If anyone says "It's Alpha, everything will change"

[barrsftw]

But this is getting out of control

For some reason people feel high and mighty about the covenant situation.
Claiming it is crap and should be scraped.

They are simply wrong.

100%. Demanding being able to change covenant on a whim is ridiculous. Heaven forbid we make meaningful choices in this game... Next they'll demand you can change your class because Mages sim better than Warlocks in single target, therefore I should be able to change my class in a rest area!

[Lurker1]

Please just stop. Why would you give them the benefit of the doubt when the last 3 expansions were terrible despite the feedback.

Just assume the expansion is gonna be similar to how it is in the alpha like the past 3 expansions were (and probably every expansion before that).

As it stands, classes got some spells/utility back which will improve pvp the most, rotations still lack depth and require hardly any actual skill to play properly so pve will still be mad boring unless you don't care about this.

Some stuff will change and toolkits will become more well rounded at level 60. But the gameplay will be nowhere near as interesting or fast paced as MoP.

Maybe people will be satisfied with playing WoD 2.0 or Legion 2.0 but imo every expansion after MoP was super watered down so I'm not really looking forward
to anything.

Thing is i know this is shocking what im to tell you but i hated legion and loved bfa i hope sl is more like bfa bigtime soon!

[Nerovar]

Sounds like you are the triggered one.

You're the one who replied to my post. I just laughed at a meme.

[Accendor]

Again, that's not the best course of action at all. Especially if you're still passionate about the game and remain active in it. I already play other games and am productive in some areas, while also still finding enjoyment in WoW going about my own niche activities. It's not that I don't agree with the premise that they don't listen to feedback, I align with that train of thought at as well, but it seems like an odd notion to advocate to just taking things as they are rather than be passionate or fuel discussion about changes to a game/product you actively consume.

There's nothing inherently wrong with having the passive mentality like yours, I just can't promote the idea that we should just sit idly by and do nothing.

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By not doing anything you actually do something. If everybody shows apathy and disinterest in the game and the alpha / beta it might serve as a lesson for the future and the expansions after shadow lands.

Being passionate about the game in its current state and the bleak looking shadowlands is... not something I would say about myself.

[Huggykaze]

Please just stop. Why would you give them the benefit of the doubt when the last 3 expansions were terrible despite the feedback.

Just assume the expansion is gonna be similar to how it is in the alpha like the past 3 expansions were (and probably every expansion before that).

As it stands, classes got some spells/utility back which will improve pvp the most, rotations still lack depth and require hardly any actual skill to play properly so pve will still be mad boring unless you don't care about this.

Some stuff will change and toolkits will become more well rounded at level 60. But the gameplay will be nowhere near as interesting or fast paced as MoP.

Maybe people will be satisfied with playing WoD 2.0 or Legion 2.0 but imo every expansion after MoP was super watered down so I'm not really looking forward
to anything.

You are forgetting Soulbinds or what's their name.

IMO every expansion after TBC was super watered down so I'm not really looking forward to anything. Herp derp. Stop wasting your time playing game you obviously dislike, mate. It will be better for everybody.

I completely agree that Blizz cannot be trusted when it comes to listening to feedback, not only that, they cannot be trusted to have a plan of action. However, losing your shit on forums does not help. If you think something is bad or requires fixing, provide sensible and detailed feedback. But be aware that certain things can be fixed with tuning, so do not go batshit crazy like some tik tok teen if your feedback doesn't get implemented.

Lastly, people who say "it's Alpha everything will change" in regards to mechanical and system design issues are as fucking stupid as people who go batshit crazy over people saying "it's Alpha everything will change" in regards to tuning and balance. Not that balance is that important. In other words, stop thinking in absolutes...

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By not doing anything you actually do something. If everybody shows apathy and disinterest in the game and the alpha / beta it might serve as a lesson for the future and the expansions after shadow lands.

Being passionate about the game in its current state and the bleak looking shadowlands is... not something I would say about myself.

Sir, you have no idea how feedback works, do you? If nobody says anything it means everything is fine. If game starts losing subs with no feedback it will just mean devs running around like headless squirrels set on fire for a good measure, trying to solve invisible issues that they can't pinpoint. This will lead to a very quick death of the game at the hands of corporate rats. If you are not passionate about what the game is becoming, then it's a very good reason to passionately (albeit in a civilized and composed manner) argue this direction.

It's fine to be passive or disinterested in the game, even if for whatever reason you keep playing it; however, I cannot for the love of spaghetti monster condone preaching this kinda behaviour.

Also, of all 4 post-MoP expansions, Shadowlands is looking by far the best. Is it looking better than MoP? This will depend on the Soulbind system and Torghast, but it has a lot of potential depending on how the class changes go. It it looking better than TBC or WLK? Nothing will ever look better than TBC.

[sam86]

Legion's class design was worse and it added AP, Legiondaries, titanforging and reduced the max camera distance. Quantity of content doesn't make up for making the game worse in those aspects to me.

for me a paladin both tank and dps were ok, healing however is just getting worse since MoP (last good healing exp)
Healing used to be unique, if u play dps u suck at aoe healing, u have weak aoe healing with long cds, u have to be fast and fast heal ppl as u can
Now every healer is almost same copy of another, druid the ex-master of hots now have crap hots and mediocre single target/aoe healing? wtf? i don't play druid to spam single target heal, and yes their hots are crap in compare to MoP era, i know they are still 'best' but in compare to wrath or mop they are complete bullsh8t
Legion for its amazing artifact system and look dropped the balls in healing the most, the most hardcore time of me playing was as healer, healing is the most special spot for me in wow, and i feel since MoP healing is just getting worse and worse every exp and blizz refuse to return to the old unique old system since it made some classes OP in some fights
Which i had ZERO problem with, i don't mind my pally is shit in that t-rex fight in SoO as long I'm godlike in the box combat, give that spot to discs and druids, that what made healing fun, when each class had its own style

[Vasoka]

Please just stop. Why would you give them the benefit of the doubt when the last 3 expansions were terrible despite the feedback.

Just assume the expansion is gonna be similar to how it is in the alpha like the past 3 expansions were (and probably every expansion before that).

As it stands, classes got some spells/utility back which will improve pvp the most, rotations still lack depth and require hardly any actual skill to play properly so pve will still be mad boring unless you don't care about this.

Some stuff will change and toolkits will become more well rounded at level 60. But the gameplay will be nowhere near as interesting or fast paced as MoP.

Maybe people will be satisfied with playing WoD 2.0 or Legion 2.0 but imo every expansion after MoP was super watered down so I'm not really looking forward
to anything.

Thanks for letting us know how you feel, it's really important for us to know. BB now.

[Luxeley]

You're 100% correct and don't let anyone dictate otherwise. Blizzard lost all benefit of the doubt after BFA and even the good will they've built up over the years is running on fumes. Whatever is on the drawing board for Shadowlands right now is going to make it in the game, no major changes will be made. And, if Blizzard deems something to complicated or not necessary, they'll simply delete it before they even think of tweaking it. The Alpha and the beta merely exist for players to hammer out bugs and provide feedback for future change in future patches.

[Multitorix Davlen]

Who exactly asked for blue eyes for blood elves? We've been asking for HIGH ELVES for ALLIANCE and they give us blue eyes for belfs like wtf... this is like the ye olden request of "Hey give us high elves..." and blizz be like "We are proud to Introduce.. VOID ELVES..." at that point my faith in their customization ability faded. Cause next we'll ask "Wildhammer dwarves maybe?" and they'll be like "Here's VOIDDWARVES... or LIGHTFORGED DWARVES" cause they got no idea.

At this point, If they are genuine then let us simply have a normal skin option, blue eyes or even golden eyes for VOID ELVES so that people who wanna look high elf can do so, easy, done, boom. And now when you're in combat you turn void elf when you fight, just like Alleria does, you know, the MAIN BIG DICK VOID ELF WHO IS ABLE TO STAY HIGH ELF AND TURNS VOID ELF WHEN IN COMBAT? How silly It'd be to take her as the BASE EXAMPLE of the entire race, right?

Anyway, they still haven't given us account wide essences, we don't have that. What they gave us is a way to mad their own MAU instead of allowing us to get the essenses which ontop of Azerite is a broken system already.


What account wide essences? You mean "If your alt wants them go grind them for a few weeks and you get them" that's just padding their MAUs

I've seen plenty of people asking for blue eyes for BLOOD ELVES. Because what are blood elves? Oh right, high elves that decided to change their common racial name in remembrance of the elves that died to the scourge. We've also already asked for wildhammer dwarves, and we're getting their customization in the form of their tattoos for regular dwarves which have been datamined along side the blue eyes for blood elves. The void elves are a separate issue as the reason for their customization is because of the power they decided to go with (same for blood elves, that's why their eyes are green). The reason Alleria doesn't have the same customization as other void elves is because blizzard wanted to make her a sailor moon (real reason is because iconic characters have their own rules and it doesn't have to make sense for them in relation to the player characters or even other NPCs.)

Additionally, despite your complaint on MAUs, we DO have account wide essences. The effort needed to get them onto your alts is no where near the hyperbole you're making it out to be. If you wanted to be as lazy as possible but still play the game in the ways you want, you can EASILY get 1 a week. Just because you don't like the way the system works for your alts doesn't mean the system doesn't exist.
Quick edit here. Im not telling you to like it, that's not what i'm saying. You can dislike it all you want. But to say it doesn't exist because of some lame ass excuse of MAUs is very telling of the level of bias you have.

[Haywire5714]

There should be a rule on here that if OP posts a thread then never returns to it, it should be closed. There's far too many whiny blog posts here that people post then never actually take part in the discussion. They just create threads to whine rather than actually discuss what they post about. This thread is a prime example.

Okay buddy you asked for it.

so what you're saying is that we should give up? yes the last expansion wasn't the greatest when it came to feedback but that doesn't mean this one will be. so far the changes have been pretty damn well received, Blizzard is communicating sending out lots of information in addition to the data mining. they are being more open than before which is great.

Nah you shouldn't give up, what i'm saying is you should fully expect that the next expansion will be a slightly better BFA or similar to WoD/Legion and nothing more. If you want to play another expansion like that then all the power to ya. People (specifically streamers) are excited because they are making changes in the right direction, but a lot of those same streamers have already realized that these changes are not nearly enough to get the game into a good place. They will try their best to give feedback but I ultimately think it won't bring the game (at least gameplay wise) anywhere close to where it was in MoP.

Subjective af. Been playing since the last few months of Vanilla, and Legion is my favorite expansion.

And yes - "It's Alpha, some things will change"

Thats wonderful that Legion was your favorite expansion dude, I'm so happy for you. Except I'm not because it doesn't make 1 bit of difference. Legion might have made more people happy than the other shitty expansions that came before and after it, but it also did a lot of things wrong that ruined the game for a lot of people including contributing to the prune fiesta which has been my main gripe since MoP.

You're right that some things will change, and that's exactly the problem because it's not nearly enough. I don't want to play a shitty version of a previous expansion, I want things to improve over time. MoP wasn't a perfect expansion in terms of gameplay, but it had the groundwork for something great. What they should have done was removed "SOME" unnecessary spells, but preserved as much depth as possible; instead what they did was they removed the groundwork completely and redesigned every spec to be complete shells of what they were previously, it's really sad.

But it IS Alpha.

Your only job in Alpha is to give feedback constructively, and hope they read it. And I recall a lot of beta feedback just being, "this is shit" kind of discussions.

Well in the beta "this is shit" is the only feedback you can give because they aren't going to change shit once the beta starts. I read the feedback rigorously from the past 3 expansions and I can tell you for a fact there was a lot of good feedback. But it was pointless because they were already set in stone on their direction that they wanted to take the game back then, despite the community wanting the exact opposite.

And if you haven't had fun for three expansions now, that means you haven't enjoyed this game for at least six years now, right? Since they come out every two years. Why are you wasting so much time and energy into something yourself admit you haven't been interested in since MoP came out in 2012? That's a lot of time gone that you'll never get back.

I haven't invested much time at all into WoW after I stopped playing in WoD. I just keep tabs on the game during alpha/beta cycles to see if they're moving in a backwards or forwards direction because I've dedicated a lot of time and effort into this game and I want it to succeed.

I won't argue that they could have listened more during the BFA beta, but they've made a lot of solid changes during the expansion based on feedback. The entire essence/necklace traits system, as an example, was a direct result of player feedback - specifically that the necklace was little more than an AP grind and timesink for Azerite traits.

And whether or not you want to admit it, players are a big part of the feedback/communication problem. When a huge portion of the 'feedback' basically distills down to 'LOL DO U RETARDS EVEN PLAY UR GAME'... I wouldn't engage with the community either.

In an ideal world I wouldn't even want Blizzard listening to player feedback because the vast majority of players only think about what they like and not how their specific interests effect every other aspect of the game. But then again, I lack faith in Blizzard doing things on their own because player feedback during alpha/beta (specifically in regards to gameplay) had no effect on the outcome of the previous expansions since Blizzard devs obviously had their own direction/plan in mind ... and that plan resulted in the game being complete dogshit.

people need to understand one simple fact...its their game,they will make how they want,its not a ''take a poll to vote on features and changes online'',all you can do is give feedback on stuff,and play it or not

Blizzard is a company that wants to make money. It's in their best interests to design all aspects of the game around what the vast majority of people enjoy the most. So in a sense, "voting on features and change online" would probably be better than what they do now, although not a perfect system since the vast majority of players don't understand all aspects of the game and how certain things positively/negatively effect other things.

First of all, Legion was amazing. IMO it was the best expansion they've ever made and the only expansion where I've played a ton of different characters.

Second of all, MoP's gameplay and especially class design wasn't all that great, at least not when it comes to PVE. MoP was also the expansion where class homogenization was at its peak, with each class being a builder/spender design and with each one having roughly the same toolkit.

MoP was my 2nd best xpac and I loved and defended this xpac when everyone was hating on it. I liked the asian theme, sense of exploration and most of its content. But ffs why do people on this forum always forget what the expansions were actually like a few years ago and suddenly praise every aspect of them as the best thing ever? I distinctly remember that class homogenization was the next greatest issue about MoP after it's theme. And now, a few years later... apparently everyone thinks that MoP had it the best out of all.

I played a healer so I can't confirm or deny this statement of "each class being a builder/spender design" but I can promise you that even if this was the case, then every expansion that came after it would have had the specs being even more focused on buildeing/spending while also lacking depth in comparison. Also its true that classes were very homogenized which was a problem, but that's a much better problem to have then every class lacking in utility and depth because it was all pruned away. And I'm not saying MoP was perfect ... I just want the gameplay to be in a similar state as it was in MoP so that they can make improvements from there (such as not making the classes so homogenized). In terms of MoPs content I thought the leveling and dungeons were the worst I've ever seen, and the legendaries were lame and not very legendary since pretty much everyone had 1.

[FelPlague]

Ion is that you?
they did jack shit with the feedback, and when people said to them we gave you feedback they deleted the forum and said there was no feedback.

i mean that didnt happen but k.

[Zyrinx]

The OPs point is that, especially in BFA, feedback was sought too late and ignored. That's not really in dispute.

It sure FEELS like this is a different approach but really only time will tell.

[DemonDays]

What...?
rotations are more skill based then ever
or do you really think pressing shadowbolt and nothing else for a whole fight was skill based?
you say pressing rotations is hardly any skill, but then you look to dps websites and its a huge spread, so obviously its not true, there is those who can get the max out of it, skill and dedication, then those who cant.

Posting in a thread where FelPlague once again has compared current rotations to 15 years ago - Classic. Not capable of doing a fairer comparison like MoP are you champ?

Feel free to comment on how you've been proven wrong and the developers clearly disagree with you. They're finally listening to the overwhelming feedback that class design in BfA was indeed dogshit and they pruned far too much.

The fact that you can't grasp that in BfA over 50% of your damage comes from uncontrollable RNG sources is baffling.

They're finally returning more control into the players hands.

The developers finally listened.

Or you can keep living in denial.

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i mean that didnt happen but k.

It did happen.

Lore said "We just didn't get the feedback we needed on Azerite Armour, we're sorry."

Then when people in the thread were replying to him to prove him wrong they found that the Beta forums had been deleted in the last 6 hours.

Continue to ignore the truth though.

[Gasparde]

i mean that didnt happen but k.

Yea, people totally didn't give them any Shaman feedback.
There were no ominous 30-page feedback threads that were just silently deleted by someone.
And they totally didn't then come out and say that the community didn't give them enough feedback on Shamans.
That is totally not what happened. It's all a hoax. Like the earth being round.