Let loot be Loot - Ion2020

[Relapses]

To some. I can see it as a power creep issue. But as an incentive to keep playing it's no different than Thunder/War. Just have wider ranges the loot can fall into. It's still an upgrade over normal gear.

The original purpose of Warforged was to push players into 25M Heroic raiding back in ToT. Once that was removed in WoD it just became an extra incentive to do raids. And since WoD's only real content was raiding this worked. (Personally, I feel like WoD had the best gear paradigm that the game has seen.)

Once Blizzard moved to the "open world" change in content with Legion, Blizzard said fuck it and pushed the lever all the way in the opposite direction. The problem WF/TFing was intended to solve -- making all content relevant -- came at the price of gear becoming way, wayyyyyy too plentiful. It solved the problem but I think it generally made gear feel a lot less special. And like I said in a previous post, it kind of made gear become this meta game of Skinner boxes where the likelihood of having a negative experience (gear didn't TF or didn't TF enough to be an upgrade) was far higher than the likelihood of a positive one. Yes, that one in one thousand positive experience was a great feeling ... but I think the devs realize designing an entire gear system around this ideology may have been a bit overboard. In SL it looks like they're once again turning the dial back in the other direction so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

edit: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52222746

Here's a post where I shared my thoughts on WF/TFing before Alpha was announced. I guess I predicted the future for a third time. :3

[Nubulous]

add t this something which officers dreaded for year - aka half of raid beggning if they coudl bring in their low geared alts "because i have nothing to get on main" slowing farm night tremendously.

so many bad things will return for guilds

will be so funny to watch

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oh im sure you will be - just like people who went into TBC glad they will get rid of 15 people aka dead wieght that was slowing them down .

untill person who will quit will be your main tank or best dpses with teh reasoning "listen X,Y,Z happened irl gotta take break till next tier"

So you replace them it isnt hard...we had to replace a tank twice this expansion and almost the entire healing core. RL shit happens regardless

[Donimic]

From someone lower down the chain:

I don’t want to give people a reason to run content they outgear. That’s an enormous problem for the pugging community. Most of the people who give pugging it’s bad name are people who outgear the content and are outrageous elitist assholes to the people who are still learning.

gear doesn't make, nor does the lack of it prevent people from being assholes. they just are.
and by current definition, you cant outgear M+ since it has infinite scaling... on the other hand, I don't think you realize how much it helps you even have the PuG community to even have people doing the content at all. As someone who normally does +18-20 keys, I often pick some random +10 to help out but now if If there is no reason for me to do a key then I just wont, whereas now there is a change I get a lucky TF.

Also, this only worsens the "asshole" where people complain about people leaving a failed key 1/2 way through. You are taking away the only intensive for finishing a key there is for people who are properly geared. If a key is dead and I or anyone else is not going to get an upgrade why even bother finishing a PuG at all.

[Nubulous]

BC and Wrath was different. When guildies got geared up, they got poached by other guilds instead of quiting.

Im sure that too would also the case but they didnt just outright quit like was mentioned

[Barzotti]

So you replace them it isnt hard...we had to replace a tank twice this expansion and almost the entire healing core. RL shit happens regardless

I guess you can replace them easily in solid mythic established guilds. I had several people in my only heroic guild in WoD "mysteriously" disappear after progress. People are not so easily replaceable in tight knit normal/heroic guilds.

[Philomene]

It seems that some people should play Diablo instead of WoW if they want a RNG-based reward system

The game worked more than fine before this bullcrap systems, glad they’re apparently gone even if I’ll believe it when I see it.

What about you quit the game if you’re unhappy like millions of players did ? Maybe Blizz can actually see what the community really wants

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They need ad some incentive for me to do lower end content or it gonna get boring fast with no ap or chance of lucky titanforge. If not majority of heroic/mythic wont bother with anything under heroic current raids or mythic+10-15. That's why i liked it was a small chance i could get something while helping normal mode guilds finish their runs.

But why should you run some lower level content ? I mean if you want to endlessly run RFC because it might drop an upgrade maybe you should just play D3 instead of WoW. The game worked fine for a decade while having a clear path of character upgrade. If you’re raiding mythic you have nothing to do in heroic/mythics dungeons. Nothing’s wrong with some content not dropping upgrades.

[Backstabak]

I don't get it how someone can defend the current gearing system. You get showered with gear so much that you are practically done within first two weeks of raiding. You then just continue going and spinning wheel of fortune for that slight upgrade if it TF the right item and the right amount. Does that really make someone happy if you get 5 ilvl upgrade, do you notice it even ? Yet it still forces people to do the same content over and over just for that tiny chance of getting the right item with right TF, just as casino incentivizes people to continue spinning the wheel even though the chances of winning are tiny.

This game also used to have a ton of optional stuff you could do. A lot of reputations were optional, they weren't required for progression and didn't reward any gear, yet people still did them once they had time for them. I also remember that I used to PVP quite a lot, because raiding and gearing wasn't endless as it is now, which I don't really have time for now nor e.g. alts for that matter.

[The Oblivion]

thank god. this is amazing news. now if they put flying in at max level, i would be on board lol

[Beefhammer]

The big difference was that Thunder/Warforged didn't improve an item over the next tier of difficulty.
A TF Normal mode item was not better then a regular Heroic Mode item so you didn't run into the issue that you already outilvl the drops of a new raid difficulty before you even entered it.
Nothing like sharding half the items on your guilds first Mythic kills because everyone already had better loot.

1%er problems are not a concern for the rest of us.

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The original purpose of Warforged was to push players into 25M Heroic raiding back in ToT. Once that was removed in WoD it just became an extra incentive to do raids. And since WoD's only real content was raiding this worked. (Personally, I feel like WoD had the best gear paradigm that the game has seen.)

Once Blizzard moved to the "open world" change in content with Legion, Blizzard said fuck it and pushed the lever all the way in the opposite direction. The problem WF/TFing was intended to solve -- making all content relevant -- came at the price of gear becoming way, wayyyyyy too plentiful. It solved the problem but I think it generally made gear feel a lot less special. And like I said in a previous post, it kind of made gear become this meta game of Skinner boxes where the likelihood of having a negative experience (gear didn't TF or didn't TF enough to be an upgrade) was far higher than the likelihood of a positive one. Yes, that one in one thousand positive experience was a great feeling ... but I think the devs realize designing an entire gear system around this ideology may have been a bit overboard. In SL it looks like they're once again turning the dial back in the other direction so it'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

edit: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52222746

Here's a post where I shared my thoughts on WF/TFing before Alpha was announced. I guess I predicted the future for a third time. :3

You got a source on that? I don't recall them mentioning that back then. But it's been a while.

[Relapses]

You got a source on that? I don't recall them mentioning that back then. But it's been a while.

From Blizzard:

Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.

[Beefhammer]

From Blizzard:

Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.

Yes, I now remember reading that. TY.

[dryla1]

That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders

yeah removing 10 man raiding at the end of the expansion was not a slap in the face was a kick you know where.

Seriously reading this post that otaxephon has linked makes hard as hell to believe in anything these guys say

[Gorsameth]

That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders

yeah removing 10 man raiding at the end of the expansion was not a slap in the face was a kick you know where.

Seriously reading this post that otaxephon has linked makes hard as hell to believe in anything these guys say

That only matters for Mythic raiders, which this thread has repeatedly told me are a tiny % of players that do not deserve to be catered to.

[dryla1]

That only matters for Mythic raiders, which this thread has repeatedly told me are a tiny % of players that do not deserve to be catered to.

Try to find a guild interested in doing heroic raiding with just 10 people, i tried in BFA, can you imagine my success?
They killed 10 man raiding in any difficulty, now read the post again, they lie more than politicians.

[Relapses]

Try to find a guild interested in doing heroic raiding with just 10 people, i tried in BFA, can you imagine my success?
They killed 10 man raiding in any difficulty, now read the post again, they lie more than politicians.

Because designing two versions of every fucking encounter didn't have drastic side effects? Come on dude. They're not going to change that shit in the middle of an expansion but you're completely fucking delusional if you don't see how the 20M Mythic compromise has been far more sustainable.

[MoFalcon]

Probably the biggest change i miss from Vanilla....

Epic loot was Epic...and RARE!

it was a special happening when a piece of purple gear dropped. you linked it and everyone wondered how you got it and where you got it....and you were one lucky bastard.

Now, I know they wont go that far, but something close would be nice.

[dryla1]

Because designing two versions of every fucking encounter didn't have drastic side effects? Come on dude. They're not going to change that shit in the middle of an expansion but you're completely fucking delusional if you don't see how the 20M Mythic compromise has been far more sustainable.

And i do not care, again read what they say in the post you linked, if that is not a blatant lie knowing what they did to 10 man raiding at the end of that expansion, merely months after that post, there are no lies in the world, as simple as that.
Even if what they did was the better solution, something i do not agree with, but even if it was they still fukin lied in our faces, period.

[Volitar]

Reminds me of how he keeps saying there's no AP grind and people insist there still will be one because its the same letters as AnImA pOwEr!!!!1

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii mean.............

they said the same thing about Azurite not being the same as Artifact power and look how that turned out.


They get 0 faith because they've earned 0 faith.

[facefist]

Probably the biggest change i miss from Vanilla....

Epic loot was Epic...and RARE!

it was a special happening when a piece of purple gear dropped. you linked it and everyone wondered how you got it and where you got it....and you were one lucky bastard.

Now, I know they wont go that far, but something close would be nice.

Its not just the game though, its the playerbase also. I mean go look at peoples' gear in vanilla after a few months of release. People are fucking stacked now that everyone knows what to do. Gaming has gotten way more serious lately and people do their homework to progress faster in games.

[kaminaris]

iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii mean.............

they said the same thing about Azurite not being the same as Artifact power and look how that turned out.


They get 0 faith because they've earned 0 faith.

Because it wasn't the same. It was next, way better iteration of it.

Original AP was spec specific token based system with numbers reaching some milliards or trillions.
No hardcap

Azerite power was both softcapped and hardcapped for each patch, class wide system that continuously nerfed itself over time.

Anima power is hard weekly capped, class wide system, covenant bound that you will be also able to spend on some cosmetics.


In the end it will work the same as Azerite power for people without OCD and we will also be able to spend it on cosmetics.