the timer so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

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If you clear a +10, you still have to do +9 on time to get to +10 next week. If you get a ragequitter that poofs after 2rd boss, you have to do +8. maybe you get +1, maybe you get +2. This continues until you have actually completed +11, which you have to do each week to get a +10 key by default the next week. and that's called a grind. A quite unecessary one.

Or you can just buy a +10/11 boost on someone elses key, which I assume you have no problem with, because it clearly requires an equal amount of skill to just pick herbs for 10 hours to afford it. You're free to tell me how that's better (than getting +1 after time expires) from a gampelay perspective btw.

Challenge modes in MoP and WoD did not have this artificial difficulty. You could clear them gold timed with basic blue gear, and your mythic gear downscaled anyway.

I was pretty clear on the fact that I want the timer to still be there for those who wish to run it timed and get the rewards that yields. My proposal was clearly that you only get +1 per run if you don't clear on time, and that you can only go so far as +10 or +11. Your answer to my question "how would it affect you negatively that tryhards with no skills get to complete +10 without worrying about the timer?" was those people clear +10 on time anyway.

Are you arguing just to argue? You are saying the exact same thing as me with different words. It doesn't take skill to clear +10 on time, it is not hard. We just don't like the playstyle of hurrying through and there is no reason we should have to.

I also like that you keep bringing up fallacies and "you didn't answer" (Even though I did), while also not answering the one simple question I asked you.

Please try again: How would it affect you negatively that anyone could get +1 upgraded keys up to +11 with expired timers?

[shade3891]

Your system incentives making the run as easy as possible (meaning less to no deaths) by mass CCing everything and waiting for cool downs.

True but that takes a lot more time and coordination with the rest of the partymembers.
I say if you want to spend that much more time/effort clearing it that way, the extra spend time/effort is also worth the extra loot?

Well Blizzard is never changing it anyway, so not going make an entire discussion about it.

If anything they might remove the timer on all runs below +10, so more/new players get familiar with affixes without the time pressure.

[Sámsa]

the fact that we are talking about +10 here shows the level of this discussion

Yeah remove the timer on +10s you are perfectly right. Nobody gives a sh** about +10s or even +15.

P.S.: if they are sooo easy the timer should not bother you at all. Because you will clear it in that time frame anyway.

[Fayolynn]

If you clear a +10, you still have to do +9 on time to get to +10 next week. If you get a ragequitter that poofs after 2rd boss, you have to do +8. maybe you get +1, maybe you get +2. This continues until you have actually completed +11, which you have to do each week to get a +10 key by default the next week. and that's called a grind. A quite unecessary one.

Or you can just buy a +10/11 boost on someone elses key, which I assume you have no problem with, because it clearly requires an equal amount of skill to just pick herbs for 10 hours to afford it. You're free to tell me how that's better (than getting +1 after time expires) from a gampelay perspective btw.

Challenge modes in MoP and WoD did not have this artificial difficulty. You could clear them gold timed with basic blue gear, and your mythic gear downscaled anyway.

I was pretty clear on the fact that I want the timer to still be there for those who wish to run it timed and get the rewards that yields. My proposal was clearly that you only get +1 per run if you don't clear on time, and that you can only go so far as +10 or +11. Your answer to my question "how would it affect you negatively that tryhards with no skills get to complete +10 without worrying about the timer?" was those people clear +10 on time anyway.

Are you arguing just to argue? You are saying the exact same thing as me with different words. It doesn't take skill to clear +10 on time, it is not hard. We just don't like the playstyle of hurrying through and there is no reason we should have to.

I also like that you keep bringing up fallacies and "you didn't answer" (Even though I did), while also not answering the one simple question I asked you.

Please try again: How would it affect you negatively that anyone could get +1 upgraded keys up to +11 with expired timers?

If you clear a +10 then the next week you will have to spend 30-42 minutes (depending on the dungeon) to get to your +10 key that you can then spend as long as you want on. 2 dungeons in a week is not a grind. If someone rage quits its because people are dying in the group to much wasting time, that won't change with no timer.

Being able to buy runs from people has nothing to do with removing the timer.

Challenge modes still required you to earn the base gear level, meaning the "artificial difficulty" from gear level was still a thing. There was just a gear level cap so you couldn't trivialize the content. Challenge modes also had rather strict timers if you wanted to hit gold.

The problem is you have identified something you don't like (the timers) but haven't made an argument for why the timers are bad for the game and need to be removed. You keep asking how removing timers would affect me personally but that question is a misdirect from the actual issue at hand. The real questions are does Blizzard need to make it even easier for low skilled people to get higher level gear (because they are the primary ones who would benefit from a removal of mythic+ timers) and would this change benefit the game in the long run.

- - - Updated - - -

True but that takes a lot more time and coordination with the rest of the partymembers.
I say if you want to spend that much more time/effort clearing it that way, the extra spend time/effort is also worth the extra loot?

Well Blizzard is never changing it anyway, so not going make an entire discussion about it.

If anything they might remove the timer on all runs below +10, so more/new players get familiar with affixes without the time pressure.

It might be a bigger time investment but the point is to reward players based on skill, not time invested.

The current Mythic+ system already does a good job of baby steps you into the affixes.

[Tronski]

If you clear a +10 then the next week you will have to spend 30-42 minutes (depending on the dungeon) to get to your +10 key that you can then spend as long as you want on. 2 dungeons in a week is not a grind. If someone rage quits its because people are dying in the group to much wasting time, that won't change with no timer.

Being able to buy runs from people has nothing to do with removing the timer.

Challenge modes still required you to earn the base gear level, meaning the "artificial difficulty" from gear level was still a thing. There was just a gear level cap so you couldn't trivialize the content. Challenge modes also had rather strict timers if you wanted to hit gold.

The problem is you have identified something you don't like (the timers) but haven't made an argument for why the timers are bad for the game and need to be removed. You keep asking how removing timers would affect me personally but that question is a misdirect from the actual issue at hand. The real questions are does Blizzard need to make it even easier for low skilled people to get higher level gear (because they are the primary ones who would benefit from a removal of mythic+ timers) and would this change benefit the game in the long run.

- - - Updated - - -



It might be a bigger time investment but the point is to reward players based on skill, not time invested.

The current Mythic+ system already does a good job of baby steps you into the affixes.

The main problem here is that you seemingly doesn't understand the issue at all if you think pugging +10 requires up to 45 minutes without a beefed up raider score and the gear that goes with it. Good for you that you don't have to deal with the bullshit, some of us aren't that lucky. People leave for no reason, They disconnect, I've seen them leave for minor issues like tank management or a dps a bit on the low side because they predict problems later or just because the argument gets nasty fast. This is reality. I once spent a full playsession working my way up to +10 only to end up at a +7 before I gave up in frustration because I couldn't do anything to mitigate or prevent losing people. This is undeniably a problem regardless of whether it happens to you or not.

You can't both say that M+ needs to have a timer to retain difficulty while saying it's unproblematic that people are carried through. Being booster is clearly trivializing content, and horse yet, they also get a higher score than they should have.

Challenge modes wasn't harder than them being fully possible to boost people to gold with time to spare. I made quite a few golden coins myself, and that's saying something.

I have told you why the timer is a problem. I have told you why it's a problem to spend hours fighting downgrading keys.
All of this is solved by the key upgrading regardless of timer.

Now you need to tell me why it's a problem for you if we get to not have these problems.

[Garymorilix]

People don't seem to understand the major difference between a M+ run and a Raid encounter.

A boss in a raid is considered one encounter. It is designed that way that's why you have "hidden" timers on raid bosses - enrage/whatever mechanic.

An M+ run is considered one encounter from the moment you put the key in until you kill the last boss. It is NOT a mini raid where only bosses matter. The whole thing is one encounter. It is balanced that way and it can be only balanced that way.

Why? Because there needs to be a failsafe for the key upgrade system. Not to discourage bad players but to encourage good ones.
It feels good to time a key, whatever anyone says. It feels even better to have that 2 or 3 star at the end.
If anyone could upgrade any key for simply completing it then there would be no challenge.
It's not challenging to mash your face against a wall until it breaks for 3 hours. It's stupid.

A semi decent 440ish group can easily 3 star a +5 without effort. I managed to tank a +8 on my 442 monk (sots) and 2 star it despite nobody but me knowing where to go and my group stood in every single boss mechanic there is.
The timer is very generous below 15 keys. The only way you are not timing one (relative to your gear) is if someone goes afk at any point or if someone does not know how to handle affixes (like bolstering in kings rest first room) or the tank having zero idea what a dungeon even is.

Which means that the team is bad and does not deserve an upgrade anyway.

[meroko]

To continue your strawman arguement here, this means that all content that doesn't have a timer associated with it requires 0 skill. Mythic raids? Easy. The only hard content in the game, according to this train of logic, is Mythic+, and Visions, both major and minor.

Mythic key 20 would still be difficult, even not factoring in the time associated with it. I understand in theory what you were going for, you wouldn't want the lack of a timer to be meaningless. But 'no rewards' is not the way to go, nor is your reasoning for such a 'lower' risk taken here, either.

The way I would handle it, is that there are two forms of mythic+ you could run. The timer based one, where you can upgrade your keys, and get (For the sake of what we have currently) GUARENTEED Titanforged gear (Ideally this means that Titanforging is no longer RNG based, just difficulty completion based), and Non-timer based Mythic+ works on who ever the leader of the group has completed highest key of THAT WEEK. You still need to run a timer based Mythic+ to unlock the other form, but if you need gear from +3 before going for a +4, you can farm +3s without toxicity involved.

That's just my thoughts on it, atleast.

Mythic Raids are on a timer though. It's called Enrage

[Vilendor]

This would actually solve many problems. But it might also be too easily exploitable. I.E. a 5m Method group clears up until last boss on their fastest time ever, one of them alt+f4, leader hits pause, in comes a boostee to give Method their easiest gold ever made and get his +15 clear in return for only lying dead in a corner at the last boss.

I'm not sure I think that is better than letting a clear with expired timer grant a +1 to key.

This is the problem with current WoW. Everything is designed from the perspective of how to restrict players, how to prevent happening X and Y, how to cater to X type of players. No one gives a F about just designing something fun, creative, fitting into the game/lore... because what if...

So Method made some gold and some looser got an achievement, but that's enough to toss out an actually useful system.
By the way im sure you didn't noticed this jet, but literally everyone selling +15 clears right now with idiots lying dead in a corner on every boss.... so what's the difference?

[Garymorilix]

This is the problem with current WoW. Everything is designed from the perspective of how to restrict players, how to prevent happening X and Y, how to cater to X type of players. No one gives a F about just designing something fun, creative, fitting into the game/lore... because what if...

So Method made some gold and some looser got an achievement, but that's enough to toss out an actually useful system.
By the way im sure you didn't noticed this jet, but literally everyone selling +15 clears right now with idiots lying dead in a corner on every boss.... so what's the difference?

So you think boosters are the only one capable of abusing this system?

What if you made a group, got to the last boss and randomly kicked one of your pugs because you want to gear your friend's new alt.
Will they feel like this is a good system?

Or you just kick a pug cuz you don't like their class for the next boss and want another one.
Will they feel like it's an amazing system?

There is a reason why M+ runs lock you in the moment you start them.
Regular everyday people would abuse this system to hell and back like they used to abuse key deletion.
But you wouldn't admit that cuz you would be the one doing the abuse.

Leavers occur much less often than successful runs. Especially if you are willing to communicate whether you inted to time a run or not.
This is not a problem the system has to solve, it's player behaviour.

What a system can do is not enable even worse behaviour.

[Vilendor]

So you think boosters are the only one capable of abusing this system?

What if you made a group, got to the last boss and randomly kicked one of your pugs because you want to gear your friend's new alt.
Will they feel like this is a good system?

There are multiple punishable behaviours in the current game. Report and punish? Naaaah, that's too easy, lets just don't make anything that doesn't feel like an over designed conveyor belt corporate bullshit. Because people don't complain constantly about systems fatigue in WoW, right?

Or you just kick a pug cuz you don't like their class for the next boss and want another one.
Will they feel like it's an amazing system?

It's the same thing

There is a reason why M+ runs lock you in the moment you start them.
Regular everyday people would abuse this system to hell and back like they used to abuse key deletion.
But you wouldn't admit that cuz you would be the one doing the abuse.

I don't have a subscription since 6 months and im a full casual player since 3 years. But hey, if you want to be an asshole, sure, go for it. What else? My mom is fat and my dad is ugly? You are pathetic...

By the what was the problem with key deletion beside not fitting PERFECTLY how Blizzard expected us to play the game? People want to farm a specific dungeon? THEY WANT TO PLAY THE GAME?! Nah, F them, go and run the dungeons you don't like! Because not playing as we want you is a SIN!

Leavers occur much less often than successful runs. Especially if you are willing to communicate whether you inted to time a run or not. This is not a problem the system has to solve, it's player behaviour.

What a system can do is not enable even worse behaviour.

We talking in this topic about concepts, no one wants to take away your precious locked timed runs. Read the topic title again.

[Garymorilix]

There are multiple punishable behaviours in the current game. Report and punish? Naaaah, that's too easy, lets just don't make anything that doesn't feel like an over designed conveyor belt corporate bullshit. Because people don't complain constantly about systems fatigue in WoW, right?



It's the same thing



I don't have a subscription since 6 months and im a full casual player since 3 years. But hey, if you want to be an asshole, sure, go for it. What else? My mom is fat and my dad is ugly? You are pathetic...





We talking in this topic about concepts, no one wants to take away your precious locked timed runs. Read the topic title again.

So you not only double the amount of griefers with this change but also double the amount of people the report system has to punish and probably send to manual review?
For what?
You are creating more harm and work for everyone by enabling this behaviour than good. You literally gained nothing but made griefing an actual issue that people have to account for when they are not doing their own keys.

It is the same thing in practice (as in someone gets kicked) but not why he gets kicked.
The problem you fail to understand is that people take the path of least resistance. You had your chance to make a normal group before you went into the dungeon.
If you decide that you do not like a player mid-run that is not their fault, you invited them. They worked just as hard to progress as anyone.
AFKers and leavers do happen but they are few, given you actually build a group not just invite anyone randomly.

You have not played the game in 6 months and being full casual (I assume) means you probably do not even do M+ at all yet you try to force change to an aspect of a game you do not even participate in?
Interesting indeed. Must be hard being you.

I have no idea why you dont understand how easy this can be abused.
I also have no idea why you assume that the players are nice people by default and they would be so nice they wouldnt abuse it.
It makes literally no sense.

[froschhure]

I do like a pause feature for m+

But as damage main, while pugging-you give lead to the other guy - so we need a max time for pause. Mb max 5 minutes per run. Useable as often as one wants as long as you have pause minutes left