WF/TFing was fine and now whiners have ruined everything.

[Osmeric]

Blaming people who wanted TF removed for Corruption is beyond moronic.

No one could have anticipated a system like Corruption.

No, it's correct to blame them. WF/TF existed for a reason. These people needed to ask themselves "what's the alternative solution to the problem WF/TF solves?"

Chesterton's Fence, I tell you.

[Raelbo]

I don’t see the point of restating the argument that having control over what gear is tradable more so now than when we had titan forging should be done to someone that completely ignores any and all arguments that have been made

I wasn't asking you to restate an argument that had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was pointing out the irony of using a one line response to tell someone who had just presented a fully fleshed out argument that they had no argument. And no, I haven't ignored any arguments that have been. I have rebutted them.

Speaking of which: the problem of not being able loot trade high ilevel titanforged items is not even a titanforging issue. It's a loot trading issue.

[Revamp Man]

No, it's correct to blame them. WF/TF existed for a reason. These people needed to ask themselves "what's the alternative solution to the problem WF/TF solves?"

Chesterton's Fence, I tell you.

What problem did it solve

[kaminaris]

What problem did it solve

Having super boring loot, being geared up in a month, not having any chance to get upgrades from anywhere, having only one source of gear, repeatedly farming one instance because it was bis and there was no alternative, shall I go on?

[Revamp Man]

I wasn't asking you to restate an argument that had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was pointing out the irony of using a one line response to tell someone who had just presented a fully fleshed out argument that they had no argument. And no, I haven't ignored any arguments that have been. I have rebutted them.

Speaking of which: the problem of not being able loot trade high ilevel titanforged items is not even a titanforging issue. It's a loot trading issue.

What about the fact most players are driven by finding ilvl upgrades and could easily outgrow the content suitable to their skill level?

What about the fact that if you don’t wanna have a mediocre character you had to do things like farm world bosses which existed in legion

The loot trading system is shit but the problem was compounded by titanforging

I had over a dozen wasted drops last tier yet this tier not so much

[kaminaris]

What about the fact most players are driven by finding ilvl upgrades and could easily outgrow the content suitable to their skill level?

What about the fact that if you don’t wanna have a mediocre character you had to do things like farm world bosses which existed in legion

The loot trading system is shit but the problem was compounded by titanforging

I had over a dozen wasted drops last tier yet this tier not so much

1. That is not what most players are driven, that is your assumption, wildly incorrect one.

2. That was a problem with this specific boss, namely withered jim.

3. Loot trading is pretty ok, it should be just clampled to +5 ilvl not exactly the same ilvl or you wont be able to trade.

4. And I had over 50 dead drops in WoD, MoP. Vast majority of gear went straight to vendor. Now (in bfa), not so much. This absolutely doesn't prove anything.

[Revamp Man]

Having super boring loot, being geared up in a month, not having any chance to get upgrades from anywhere, having only one source of gear, repeatedly farming one instance because it was bis and there was no alternative, shall I go on?

1. Loot was still boring and even had a sense of disappointment but by your logic it’s still there because of corruption effects that don’t scale with ilvl

2. Same situation as with TF

3. Define upgrades because TF had that issue as well

4. Never happened at least since legion launch

5. Still existed because you wanted a TF BiS trinket

So please go on because those are not arguments but poorly veiled excuses for “I like higher ilvl”

[Xath]

That is pure delusion. People didn't love tier sets, especially when only a very small portion of playerbase had access to it.

Another delusion is thinking 99% hated those things. More like super small slice of playerbase aka forum screechers were wrong.

No the only delusoon here is thinking that the majority of people who played consistently like wf and tf. Also everyone had access to tier sets outside of I think one tier they dropped in lfr and even that tier they still dropped in normal.

[Revamp Man]

1. That is not what most players are driven, that is your assumption, wildly incorrect one.

2. That was a problem with this specific boss, namely withered jim.

3. Loot trading is pretty ok, it should be just clampled to +5 ilvl not exactly the same ilvl or you wont be able to trade.

4. And I had over 50 dead drops in WoD, MoP. Vast majority of gear went straight to vendor. Now (in bfa), not so much. This absolutely doesn't prove anything.

1. This is based off the fact ppl are complaining that they lost the ability to have an ilvl lottery and only aim for the highest rewarding content

2. In legion it was Jim now there were like two I can remember on my monk just for trinkets but multiply that by each spec for each class and removing TF fixed it

3. It shouldn’t be clamped at all blizzard doesn’t need to hold people’s hands

4. TF and ilvl trading locks didn’t exist then. Having gear that is useless but tradable is great but when it becomes untradable because you rolled too high...screw that

[Niwes]

That is 100% not the reason that these systems exist. They exist because it gives players an extra incentive to do content they may have normally avoided. This conspiracy theory that Blizzard introduces these systems to artificially gate content or create grinds is absurdly cynical. Yet on forums like this players like to pretend like this is the undeniable reality of the situation and Ion is mischievously twirling a cartoon mustache while he intentionally designs the game to be as shitty as possible. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't pass any amount of critical thinking. If you just want a negativity echo chamber and a safe space to bash Blizzard for designing a system you personally dislike, go for it -- but please understand not everybody sips the "because fuck you" Kool-Aid that's so popular around here.

i work in somewhat same business as Blizz since 20 years and in my oppinion this is just an unbelievable stupid and foremost naive mindset. but in reality i should be happy about that, because with ppl like you we make good profits. and Blizz also, i assume. but this is just my opinion. so, everyone to his own. this is your opinion and your mindset, and this is totally fine.

[Mayia]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade. Once your guild has finally cleared the new tier and you've farmed it for half a year and everyone has had their BiS items forever what's the point? Now with WF/TF gone they've replaced it with an even worse system and come Shadowlands they're either going to remove any sort of loot powercreep system and stick with corruption or have something as bad or worse. WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression. Who cares if some LFR floor-licker got a mythic level TF item; it's not like these people are going to somehow become better than you and start raiding mythic because they have a TF piece now. The good players progress the hardest content and the rest don't, regardless of gear.

Go on and link your armoury for everyone to check out.
i really doubt anyone with this opinion really play the game at a decent level.

[Lime]

Go on and link your armoury for everyone to check out.
i really doubt anyone with this opinion really play the game at a decent level.

Between people pretending they know what the majority wants and comments like this, this thread is an absolute dumpster fire. I took the thread seriously and forgot where I was.

Good luck with this, guys. Stay healthy.

[kaminaris]

1. Loot was still boring and even had a sense of disappointment but by your logic it’s still there because of corruption effects that don’t scale with ilvl

2. Same situation as with TF

3. Define upgrades because TF had that issue as well

4. Never happened at least since legion launch

5. Still existed because you wanted a TF BiS trinket

So please go on because those are not arguments but poorly veiled excuses for “I like higher ilvl”

1. Since WF/TF loot was a LOT less boring.

2. You cannot be geared up in a month with TF, and it was a good thing.

3. That is not an issue. I might go to pretty much any dungeon and receive upgrade, with static gear THIS SIMPLY COULD NOT OCCUR. So i had no reason to help anyone with their loot.

4. Yeah and it is again a good thing, a benefit from having TF.

5. You didn't, that is a point. You just wanted this specific trinket.


Let me tell you something, you have zero empathy and laser sight, you cannot simply comprehend how other people feel that is why you didn't see issues with boring static loot.

One very simple example. Before TF and M+, I had zero reason to go for any raid boss that did not drop any item for me. ZERO, I immediately volunteered to go to bench for such bosses.

Now since M+ doesn't drop WF/TF I have also zero reason to go there besides doing one for weekly best. And I have even less desire to go to dungeons that doesn't drop items for me. I already have good corruptions so chance of getting any upgrade is abyssaly low.
And that comes from dude that doesn't give a flying fuck about gear.

[Reydan]

1. Since WF/TF loot was a LOT less boring.

2. You cannot be geared up in a month with TF, and it was a good thing.

3. That is not an issue. I might go to pretty much any dungeon and receive upgrade, with static gear THIS SIMPLY COULD NOT OCCUR. So i had no reason to help anyone with their loot.

4. Yeah and it is again a good thing, a benefit from having TF.

5. You didn't, that is a point. You just wanted this specific trinket.


Let me tell you something, you have zero empathy and laser sight, you cannot simply comprehend how other people feel that is why you didn't see issues with boring static loot.

One very simple example. Before TF and M+, I had zero reason to go for any raid boss that did not drop any item for me. ZERO, I immediately volunteered to go to bench for such bosses.

Now since M+ doesn't drop WF/TF I have also zero reason to go there besides doing one for weekly best. And I have even less desire to go to dungeons that doesn't drop items for me. I already have good corruptions so chance of getting any upgrade is abyssaly low.
And that comes from dude that doesn't give a flying fuck about gear.

Are you really sure you don't give a fuck about gear? You don't sound like a guy/girl who doesn't give a fuck about gear lol.

Static loot might be boring for you but not for others the same with WF/TF. WF/TF is boring to me because it gives the same loot with better stats, for me and other thats boring. You do have a point with static gear which means you can be fully geared if you are lucky with gear drops and for some (like you) that's an issue. I don't think there will be a way to please both sides so Blizz has to choose a side I guess.

[kaminaris]

Are you really sure you don't give a fuck about gear? You don't sound like a guy/girl who doesn't give a fuck about gear lol.

Static loot might be boring for you but not for others the same with WF/TF. WF/TF is boring to me because it gives the same loot with better stats, for me and other thats boring. You do have a point with static gear which means you can be fully geared if you are lucky with gear drops and for some (like you) that's an issue. I don't think there will be a way to please both sides so Blizz has to choose a side I guess.

Yes, I have absolutely no interest in gear itself at all.
This translates to: I never complain about not getting better gear, not having a luck to weekly chest etc.
BUT having a better gear means progressing raid faster so I care about my character power, not gear itself.

What I care way more is having fun. Static gear means I will be running same boss, same dungeon until I puke.
That is why static gear is boring. Not because I am bored looking at stats.

[Edward Wu]

No, it's correct to blame them. WF/TF existed for a reason. These people needed to ask themselves "what's the alternative solution to the problem WF/TF solves?"

Chesterton's Fence, I tell you.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Blaming people (who wanted a system gone becuase of its rng) for a new system introduced with even more rng is beyond moronic. This is just you not willing to be harshly critical of Blizzard for whatever reason.

[Deferionus]

I don't understand why people would want to raid or even play the game when there's no chance to get an upgrade. Once your guild has finally cleared the new tier and you've farmed it for half a year and everyone has had their BiS items forever what's the point? Now with WF/TF gone they've replaced it with an even worse system and come Shadowlands they're either going to remove any sort of loot powercreep system and stick with corruption or have something as bad or worse. WF/TFing was the only thing that gave a little incentive to do the same content over and over for a chance at character progression. Who cares if some LFR floor-licker got a mythic level TF item; it's not like these people are going to somehow become better than you and start raiding mythic because they have a TF piece now. The good players progress the hardest content and the rest don't, regardless of gear.

I think the problem is the randomness of it. If they had made it so that you need to get all ilvl 400 items and then would can get 410 items, and then once all 410, you can get 420s, it would feel better. It still accomplishes the same point but it is no longer random, it just rewards for continued running of the content.

[Kaver]

What I care way more is having fun. Static gear means I will be running same boss, same dungeon until I puke.
That is why static gear is boring. Not because I am bored looking at stats.

If you're bored then you should try to do something more challenging than LFR.

- - - Updated - - -

1. That is not what most players are driven, that is your assumption.

It's funny how you always flame people for making assumptions when most of what you say are also assumptions. You never have any data or proof for what you are saying. Stop being a hypocrite.

1. Since WF/TF loot was a LOT less boring.

Only if you need to outgear all content to be able to do it. Other people put in effort and become better at the game.

[Xath]

Yes, I have absolutely no interest in gear itself at all.
This translates to: I never complain about not getting better gear, not having a luck to weekly chest etc.
BUT having a better gear means progressing raid faster so I care about my character power, not gear itself.

What I care way more is having fun. Static gear means I will be running same boss, same dungeon until I puke.
That is why static gear is boring. Not because I am bored looking at stats.

You very clearly care about gear lol

- - - Updated - - -

No, it's correct to blame them. WF/TF existed for a reason. These people needed to ask themselves "what's the alternative solution to the problem WF/TF solves?"

Chesterton's Fence, I tell you.

There was no problem to be solved. Being able to finish a character isn't a problem.

[Kaver]

You very clearly care about gear lol

Yes because without Titanforging he cant outgear the content of the game and he'll never be able to do it. This is why these bad player wants Titanforging. It's like playing with cheat codes.

"Oh you're not good enough to kill this boss? Don't worry. You don't have to improve and become better at the game. You'll just get all this gear (which you've done nothing to deserve) so you can ignore mechanics and beat the content."