AoE Changes in Shadowlands, Shadowlands Developer Interview - Ion Hazzikostas

[Sencha]

As long as future expansions include world quests and mission table I'm out.

[dieiamgi]

I'm very Happy with these proposed changes! I think I will re-sub if I can just pvp and solo dungeon for decent gear and not have to pve, or get gear that actually kills me...

[Recovery]

LOL kids are so cute, you really think nerfing the overal AOE of rogue/DH is going to make your paladin or warlock suddenly viable? Rogue/DH had solid aoe damage it's true, but so do a lot of other classes, it's the fact they also come with solid utility and mobility. Unless they decide to change that, rogue and DH will still be the meta with a hunter or mage for lust

Yeah, and most of that utility is in such demand because of that aoe damage. You dont need demon hunter stuns, or darkness, etc if youre not pulling 20+ mobs. The mobility is negligible because youre going to be pulling the dungeon slower anyway. Rogues will still be valuable if they keep mass stealth. But if they change aoe so that the point in pushing high keys isnt pulling every mob you can pull, then single target high damage to end boss fights faster will become more valuable.

Also, youre assuming that Rogue / DH AOE damage will be the samein shadowlands when you wont have those Azerite traits, essences, and corruptions that make it what it is currently.

Maybe we will see some diversity in key pushing during shadowlands. instead of the ONLY dh rogue fire mage. Id love to see some Ele Shamans in the mix, especially since theyre getting totems back.

[Aekero]

As usual Ion says all the right things...but his words ring fairly hollow at this point.
Heard some of the same stuff with regards to titanforging, then they added corruption which is exponentially more broken. (Then we hear "the team missed the mark severely")
Was it really that hard to realize? They're so broken and it would take almost zero awareness to know that before they went live. What exactly were they thinking?
I enjoy the idea of WoW but it's _always_ suffered from the devs telling us what we want. There are other games out there that listen to feedback way more and they've done well. Once again, not sure what to think when I hear "we could do a better job listening to feedback" 16 years later......ya think?!

P.s. - with almost no incentive for high level raiders to dip into lfr, it'll be interesting to see what happens to it

[Recovery]

As usual Ion says all the right things...but his words ring fairly hollow at this point.
Heard some of the same stuff with regards to titanforging, then they added corruption which is exponentially more broken. (Then we hear "the team missed the mark severely")
Was it really that hard to realize? They're so broken and it would take almost zero awareness to know that before they went live. What exactly were they thinking?
I enjoy the idea of WoW but it's _always_ suffered from the devs telling us what we want. There are other games out there that listen to feedback way more and they've done well. Once again, not sure what to think when I hear "we could do a better job listening to feedback" 16 years later......ya think?!

This. They'e been saying "we can do a better job listening to feedback" since the dawn of WoW. lol. Truth is, they don't care. Its sad, especially since wow could be such a great game if they would just LISTEN to feedback, instead of always believing that they know best.

The community has told them far enough in advance SEVERAL times that their systems are shit. They refuse to change it. WQs > refuse to change. Artifact power > refuse to change. Personal loot > refuse to change. Forging? took them 2 expansions to finally listen. Professions? Largely negligible > refuse to make it worthwhile again.

They do not listen to the players who love their game and idk that they ever will.


I mean this man literally said, "players who are capable of excelling in both pvp and pve should have an advantage in either". Hes so out of touch with the audience that he doesnt even realize it has nothing to do with whether or not people are CAPABLE of EXCELLING in both sides.. It has everything to do with the fact that people dont ENJOY both sides. If you dont like pve, you shouldnt be forced into it. Same goes for pvp. You should have NO advantage in either if you dont enjoy one or the other. NO advantage. Period. This is why resilience worked so well. It kept people who liked pvp balanced amongst each other but it was bad in pve. On the other side, if you qd pvp solely in pve gear, youd get pooped on due to no damage mitigation. it was perfect. IF you did want to do both, you could easily farm a gear set for each. Im positive of this, because i did it for years.

Also, let's face it. We know what wow devs mean when they say stuff like, "if you excel at both sides you should have a slight advantage. It means, "go do dragon soul, get ridiculous trinkets and legendary weapons and then literally solo a 3s team as a rogue." Blizzard has never been capable of balancing "slight advantage". Anything they try to give a slight advantage to turns into something that LEAGUES above everything else.

[Eapoe]

You know what else is ridiculous? Peddling your opinion as if it were fact.

Imo, the speed at which you finish a dungeon should be determined by the groups gear levels and skill levels. If the group can handle pulling 2 packs together while focusing priority targets (not only pressing their aoe buttons and nothing else like you imply), they should be able to damage the 8 mobs.

Not this shit you like where its detrimental to pull as much as your group can handle.

This change does allow that, but takes out the class aspect. Gear level and skill now has a chance to apply to every spec/class, not just Rogue/DH AoE kings and queens. If this change goes thru it has a chance to get rid of any kind of meta groups and stigmas while allowing players of any spec/class in.
Now, I will state that the current groups also bring utility others don’t have and that’s part of the issue, but the biggest part is the disparity in mob damage with current large group pulls.

[hyphnos]

Sounds like more of his usual blather of pretending to listen to feedback while saying "we hear your feedback but you didn't make it specific enough" so we ignored it but it was really because we don't give a shit what you think. Sunk costs, suck it.

[bloodykiller86]

As long as future expansions include world quests and mission table I'm out.

thats the dumbest thing ive heard yet lol

[Tesshin83]

How can people not see that this is freaking impossible? They can't balance three goddamn mage specs within 10% of each other, but they're supposed to balance three mage specs with 4 unique covenant abilities, 12 additional unique soul bind trees, and god knows how many unique legendaries?

This is hilarious. Blizzard has to know themselves that they can't do it; I can't for the life of me understand why they're trying to make us believe they can rather than changing course and actually finishing our classes, rather than adding all this BS.

When will you people understand that a balanced mmo basically means every class and specc is the same with just different animations. Dull as F***

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds like more of his usual blather of pretending to listen to feedback while saying "we hear your feedback but you didn't make it specific enough" so we ignored it but it was really because we don't give a shit what you think. Sunk costs, suck it.

I am so happy they don't listen to all the feedback. This community doesn't even know what they want, and if they did, they would change their mind the next day anyway.

[zeropeorth]

with the xmog system, couldn't you just ... get the cosmetics on alts? Your main(s) pick what is best for your game play and you still get the cosmetics. Will have to see if it is possible or they do some asinine restriction.

The aoe thing, if they did it for server performance, I'd find it a smart move. Maybe we can give feedback, that if this change is mostly for Mythic+, make this change only affect the abilities during mythic+ instances, leave us to do crazy shit in the world and farming old instances (where you pull the entire instance and one shot it, this change would mean 10 gcds to kill 100 mobs? So if you were farming rivendare's charger, you couldn't pull all the trash in a ball, one shot it, so you can make looting convenient and quick). I don't think it will matter, affect most people to be clear. Outside of Mythic+ and an occasional power player in the world, how often do you really see people pulling packs over 10 mobs in the open world?

We just have to give feedback on the alpha/beta and on official forums. Some rational discussion, descriptive with suggestions, and respectful. This is at least miles better from anything alpha/beta BfA, more like Mists level of interaction.

[Shefu]

the aoe thing wont affect old raids/dungeons,they wont make mobs immune to dmg passed a certain number,they will have diminishing returns,and in old raids you have bonus dmg,also no1 is pulling many mobs in old raids,you are just rushing to bosses,also you dont make huge pulls in the world,this change is to stop the very extreme cases of people pulling in m+ huge pacs,and that will only affect the top players that knew how to pull it off,you averege m+ weekly player would get anihilated by more than 6 mobs pulled in m+

No offense but you sound like someone who 1) doesn't grind old raids on a regular basis 2) doesn't do much questing, WQ, or grinding in general! Maybe you're the type that just pulls one mob at the time because of the class you play.

[Kiri]

How can people not see that this is freaking impossible? They can't balance three goddamn mage specs within 10% of each other, but they're supposed to balance three mage specs with 4 unique covenant abilities, 12 additional unique soul bind trees, and god knows how many unique legendaries?

This is hilarious. Blizzard has to know themselves that they can't do it; I can't for the life of me understand why they're trying to make us believe they can rather than changing course and actually finishing our classes, rather than adding all this BS.

Probably by having trade-offs. I am talking about the non-hardcore people, who won't make and gear four mages just to have all covenants available just in case. For most of these people, they will probably have situations like "covenant A is better at AoE, covenant B is better at ST," etc. As long as the differences aren't as massive as to have one class being a liability with the wrong covenant, they will work for most players.
Kind of, you know, like classes themselves do? Classes aren't perfectly balanced against one another either, with some being better in say M+, others in raids and such. It's not optimal, but all classes are still being played. It's not all that different. This game has had these kinds of imbalances for years. I fail to see how this is just so much worse.

It's just the natural conundrum of a game like this: if you offer choice, one will always be better than the other. If you want choices that are different and meaningful, you have to accept that some will be better for some scenarios and others for other.
As always, those who play competitively want homogenization - they don't want meaningful choices, since they always pick the optimal one anyway and would like that to always stay the optimal one. That's why sports have unified rules at high levels for just about anything. And others, who are more into the role playing aspect of the world and such want varied, meaningful choice to individualize their character.

Blizzard is in the unenviable position of having to please both of those. They pleased the homogenization crowd before and suffered backlash for it. Now they swing the pendulum the other way. Someone will always complain. If covenants had no meaningful choices, people in these forums would be crying about how they are just like normal factions. As a developer, you probably give up at some point trying to not get complaints and just pick and choose which ones you want to hear, haha.

[MidnyteTV]

And just like that, my hype for the expansion has been crushed.

Here's why:

"No plans to bring back Master Loot.
If you look back to Classic, loot was a reward and a goal. There was randomness, sometimes things didn't drop, but it wasn't that random. Eventually you would get an item. Once you had it, it was done, you didn't have to worry about sockets or Titanforging.
The team is going to reduce the amount of loot that drops in Shadowlands raids."

So, how you got gear in classic --> most guilds had DKP, which meant you had control of your loot somewhat. Now they are continuing to take control away from players still and making it harder to get loot. And pray to RNJesus that loot drops.

[Relapses]

Serious question.

If you are cynical enough to believe that Blizzard "doesn't listen to feedback" or "listens to the wrong feedback," how would you propose Blizzard begins to listen to the "right" feedback? What would you propose? A voting system?

- - - Updated - - -

And just like that, my hype for the expansion has been crushed.

Here's why:

"No plans to bring back Master Loot.
If you look back to Classic, loot was a reward and a goal. There was randomness, sometimes things didn't drop, but it wasn't that random. Eventually you would get an item. Once you had it, it was done, you didn't have to worry about sockets or Titanforging.
The team is going to reduce the amount of loot that drops in Shadowlands raids."

So, how you got gear in classic --> most guilds had DKP, which meant you had control of your loot somewhat. Now they are continuing to take control away from players still and making it harder to get loot. And pray to RNJesus that loot drops.

As long as M+ provides an alternative gearing path, you may still have a way to fill in slots with different pieces while waiting on RNJesus to bestow upon you the gear you seek. I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad as it was in WoD but we still don't know enough about how gear in general will work in the expansion to make any concrete conclusions.

[TheRevenantHero]

You know what else is ridiculous? Peddling your opinion as if it were fact.

Imo, the speed at which you finish a dungeon should be determined by the groups gear levels and skill levels. If the group can handle pulling 2 packs together while focusing priority targets (not only pressing their aoe buttons and nothing else like you imply), they should be able to damage the 8 mobs.

Not this shit you like where its detrimental to pull as much as your group can handle.

Except the meta right now is aoe EVERYTHING. No tactics. No skill. Just round the adds up and AoE damage as much as possible. So limiting how many targets you hit will actually require groups to think and plan.

- - - Updated - - -

you do realise its the casuals who pay for your "high content" ?

well i bet you dont - dont worry you will once you will go back to 7 boss raids.

what i see is perfect shitstorm in making.

everyone will be pissed - i mean literaly everyone.

raiders because convenants abilities and legendaries

casuals because they have nthng todo

mythic + because they wont be able to aoe anymore.

seems to me like a lesson in making what happens when "community " thinks that they know what they want.

100% this. Punishing players who aren't hardcore is just going to cause a MASSIVE drop in subs. Because most people who play now are "casuals". So with them having nothing to do and not getting meaningful rewards, they're just not going to play the game anymore.

[MidnyteTV]

Serious question.

If you are cynical enough to believe that Blizzard "doesn't listen to feedback" or "listens to the wrong feedback," how would you propose Blizzard begins to listen to the "right" feedback? What would you propose? A voting system?

- - - Updated - - -



As long as M+ provides an alternative gearing path, you may still have a way to fill in slots with different pieces while waiting on RNJesus to bestow upon you the gear you seek. I don't think it's going to be nearly as bad as it was in WoD but we still don't know enough about how gear in general will work in the expansion to make any concrete conclusions.

Problem is, I am not a fan of Mythic+. Not my cup of tea. I like raiding, especially in a guild. Blizz has made this endeavor very difficult for me and others.

[Relapses]

Problem is, I am not a fan of Mythic+. Not my cup of tea. I like raiding, especially in a guild. Blizz has made this endeavor very difficult for me and others.

Understandable. Ironically, I used to exclusively raid and now all I tend to do is M+ so I'm looking at this from a slightly different perspective. (Though from past conversations I know you and I are on the same page about ML.) I'm still cautiously optimistic that Blizzard understands not everybody likes to do all content so hopefully there aren't too many situations where it feels like you have to do content you don't enjoy to get a reward relevant to the content you do enjoy.

[Darknessvamp]

Inb4 Emberforged, Bloodforged, Soulforged, Orderforged, Boneforged, Natureforged or Anima-bound loot. "iT's nUt WaRForGeD lOOt gUiSe ItS tOTaLly diFFeReNt!"

Also what is with Ion's problem and going "Oh we need to take Feedback more seriously" and "We've heard your feedback but we want something else thanks" in the same interviews all the time? Is he just an idiot? People have told you what they think of the GCD changes, begging them to say something else isn't going to change that.

[Ashamane]

Don't worry, Ion will still find a way to fuck everything up. That's what he does.

Unfortunately I can't help but agree with you there. There were a lot of good things said in the interview but unfortunately I have no hope that will actually translate to a good game.

[scvd]

you mean this mode they removed from game because it failed and next to nobody was using it ?

hm

ye shadowlands will be such a success ^^

Ah yes, they never get it wrong, and they're never removed anything good before.

The only reason Mythic is still in game is because of loot that Challenge mode just didn't offer, and WOD kind of killed most aspects of the game going forward.

Ridiculous comment to make.