Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[Rennadrel]

What a surprise, our wannabe American doesn't acknowledge that the NDP exists.

The NDP are irrelevant as they have never held a federal majority in their existence. Heck, they can barely win provincial elections. Oh hell, they couldn't even win Ontario was an absolutely demolished and disenfranchised Liberal voter base that was pissed off at the OLP (myself included) against a former crack dealer. The NDP have never in 59 years, held a majority federally and only once been the official opposition. That's pretty pathetic.

Not to mention, I was merely speaking about the Liberals, and don't really care about the minority parties that don't have much sway in the House of Commons. Also, your bullshit commentary about my political leanings are hilarious. Here's a tip on which parties I've voted for in the elections that I've been eligible to vote in. Liberals, NDP, NDP and Green in the last 4 federal elections, and I've voted NDP in every Ontario election since I was 18. Amazingly, I vote for the people I believe in, not the party leaders. And I sure as hell don't believe in Jagmeet Singh, he's worse than Mulcair. I've always been a left wing voter, even if I don't support all of the ideologies of left wing parties.

[Ivanstone]

Running AGAINST the party got Trump the nomination

Trump never ran against the GOP. He was lock step with every single policy. He was just louder and more abrasive about it.

[Theodarzna]

Trump never ran against the GOP. He was lock step with every single policy. He was just louder and more abrasive about it.

He, when he was not even trying to win nor cared to win, said he would not back the GOP nominee in public on national television if the party made him mad.

Now compare that with Sanders who absolutely could wreck the DNC by saying "Yeah guys, don't vote Democrat".

Trump basically threatened a party he had zero history with and zero friends in, and not even a person the GOP had any data to consider a threat. And that shit worked, they buckled to him and his campaign.

[Ivanstone]

He, when he was not even trying to win nor cared to win, said he would not back the GOP nominee in public on national television if the party made him mad.

Now compare that with Sanders who absolutely could wreck the DNC by saying "Yeah guys, don't vote Democrat".

Trump basically threatened a party he had zero history with and zero friends in, and not even a person the GOP had any data to consider a threat. And that shit worked, they buckled to him and his campaign.

Yeah except you're forgetting one thing. The GOP could've nominated a toaster and still have gotten the exact same result. You and the other regressive shitheads would still vote GOP because who else are you going to vote for?

Furthermore, Sanders could say that but even if he did virtually nothing would happen. This election is a referendum on Trump. Biden is a sub-par candidate but if he campaigns decently he'll easily beat Trump.
[Infraction]

[Theodarzna]

Yeah except you're forgetting one thing. The GOP could've nominated a toaster and still have gotten the exact same result. You and the other regressive shitheads would still vote GOP because who else are you going to vote for?

Furthermore, Sanders could say that but even if he did virtually nothing would happen. This election is a referendum on Trump. Biden is a sub-par candidate but if he campaigns decently he'll easily beat Trump.

I didn't actually vote for the GOP, in fact I pretty much vote on the State level however the Teachers Union says to vote. Federally I don't care that much.

The election is a referendum on Trump only in the eyes of the perpetually salty "StillWithHer" crowd who have smoked scripts of Racheal Maddow like Joe Biden's son smokes crack.

[Vash The Stampede]

I fully expect Joe Biden to support Medicare for All if he wants Sanders voters. He has little reason not to support M4A during a pandemic. Also, he needs the votes because so far Biden looks like he'll lose against Trump.

[d00mGuArD]

And you don't change it by having zero political power because you intentionally didn't vote.

Think about it like this:
Which states have more voting power? California? Texas? Or the "Swing States"?
The answer is known to everyone: States where everyone knows what they will vote for, have less voting power.
Everyone is catering to the so called "swing states" to try to earn their vote.
The only requirement to be a swing state is "you can change your mind". Then everyone is trying to do you favors.

The same thing with voters. The only ones with actual power, are those that do not declare allegiance, and those that do not vote.
Everyone tries to please those. They actually matter more.

[Blur4stuff]

Simply opening up Medicare isn't good enough. Even though the deal seniors get is fairly good compared to all of the shitty insurance plans out there, it's still too expensive for tens of millions of people. You'll still have too many people never bothering to get anything done because they can't afford it. Then a year later a $1k problem turns into a $50k problem.

Deductibles need to stop existing at the very least. People should never have to pay more than $10 for any type of regular medication either.

[Draco-Onis]

Mkay, so if Romney or Mccain had won (the only two other options) then we'd have been in a... more progressive society? What?


You're really burying the lede, here. The options were not, and are not, "A democrat or a republican or a third candidate."

It's "a democrat or a republican." If you're a progressive... you vote for the most progressive candidate.


You can gnash and rave at the system all you want, but that's the way it is. And you don't change it by having zero political power because you intentionally didn't vote.

Just because the system is horrible doesn't change how he governed, it's always the lesser of two evils choices especially for democrats.

- - - Updated - - -

No, he was actually progressive, and still believes in progressive idea, and then spent 2 years with a Dem Congress trying to reach out to Republicans to bring them along......and then spent 6 years having them obfuscate everything. I don't even know if you remember that he started on in universal health care at single payer. And Republicans shut down the government.

His major area of conservativism was on foreign policy, with his drone strike policy. American foreign pollicy has been backwards for a good 50 years under both Dems and Republicans.

Look at Obama's record he was never a progressive candidate he just wrapped himself as such he was more than willing to get rid of single payer didn't even bother fighting for it. Obama spent most of his time carefully crafting his legacy, he even offered to cut social security for a "grand bargain". Obama spent 2 years negotiating with blue dog democrats trying to preserve their precious seats which they lost anyway. The ACA was better than what we had but what we had was nothing so not really a high bar.

[Mihalik]

sip

Ignoring the deranged rants, I'll repeat this one more time for you.

When the coming elections look like a cointoss, when the turn out will likely be incredibly low, you picked a candidate who is half disliked and half ridiculed (and easy to attack on dozens of personal issues), who also happens to be borderline SENILE, and in the process you went out of your way to antagonize a good third of your own base.

You are getting Trump reelected. You are giving the House to the GOP. You are giving the SCOTUS over to Republicans for an entire generation.

This is on you. Say whatever nonsense you want now. Just remember in November, this is your fault.

- - - Updated - - -

Biden probably won't have any impact on it either.

"Wouldn't". Because if this direction holds... This election is lost.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I dislike Trump. I won't vote for him. But I see this as another 2016. The Democrats have managed to find another loser to put up against him. I mean the guy forgets what he is talking about constantly. Fumbles and then freezes weekly mid thought. Has a history of being touchy feely. Then it looked a hitjob when just about every candidate suddenly dropped out and backed Biden on the eve of Super Tuesday. So the DNC looks like for the second time in a row to have assassinated Bernie which for some reason turn the furthest left people in the States to Trump. I say all of this as someone that thinks Joe probably would have been ok a few years back when he was younger and more mentally agile. As someone that thinks he is an alright guy when it is judged on the politician scale. Hell as someone that wants him to win because I dislike Trump.. but.. I think they managed to lay another egg that won't hatch and it mostly boils down to rich DNC fucks wanting rich people to get thier way. Personally I think the DNC has degenerated almost as far as the GOP and a real third party is what this country needs. It just won't happen sadly.

[Ghostpanther]

I dislike Trump. I won't vote for him. But I see this as another 2016. The Democrats have managed to find another loser to put up against him. I mean the guy forgets what he is talking about constantly. Fumbles and then freezes weekly mid thought. Has a history of being touchy feely. Then it looked a hitjob when just about every candidate suddenly dropped out and backed Biden on the eve of Super Tuesday. So the DNC looks like for the second time in a row to have assassinated Bernie which for some reason turn the furthest left people in the States to Trump. I say all of this as someone that thinks Joe probably would have been ok a few years back when he was younger and more mentally agile. As someone that thinks he is an alright guy when it is judged on the politician scale. Hell as someone that wants him to win because I dislike Trump.. but.. I think they managed to lay another egg that won't hatch and it mostly boils down to rich DNC fucks wanting rich people to get thier way. Personally I think the DNC has degenerated almost as far as the GOP and a real third party is what this country needs. It just won't happen sadly.

Not really. Biden got the most votes. Or you saying the DNC arm twisted the voters? Bernie wasn't cheated this time. He lost because his message did not get the approval he wished for.

[Bodakane]

The amount of animosity and scorn levied at Bush was nowhere near the level of trump.

Virtually all of your post, outside of the Obama stuff, is you attributing to me things I never said nor implied. There was a lot of animosity towards W. Many of us felt like he was the worst POTUS in modern history. Many of the arguments for thinking Biden should one the nom to beat Trump were EXACTLY the same used for Kerry (ie policies don't matter, we need someone safe the moderates and independents can get behind, etc.), that obviously failed. Many people were talking about saving the country, blah, blah, blah. We HAD to just get rid of W then we could worry about being liberal later.

Then came Palin (read: worse than W). Then came Trump (read: worse than all before him). And during all that, the Dam strategy hasn't changed. The right gets farther right, the "left" keeps putting up centrists.

Nor is Trump "just another ol' politician" whom we can idly tow the line on while we wait for prince charming to show up and take us all to the progressive ball.

Never said nor implied he was.

But it is a self fulfilling prophecy. The Dems approach to defeating the right is the same as the right's approach to gun reform after a tragedy.....now's not the time! But again, Bernie could win, Warren could win, except the Dems, as an organization, were pushing Biden. That effort, by the Dem power, swayed a lot of people.

I don't care what the "well actually when you compare Obama to the chart of all global politicians..." truism says. I'm talking about the caliber of him as a progressive compared to other American presidents.

Because that's the only metric that actually matters in the end.

I don;lt care that you don't care, to be frank. You don't get to rewrite the definition. Liberalism and Conservatism aren't relative. Following your ridiculous notion, would mean W was liberal because he's left of Trump. It's a dumb position.

I really don't know where you're getting this idea that, by huffing and stuffing and being pouty, but never voting and poo-pooing anything but politicians that kow-tow to your every whim, that society is somehow magically going to start changing in a way you want it to. Tell me, how has that worked thus far?

Again, I said nor implied none of that. It does shine a big old light on you guys and your hypocrisy though. You act like people who wanted Bernie or Warren are unreasonable, yet here you are so crazed, you are inventing an argument and pretending it is mine.

As I've said a 100 times, I'll vote for anyone not Trump. I was merely explaining why this constant capitulation by the Dems is making Repubs go more and more to the far right and if we want to reverse that course, we need to an actual progressive counter to it, instead giving in.

[Spectral]

Not really. Biden got the most votes. Or you saying the DNC arm twisted the voters? Bernie wasn't cheated this time. He lost because his message did not get the approval he wished for.

Quite a few people really seem completely unable to develop the kind of theory of mind that would let them process the reality that other people simply don't share their views. This is hardly specific to supporters of any particularly candidate, but it's incredibly noticeable with the Bernie people. Despite being a relatively small group that supports policies that aren't actually very popular, they manage to come up with all sorts of rationalizations for how their guy is actually the voice of the majority and is just being cheated. It's really quite remarkable - we should all take a lesson from it.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Not really. Biden got the most votes. Or you saying the DNC arm twisted the voters? Bernie wasn't cheated this time. He lost because his message did not get the approval he wished for.

Twisted in a way. They had lots of options. Suddenly all the options disappeared and those options all backed "Joe is the guy" and that is a powerful thing. For it all happen at once is pretty suspect. Sure, crazy things can happen. But I seriously doubt every single one of those camps suddenly about faced from going against Joe to suddenly ditching and backing him within the course of a week without some coordination.

[I Push Buttons]

Twisted in a way. They had lots of options. Suddenly all the options disappeared and those options all backed "Joe is the guy" and that is a powerful thing. For it all happen at once is pretty suspect. Sure, crazy things can happen. But I seriously doubt every single one of those camps suddenly about faced from going against Joe to suddenly ditching and backing him within the course of a week without some coordination.

Of course there was coordination... That coordination was "none of you have a realistic path towards nomination, so you staying in the race does more harm than good..."

And they are all both highly intelligent and members of the Democrat establishment, so it was quite easy for them to go "yep, you're right, I'll drop out..."

How is the Democratic establishment uniting behind one person to win underhanded in any way whatsoever? Especially when Bernard's primary strategy, which was overtly stated from the beginning by his surrogates, was to sneak into the nomination by obtaining a small plurality of the vote by relying on the Democrat field being huge and divisive, with all the establishment candidates all siphoning votes from each other and holding each other back, all the way until the convention?

[Ivanstone]

The election is a referendum on Trump only in the eyes of the perpetually salty "StillWithHer" crowd who have smoked scripts of Racheal Maddow like Joe Biden's son smokes crack.

Or maybe people are just tired of a hideously corrupt, racist administration that seems to be doing its damnedest to get people killed.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Of course there was coordination... That coordination was "none of you have a realistic path towards nomination, so you staying in the race does more harm than good..."

And they are all both highly intelligent and members of the Democrat establishment, so it was quite easy for them to go "yep, you're right, I'll drop out..."

How is the Democratic establishment uniting behind one person to win underhanded in any way whatsoever? Especially when Bernard's primary strategy, which was overtly stated from the beginning by his surrogates, was to sneak into the nomination by obtaining a small plurality of the vote by relying on the Democrat field being huge and divisive, with all the establishment candidates all siphoning votes from each other and holding each other back, all the way until the convention?

Glad we agree. My worry is they put someone in that is on the boarder of dementia as the "realistic" winner. I get this skin crawling feeling of Hillary 2.0. Trump is just going to come at him as old, falling apart, and will have sound bite after sound bite to play showing it. I only hope he doesn't have a lock and freeze while debating Trump on stage or even worse a fumble and forget for all the world to see on the grand stage. Don't get me wrong, if you had read my other posts you would know I actually want him to win, I dislike Trump, but I have my worries. Both parties really lack real leadership. It is how Trump, an outsider, managed to jump up and grab the GOP, and with the DNC they just seem more about propping up lame old has been's or hopes to be's and putting them up against someone that won't play by the rules and won't pull punches.

To many years of career politicians and paid for and put in office puppets has really vacuumed leadership at the top in my opinion. Of both parties.

[Beefhammer]

A progressive president would have an impact on the trend of growing wealth inequality.

Obama didn't have any impact on it at all. Trump has had a negative impact on it (caused it to grow even larger within the USA).

Biden probably won't have any impact on it either.

Obama never campaigned or pretended to be anything near progressive.

[lockedout]

Obama never campaigned or pretended to be anything near progressive.

Well Bernie just dropped out so it looks like Biden is just gonna lose to Trump.