It's Time To Do Away With The Holy Trinity

[Tyrannica]

Strange. I never had to wait hours. Though I played as healers or tanks.
Maybe the real issue is DPS is what needs to be removed since they have the longest queues, make everyone either a tank or healer instead for the shorter queues!

yeah maybe lol

In fact, i was a tank in back in cataclysm and got instant 5man ques, but when playing a dd spec i waited for about 45min, each time and no matter what time of the day. only happened in early cata, though.

In any case, that holy trinity issue creates problem in puggable content and in unorganized content.(at times)

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This is a person who does not actually know what he wants and at the same time does not understand the implications of what he is asking. In short, its someone who just doesnt think things through and would never do research on a subject before speaking publicly about it.

you are wrong here i was tank in all of cata and a healer in all of mop, i have a good view on the issue at hand.

its all fine when you run with a guild or organized group, but once you fill up spots with randoms the problem of the holy trinity will become an issue. And sometimes even a que system like early cata 5 mans.

[schwank05]

I even dislike the current approach that healers have to DPS in their downtime. That's keeping me away from healing.

I rather the trinity system stay

Yes, I refuse to dps as a healer, unless playing Disc. and I don't play them since they killed them in WOD.

[BeepBoo]

This is the player type tanks dont want to deal with, so dont q for randoms.

k

This is the player who brags about ripping aggro from tank 3 times and dies, then blames tank and heals.

nope

This is the player who pulls extra adds, gets killed and blames the group.

Still nope. I'd pull extra adds, but I wouldn't die. Further more, if I did, I wouldn't blame others.

This is the player who afks before boss pull and blames tanks for not checking with him first.

Still nope. I 'm the player complaining people are taking too damn long to pull the boss because someone else got up and didn't hit "ready"

This is the player who shames healers for their low dps, but bitches when he dies while standing in fire.

Nope. I don't stand in fire and I don't give a damn if healers do 0 dps.

This is the player who watches the tank cover all interrupts, stuns, disarms and cc. Cuz rotations are hard.

lolno.

This is the player who actually thinks his flexing impresses anyone but his right hand a d imaginary boyfriend.

I don't care if it impresses anyone else. I'm impressed by myself because it's obvious I'm carrying a sluggish pug group of plebs and it's an inarguable fact.

This is the player people avoid like the plague and depends on LFD cuz there are no other options for his toxic, selfish, naive self

My orange parses and mythic kills with a guild say otherwise.

Why do you pretend to know me when it's very clear you don't basically nothing in that list is right. I don't blame others for when I do some big dick stuff and it goes poorly, which also basically never happens anyways.

Stop trying to write me into your close-minded narrative where big dick swingers are also plagues on the game. Git. Gud.

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Can't tell if this is sarcasm/hyperbole or not.
But this type of play is EXACTLY why people don't try tanking and why tanks stay away from pugs. A fresh tank in normal dungeons gets rushed by DPS, but if they try to go into harder content to learn, they get crushed by mechanics they aren't geared/ready for since they haven't had a chance to we their toes yet.

Not hard to use the vast amount of resources out there to learn before ever setting foot into the dungeon itself. People who can't take the heat need not apply anyways, but the game should be designed to not need those people or rely on a particular type of (very rare) person for random match making to function.

I miss the days when, as a tank, if someone pulled, I could just let them die. They could then leave or learn.

I don't. I enjoy blowing through the faceroll content without a concern or need for teammates. I'd do mythic raids solo if I could.

[bigbleach]

The mechanics that made the holy trinity work are mostly long gone (threat management). Right now, the holy trinity is a vestigial appendage that only serves to make it more difficult for people to get into the content. It also restricts design decisions by making bosses hit so hard that you need tanks and healers, preventing creative solutions to encounters.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have classes with tank and healer toolkits, but those roles should be altered to fit a model that does not require them.

Lol, you said threat management lol. Threat management has never... literally ever... been hard. You either had to wait for a few sunders and slow DPS when the tank couldn't hit the boss... but that was about it. The trinity works. I'm certain there are games that do not follow this, I believe DCUO is kinda like that. I remember not really having tanks, healers/supports yeah, but everyone kinda just tanked everything... the only thing that did was make it hectic and make the gameplay feel... ugh. Idk, do people even talk about that game anymore?

[Alcsaar]

If you want to play a different genre of game, please do. Otherwise, you've presented no coherent arguments here.

If tank shortage is your concern there are 6 SIX! tank classes. Learn to play one.

Learning to play a tank doesn't matter if you don't enjoy the play style, that doesn't solve anything.

[BeepBoo]

Again, that's actually very restrictive. "Every dungeon must have adequately placed healing orbs!".

And "every dungeon must be run with a tank and healer and 3 dps" isn't also restrictive? Both designs have to operate under a set of assumptions. I'd prefer the one that makes no assumptions on the form of the group and is flexible enough to enable that.

[Haytur]

The problem is not the trinity the problem is not many ppl find support roles (tank, healers) fun so less people play them. This is true in all games with group mechanics and support and damage classes. So moba and overwatch etc.

This doesn’t mean it’s broken. I can’t imagine a fantasy mmo with out it being fun. A game where everyone is dps is just bleh. What I would like to see however is more solo content, maybe that is not limited in attempts.

Also let me remind you, they did try content and do have content not requiring the triad and it wasn’t overly popular which was scenarios

[NineSpine]

Lol, you said threat management lol. Threat management has never... literally ever... been hard. You either had to wait for a few sunders and slow DPS when the tank couldn't hit the boss... but that was about it. The trinity works. I'm certain there are games that do not follow this, I believe DCUO is kinda like that. I remember not really having tanks, healers/supports yeah, but everyone kinda just tanked everything... the only thing that did was make it hectic and make the gameplay feel... ugh. Idk, do people even talk about that game anymore?

I never said it was hard so.... ok?

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name a legitimate MMO without the holy trinity then... If its not integral there should be plenty of examples

Your phrasing makes it very clear that anything I name either won't be considered "legitimate".

For the purposes we are discussing (instanced group content), Destiny is very comparable. Destiny has fantastic complex boss fights and no set roles.

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I didn't say the whole game was a mess. I said its content was. Specifically its fractal and open world content, which is all PvE. Or have we missed how everything is basically one large zerg, where everyone builds for maximum damage? If you can cite some specific examples of MMO design that has gotten around this intelligently, or design some yourself we can discuss that. Otherwise this is all just a pointless back and forth.

Everything you are describing is a function of homogenization, not of a lack of required roles.

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I didn't say the whole game was a mess. I said its content was. Specifically its fractal and open world content, which is all PvE. Or have we missed how everything is basically one large zerg, where everyone builds for maximum damage? If you can cite some specific examples of MMO design that has gotten around this intelligently, or design some yourself we can discuss that. Otherwise this is all just a pointless back and forth.

Everything you are describing is a function of homogenization, not of a lack of required roles.

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If you want group content then you need others to bring something to the table you can not do on your own. Homogenization is looked down on for this very reason. Allow everyone their moment to shine... to overcome something greater than yourself... that's the purpose of grouping and gaming with others.

The trinity is homogenization: Three roles. Im advocating a system that can move away from three distinct roles. A spec can be more control heavy, a hybrid healer/dps, a hybrid healer/tank, etc..

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"Don't be a dick to your tank" has nothing to do with design.

If the game encourages shitty attitudes toward tanks, thats a design problem.

[Trend]

Cool story bro, but the point remains that there used to be meaningful threat mechanics and now there are not.

And threat mechanics were never fun for the majority of players. There are a lot of things that used to be in the game that were really just tedious bullshit. If you enjoy that stuff, Classic is there waiting for you. Waiting for sunders and standing there picking my nose for a minute because I'm too high on a meter list isn't going to get me excited.

In regards to your broader point, it's just not going to happen. WoW isn't going to do that kind of massive experimentation and risk throwing away the millions of subs they still have going. I am skeptical that your suggestion is anything more than a flaming turd, but if anyone is going to pull off a role-less MMO it will be a new game with nothing to lose.

[Shinrael]

Why would I bring a tank to a raid or dungeon if it's not required when DPS does more DPS?

Because the game could be designed about DPS not being everything? If the mechanics of the fight require it, you will switch from a DPS talent to a defensive talent for example. Same thing.

OP: You try to bring about an idea that defies everything that this game's players are used to. I am all for interesting and innovative ideas, but you should reconsider your audience. MMO-Champion is more of a mob than an audience. No matter how good your idea is and how well it is argumented, they will simply tear you down for sport. And it isn't a well argumented idea in the first place, so....

[Niter]

How about improving the UI, so tanks going through a dungeon for the first time do not feel like they have to know everything or be open to abuse?
How about making tanks be able to choose between increasing their damage quite a bit or increasing their defensive capabilities?
How about making tanking specs more engaging, instead of having a 'maintenance button' to feel like their gameplay is more dynamic than it really is?
How about having a very brief window in which tanks have a CD to be nearly invincible?

Such changes would help people play tanks more often, making group content more readily available to more people, even to those not interested in playing tanks.

As for DPS, there could be some 'counter-attack' measures whereby some monsters would retaliate immediately DPS pulling more mobs or messing up with the tanks ability to round them up before everyone blows CDs to AoE everything. That would be a way to help DPS not ruin the run, all the while encouraging tanks and healers not to be afraid of pricks who are full on "GO GO GO GO".

Giving healers some bursty healing options, so all specs feel like they have a way to respond to things going south too quickly. Empowering their damaging abilities would be great as well, so people who do not love playing healers already feel like they have a reason to try these specs and feel less squishy, or maybe they could get some cool effects, because right now every single spell effect that Healers got is bland or a lesser version of what a full blown DPS spec has.

These would be my thoughts on making group content more engaging to anyone without killing the trinity. Although I see a lot of merits in games without it, and I myself would support WoW ditching it, the way the game works is based around it, and the troubles regarding group play are not the product of the way the trinity works, but rather how daunting and uninteresing tanking is, how bland many healing specs are, compared to DPS specs with shiny options and flavour, all the while being the ones to blame when things go wrong. If players need to step up and have more responsibility, then making it a lot more fun than it is right now is essential.

[EntropyWarrior]

I think they need to increase DPS slots in raids/parties by either increasing group sizes from 5 to 6 or decreasing incoming damage while requiring higher outgoing damage. This should lead to raids taking fewer healers and more dps. Fact is in my mythic guild the hardest part of every raid was getting enough healers, healing sucks and is boring for most people.The trinity is good design but there will always be far more DPS than healers and tanks.

[SirReal]

As a tank main, I would queue up more if a few things happened regularly:
• DPS didn't pull over the tank
• DPS learned how to use their interrupt button
• DPS did more damage than me

Healers ya'll are fine.

Exactly. This is my point from above. There's not really a tank shortage, plenty of people do and like to play a tank. There's a shortage of people who want to tank PUG content with people who make it harder/slower/less fun.

[Drench]

The mechanics that made the holy trinity work are mostly long gone (threat management). Right now, the holy trinity is a vestigial appendage that only serves to make it more difficult for people to get into the content. It also restricts design decisions by making bosses hit so hard that you need tanks and healers, preventing creative solutions to encounters.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have classes with tank and healer toolkits, but those roles should be altered to fit a model that does not require them.

No? If you don't want a old style MMO go play one of the new popular (lol) ones.

[ClassicPeon]

yeah maybe lol

In fact, i was a tank in back in cataclysm and got instant 5man ques, but when playing a dd spec i waited for about 45min, each time and no matter what time of the day. only happened in early cata, though.

In any case, that holy trinity issue creates problem in puggable content and in unorganized content.(at times)

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you are wrong here i was tank in all of cata and a healer in all of mop, i have a good view on the issue at hand.

its all fine when you run with a guild or organized group, but once you fill up spots with randoms the problem of the holy trinity will become an issue. And sometimes even a que system like early cata 5 mans.

Thats not what i'm talking about. Your lack of knowledge comes from thinking that the other system is better.

What you are asking for is literally GW2 pve. And its DEAD. That game's pve is literally Dead. Why dont you go play it?


This is the defacto worst idea anyone has ever had to improve wow. Stop it. Just... stop. Go away. Try and play GW2 then come back and realize your mistakes, or stay there and play gw2 as the only people in the universe.

[Jinpachi]

The mechanics that made the holy trinity work are mostly long gone (threat management). Right now, the holy trinity is a vestigial appendage that only serves to make it more difficult for people to get into the content. It also restricts design decisions by making bosses hit so hard that you need tanks and healers, preventing creative solutions to encounters.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have classes with tank and healer toolkits, but those roles should be altered to fit a model that does not require them.

I say reintroduce threat management and tie it directly to damage, but give tanks talents (passive) that multiply the threat times (x) percentage, that way you don't have to gimp tank dps output.

[Djaye]

k

nope

Still nope. I'd pull extra adds, but I wouldn't die. Further more, if I did, I wouldn't blame others.

Still nope. I 'm the player complaining people are taking too damn long to pull the boss because someone else got up and didn't hit "ready"

Nope. I don't stand in fire and I don't give a damn if healers do 0 dps.

lolno.

I don't care if it impresses anyone else. I'm impressed by myself because it's obvious I'm carrying a sluggish pug group of plebs and it's an inarguable fact.


My orange parses and mythic kills with a guild say otherwise.

Why do you pretend to know me when it's very clear you don't basically nothing in that list is right. I don't blame others for when I do some big dick stuff and it goes poorly, which also basically never happens anyways.

Stop trying to write me into your close-minded narrative where big dick swingers are also plagues on the game. Git. Gud.

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Not hard to use the vast amount of resources out there to learn before ever setting foot into the dungeon itself. People who can't take the heat need not apply anyways, but the game should be designed to not need those people or rely on a particular type of (very rare) person for random match making to function.


I don't. I enjoy blowing through the faceroll content without a concern or need for teammates. I'd do mythic raids solo if I could.

Every single comment that comes out of you screams over entitled, selfish, naive, ignorant, small minded, spoiled and arrogant. Whatever you say to defend yourself, you cant do in any way that doesnt make you look selfish and self centered. The two things that plague the player base of pugs.
I lump you into that category because that is exactly what everything you type puts you in.
You feel this whole game and playerbase should be played how you want it. You are not willing to give complete strangers not as familiar with no lifing content to the point of knowing every stupid aspect of it, patience.
I think your parents should have just hit you everytime you crapped your pants as a kid and see how you turned out.
Your attitude towards the game and playerbase is toxic and a disease.

[Jinpachi]

It would be fun seeing Raidfinder-Ronny dealing with chaotic aggro switches.

That it would

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There also used to be dinosaurs on this planet, doesnt mean i still have to be careful about em to not get eaten by em.

Agro management has been removed since cataclysm and the holy trinity still works even without it. If anythin even better now since tanks actually got todo somethin other than spammin sundering for 30sec and then be a meatshield for 3-5min.

That's part of the problem of the old design, they attached threat generation to a specific ability instead of making it a passive multiplier tied to dmg. That limit(s)(ed) gear choice for the player. In a system where overall dps between classes is within a few percentage points of each other, you can be more flexible with your comps. The problem with tanks/healers as I see it is their shit damage that people don't want to waste time gearing two sets for. I'm fleshing this out as i type so if anyone has any input, by all means, add to it.

[Anastacy]

And "every dungeon must be run with a tank and healer and 3 dps" isn't also restrictive? Both designs have to operate under a set of assumptions. I'd prefer the one that makes no assumptions on the form of the group and is flexible enough to enable that.

I never claimed that the Holy Trinity wasn’t restrictive. But when the goal is to remove restriction, and you wind up making it even more restrictive with so-called “intelligent design”...just lel.

[Ethas]

Thanks but no. Korean f2p MMOs exist here for you and you can easily go play them rather than bring these ideas to WoW.