When would cybernetics no longer make a person be human?

[Zuben]

Watched Battle Angel Alita the other week. The characters in it had a lot of character despite having mostly robotic bodies, so I'd say as long as we have that we are human. At the earliest I think we'll start losing it when we begin getting neurally symbiotic with an advanced AI.

[The Butt Witch]

Read Battle Angel Alita both the first and the second manga series, that´s basically the theme going on trough all of it.

That story makes no sense.
How can a human brain just be put in a box for decades, without receiving any oxygen or nourishment, and still survive?
How can someone with a quarter of the opponent's mass and strength, be able to defeat him in physical combat?
How was a prosthetic body meant for civilian use, be able to be used for heavy combat?

[Polyxo]

I would think in kind of a very gradual, ship of theseus sort of way, you're still you. The question becomes more interesting and unsettling when you think about instancing of consciousness. If there's a machine, or even a biological body that's grown that's given all your memories, and is structurally the same as you, is it you? If you die, and another 'you' is built or grown that picks up where you left of, is that immortality, or just something else that thinks its' you? This theme's kind of being explored in Westworld, and was explored really well (to a really disturbing degree) in SOMA.

My assumption is that "you" only extends, as far as you're concerned, to the particular instance that's running, like any other program. The states of any other instance don't matter to 'you'.

[The Butt Witch]

Servitors and Skitarii in Warhammer 40k universe aren't human.

Servitor: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Servitor
Skitarii: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skitarii
While the a Skitarii soldier is more advanced than a Servitor, all that made them Human is gone.

[Dezerte]

Honestly I don't know. It makes you wonder though, about what consciousnesses is and how it works.

[zEmini]

You would technically become a Cyber-Human the moment you require mechanical parts to function. If you are fully turned into a robot with a artificial brain then you become a Mecha-Human ... but the title of mecha just might be limited to changing the brain.

[Shadowferal]

That story makes no sense.
How can a human brain just be put in a box for decades, without receiving any oxygen or nourishment, and still survive?
How can someone with a quarter of the opponent's mass and strength, be able to defeat him in physical combat?
How was a prosthetic body meant for civilian use, be able to be used for heavy combat?

You obviously didn't follow the story at all...

[PC2]

You would technically become a Cyber-Human the moment you require mechanical parts to function. If you are fully turned into a robot with a artificial brain then you become a Mecha-Human.

People already are cyber or mecha-humans though. Your experience is generated by software in your head and that software is independant of the underlying substrate. So what your made of doesn't change anything important.

If you have a different body then that new body could have better (20/10) eyeballs or stronger muscles, but those won't directly change the person's mental experience.

[Shadowferal]

^I really believe you think that.

[PC2]

^I really believe you think that.

Hmm? Are you saying the mind isn't entirely based on software? I can't tell where our disagreement is.

[Shadowferal]

^Go anywhere.
Our differences are too deep seated...well at least from my perspective. "Depth" is something I don't believe anyone has ever accused you of ever being.
The brain and the mind are two different things (to me). One of which retains the qualities of humanity...

[zEmini]

People already are cyber or mecha-humans though. Your experience is generated by software in your head and that software is independant of the underlying substrate. So what your made of doesn't change anything important.

If you have a different body then that new body could have better (20/10) eyeballs or stronger muscles, but those won't directly change the person's mental experience.

The difference is what is organic and what isn't.

Related, Cyborgs require BOTH mechanical and organic parts to survive. So a person with just a mechanical leg isn't a cyborg, but a person with a mechanical set of lungs would technically be one.

[Mayhem]

I am talking about evolution to our physical form, if any happens now it will be much more subtle and mostly internal unless something major happens to our environment then we could have wild evolutionary changes down the long road ahead.

Wait, what, why? Do you think evolution is triggered?

[PC2]

The difference is what is organic and what isn't.

Related, Cyborgs require BOTH mechanical and organic parts to survive. So a person with just a mechanical leg isn't a cyborg, but a person with a mechanical set of lungs would technically be one.

Okay so my claim is that a concept like "organic" does not mean anything and it has the connotation that a particle like Carbon plays a special role in the human mental experience. It's just a molecule that happened to have the right amount of protons and electrons to make it very flexible and useful for an evolutionary process. A physical substrate could be Carbon or Silicon or whatever and it could be used to accomplish the same tasks and goals.

[omeomorfismo]

Oh we're definitely shrinking in body mass as well.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...ted-themselves

How humans (maybe) domesticated themselves
Tameness may have been selected for in our own species, researchers suspect


By Erika Engelhaupt
July 6, 2017 at 12:00 pm

TO BE OR NOT TO BE TAME In the last 200,000 years, humans may have weeded out members of the species that displayed more aggressive traits. Researchers point to differences between human (left) and Neandertal skulls that indicate tameness.

How humans (maybe) domesticated themselves ... TO BE OR NOT TO BE TAME In the last 200,000 years, humans may have weeded out members of the species that displayed more aggressive traits ...

why using a neanderthal for comparison? he isnt even our ancerstor...

[Endus]

You obviously didn't follow the story at all...

Seriously, right?

Her brain had oxygen and nourishment. That's how it was still alive.
Force = Mass X Acceleration. It's honestly weird people focus on "mass" and not "acceleration" in that equation. Bruce Lee was a fantastic fighter and the dude was not big.
Her first replacement body was Ido's intended body for his daughter, which would have been top of the line for a civilian unit. And in the end, it DOESN'T hold up in combat; that's sort of an integral plot point. Her second body, of course, is a top-shelf combat unit, way better than anything else walking around, so by that point his argument is just wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

The difference is what is organic and what isn't.

Related, Cyborgs require BOTH mechanical and organic parts to survive. So a person with just a mechanical leg isn't a cyborg, but a person with a mechanical set of lungs would technically be one.

Why do you think this matters?

What magic do you think exists within the lump of fatty tissue in our skulls that could not, hypothetically, be remade with technology? Or, indeed, improved upon? Just for starters; memory that isn't a constantly-rewritten dream we tell ourselves (seriously, human memory is not great).

We don't have that tech now, but we're talking about a hypothetical and fairly near future. These are leaps we're nearly at the cusp of, as it stands; we're already developing cybernetic prosthetics which tap into brain impulses directly for control.

[Tabrotar]

Servitors and Skitarii in Warhammer 40k universe aren't human.

Servitor: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Servitor
Skitarii: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skitarii
While the a Skitarii soldier is more advanced than a Servitor, all that made them Human is gone.

Nope they´re still human, as in WH40k no thinking machine can be build, the best thing they have is closly watched and restriced automatons with handlers.

[Shadowferal]

What magic do you think exists within the lump of fatty tissue in our skulls that could not, hypothetically, be remade with technology? Or, indeed, improved upon? Just for starters; memory that isn't a constantly-rewritten dream we tell ourselves (seriously, human memory is not great).
We don't have that tech now, but we're talking about a hypothetical and fairly near future.

Since you're talking hypothetical I can't argue. Although I certainly disagree.
But that has to make you wonder why in "Alita's" world, the writer didn't come up with making another brain.
But then, I suspect like many, he believes in spirituality...a "ghost in the shell" as it were.

[zEmini]

Seriously, right?

Her brain had oxygen and nourishment. That's how it was still alive.
Force = Mass X Acceleration. It's honestly weird people focus on "mass" and not "acceleration" in that equation. Bruce Lee was a fantastic fighter and the dude was not big.
Her first replacement body was Ido's intended body for his daughter, which would have been top of the line for a civilian unit. And in the end, it DOESN'T hold up in combat; that's sort of an integral plot point. Her second body, of course, is a top-shelf combat unit, way better than anything else walking around, so by that point his argument is just wrong.

- - - Updated - - -



Why do you think this matters?

What magic do you think exists within the lump of fatty tissue in our skulls that could not, hypothetically, be remade with technology? Or, indeed, improved upon? Just for starters; memory that isn't a constantly-rewritten dream we tell ourselves (seriously, human memory is not great).

We don't have that tech now, but we're talking about a hypothetical and fairly near future. These are leaps we're nearly at the cusp of, as it stands; we're already developing cybernetic prosthetics which tap into brain impulses directly for control.

Well one is grown naturally the other is built?

[Shadowferal]

The natural one is called a "brain" which directly correlates to the mind.
The "unnatural" one...(a loaded word I admit), would correlate to artificial intelligence.