Anti High End Mentality

[Garymorilix]

It would be comically easy. Gear your mage for frost damage and spec fire. Gear your paladin for damage and try to heal. Just equip no hit gear and your damage will be terrible.

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You wildly underestimate how big the differences in classic are. This is not “one raid tier” difference. This is “gear you can get in your 40s is sometimes competitive or better than tier 2 gear” and “some class sets are so poorly optimized that you are better off wearing dungeon gear”.

That's because the game is different in its core.

One raid tier difference is pretty fuckin huge in a version of the game where everything is optimized and classes actually need to press more than 1 button for their rotation.
Especially since you can get as good gear as the one-tier-older raid from world quests.

Classic has no actual thought in it when it comes to design. The developers were new to the MMO genre and made totally random items, most of them so absolutely unusable it makes you think who even had the idea to make them.
In an environment like that it's not easy to find items that are simply better due to their attributes, because there might not even be a choice at all.

Modern WoW has a dozen of dps trinkets each tier. When all those are worse at the highest level of play than one from the previous tier it's a much bigger deal.

[Jastall]

Sure, that happens too, but if you think the atmospheres are comparable you aren't dealing with reality.

A cursory look at Classic logs show that those who do well don't really pug, mostly because it is not needed. They don't look for randos to carry just because, not when the raids are a joke difficulty wise. Does it happen? Sure. It is a visible tendency? Not really.

I dunno where these ideas that there's no trend of elitism in Classic or that people min-max friggin Normal come from, but I'm not sure you're one to say others aren't dealing with reality if you claim them.

[Laughingjack]

My argument is that ilvl is a poor gauge in vanilla. It is not used. It’s not a normal practice. You insisted on arguing with me, interspersed with weird declarations of your level of intelligence.

I've not talked about my own intelligence. I simply pointing out the utter absurdity of your examples and your lack of any understanding of the subject your trying to present.

[kamuimac]

Well then they need to adapt and take the five minutes necessary to research basic shit about their spec on easy to reach sites like IcyVeins; I have no problem helping out folks genuinely trying. I never rage at those types of people.


But I have such little tolerance for players who obviously don't give a shit, and those types are usually the loudest when crying about 'elitism.' Whenever these convos pop up its always the high-end players that are demonized instead of the leeches.


The actual elitists in this game don't hang out with common players, they're too busy being assholes to other high-end players. The players people are running into that are condescending are just bad players doing easy content for an ego boost.

people dont adapt. people leave games.

this happened in WoD - 5 mln left in 3 months - the same will happen in WoD 2.0

people will simply leave game.

i definetly do agree with your last statement though . real elite players are to busy chasing goals in game to care about little johny average getting his 1 TF item over whole expansion - especially that they will literaly never meet him

[Revamp Man]

I refuse to believe, that that is the only argument against high end play being bad for WoW. Their has to be be more, like even i could quickly come up with something.

I mean another argument could be that the high end does some thing so it’s a trickle down effect where Little Jimmy to fingers sees it happen and he believes that he needs to do it

[Niwes]

Instead of being so weirdly arrogant you could just not post anything. But anyway, go in any threat that talks about changes in SL. Be it AOE, Loot or class changes. In everyone of those there are people claiming what i said.

I did not attack anyone nor did i challenge someone. So your response was totally unwarranted. I just wanted to have an explanation or reasoning.

Sorry, there was no offense involved here. but still, i just can not see EVERYWHERE in every corner in every forum a anti high end mentality, you describe. it is just my point of view of the virtual/interwebz/mmo/whatever world. just because you have the feeling that everyone and their mothers talking/complaining about that stuff, doesnt make it automatically true or a fact.

as said, no offense here and no arrogance. i just do not find that there are that giant complains out there about that topic. yeah, here and there, as always. but way more ppl complain about classes, SL boring, BfA 2.0 etc. at least in my view of the world.

[Revamp Man]

I think part of the issue is their focus on e-sport type stuff with the MDI and catering to the top 1% who want to feel super challenged in what was/is a more laid back game. I personally despise the concept of M+ (mostly the timer though) because I feel Diablo 3 style "do the same thing but its a bit harder" isn't actual content and doesn't belong in the game. Mythic raiding literally burned me out of playing for 2 years in Warlords (and I was in a tryhard tryhard guild, so that may have contributed) because again, doing the same raid on three difficulties but oh this one has some extra shit isn't actual content and just makes it so everything else is considered worthless/invalid/only for bads.

So multiple difficulties in and of themselves foster an elitist mentality because A) Only the highest difficulty means anything, everything else doesn't matter and B) Due to A anyone who can do the highest part feels entitled and superior to everybody else. And then you have encounter design which has gotten just so crazy over the top in retail that it's like every boss needs to have a dozen things going on at once or people will bitch how it's "easy".

Classic, for all the flaws it's shown Vanilla to have, has IMHO proven that this crap isn't needed. MC and BWL and now ZG are pretty easy, all things considered, but they don't feel like obnoxious chores like raiding has in retail for years, and they're still enjoyable to do even without a dozen mechanics every boss fight and four difficulties.

Why were you running all 4 difficulties??

And what boss has a dozen mechanics that are super complex??

Also just as a side point ppl are still slaves to the meta in classic since ppl also try the “in vanilla/classic you can play whatever you want”

[NineSpine]

I've not talked about my own intelligence. I simply pointing out the utter absurdity of your examples and your lack of any understanding of the subject your trying to present.

You literally gave us an explanation of how your arguments are difficult to defeat because of how brilliant you are.

It’s like you are doing an impression of what dumb people think smart people sound like. Bertrand Russel didn’t get up and talk about how smart he was, because he didn’t have to.

At this point you have ceased responding to any of the points I have made and just descended into boring declarations of victory.

[PenguinChan]

God forbid players actually take any level of responsibility for their own shitty behavior.

I feel like pointing out people being dicks is a huge difference between that and arguing with them for the designs Blizzard have put into place. Happens way too often.

[Sorrior]

Did they ever? I have never set foot into a 5man after leveling before Mythic+. Was no reason to.

If you go back far enough this WAS for many endgame and fun..take wrath they added new dungeons with gear closer to raid quality and were a lot of fun for many.

Also making it so hard to get a new even semi decent weapon really sucks..I mean assuming you don’t run m+, pvp or raid outside lfr there are very few ways to get a weapon bar extreme luck(and having better weapons is still good for say nightmares and soloing old raids)

[SirBeef]

You weren't required to do that with LFR even when it was beneficial, either. It really mattered only to the try-hard guilds and actually skilled top end raiders / M+ runners.

But anyways, it's Blizzard's designs that fuel these kind of debates way more than anything else. Criticize the game designers, not the players in the (majority) of cases.

Meh, I criticize the players almost 100% of the time since it is their doing that cause most of the problems. Do people remember all the bitching about finding groups prior to LFD? And since all the bitching about how people act becasue they can leave after a boss or not communicate? As if that shit never happened before. Raiders were never required to run LFR, M+, cap AP weekly, get their legendaries, or any of that stuff by Blizzard. It was all player driven. Toxicity? All the players.

It doesn't matter that Blizzard gave player LFD to help with waiting and spamming for ever, it's the players that act like DBs. It's not Blizzards fault that your guild leader is a shitty guy requiring you to run LFR to hopefully get your tier bonuses faster, or M+ to get a better BiS trinket, that is all on them and you. Blizzard never forced anyone to cap AP weekly in Legion, I rarely did, yet still cleared mythic raids.

[VinceVega]

If you go back far enough this WAS for many endgame and fun..take wrath they added new dungeons with gear closer to raid quality and were a lot of fun for many.

Also making it so hard to get a new even semi decent weapon really sucks..I mean assuming you don’t run m+, pvp or raid outside lfr there are very few ways to get a weapon bar extreme luck(and having better weapons is still good for say nightmares and soloing old raids)

Others already told me about stuff i forgot like valor points etc.

But i think it has never been easier to get a weapon. You have Normal and heroic like always. No changes there. On top of it you have WQ witch scale with you. So even if your weapon is still 350 but the rest of your gear is at 420 the WQ will give you something you need. And emissary.

Equipping your char has never been easier. Which is a whole problem in itself. Thankfully they address that in SL.

[Sorrior]

What they need to do is actually have a progressive boss system. So like in your first raid tier of an expac the first 2-3 bosses should be barely above heroic dungeon bosses, basically heroic dungeon bosses with more health and a handful of mechanics (your typical "raid awareness" type of mechanics) with say the 3rd boss being the gear check/Patchwerk type boss (the "Are you ready to continue?" boss). the middle bosses should be more challenging and the last two bosses should be more challenging still. The idea would be that even your casual guilds could likely go and kill the first two bosses, giving them something to work for (if you make the first boss too hard, you'll just make people give up as it feels like they're making no progress), and slowly progress. your better guilds will be able to get through it faster and your high end guilds will still maybe clear it within a day but they are so far above the curve they shouldn't factor in.

Then your next tier, the early bosses are about the same as the middle bosses in the previous tier, the middle bosses are around the difficulty of the end bosses, and the end bosses of that tier are harder still. So again the idea is a guild that's in the middle of the first tier can maybe still go to the second tier and kill a boss, two at best, and whet their appetite for the raid as they are progressing through the one they are (and get a bit of slightly better gear to help), and so on. Third tier follows the same formula (and at this point maybe there are nerfs to some bosses, although I dislike the idea of totally being able to skip that first tier. make it easier sure but don't invalidate it).

Isn’t this how they used to do it as well?

[Osmeric]

Isn’t this how they used to do it as well?

Yes, and it drives players away.

[wraysbury]

When it comes to PvE, there is no negative interaction between players. By which I mean, if other people have better gear than you, it doesn't diminishes your experience. They're either running separate instances and you don't see them, or they happen to be PvEing along with you in a manner or another and them doing more damage than you doesn't diminishes your experience. The casual PvE experience is never diminished by the existence of much better geared players.

When it comes to PvP, and more specifically world pvp and random battlegrounds, the existence of large gearing disparities can fuck your experience, because there is an adversarial interaction between players (which is the whole point). If the people on the enemy team grossly overgear you, the BG becomes an useless exercise whose outcome was predetermined in advance by gear.

Or if say, you only have one healer and he has less than 200k HP. You're screwed.

Casual pvp doesn't work when there's too much gear disparity. And since it is no longer possible to quickly gear up from PvP alone (with all the time gating and RNG that have been thrown in), it means if you start a character today and want to do only pvp, the game is basically unplayable.

Admittedly it's not so much an argument against "high-end" gameplay than it is an argument for bringing back pvp gear and a quick progression path for pvp gear separate from pve progression.

[Laughingjack]

Meh, I criticize the players almost 100% of the time since it is their doing that cause most of the problems. Do people remember all the bitching about finding groups prior to LFD? And since all the bitching about how people act becasue they can leave after a boss or not communicate? As if that shit never happened before. Raiders were never required to run LFR, M+, cap AP weekly, get their legendaries, or any of that stuff by Blizzard. It was all player driven. Toxicity? All the players.

It doesn't matter that Blizzard gave player LFD to help with waiting and spamming for ever, it's the players that act like DBs. It's not Blizzards fault that your guild leader is a shitty guy requiring you to run LFR to hopefully get your tier bonuses faster, or M+ to get a better BiS trinket, that is all on them and you. Blizzard never forced anyone to cap AP weekly in Legion, I rarely did, yet still cleared mythic raids.

I mean a lot of mythic was mathematically impossible without doing a few of those things... but sure champ you do you!

Everyone wants to take three months to simply clear mythic im sure,

[Nobleshield]

Yes, and it drives players away.

It's not "quite" how they did things, bosses didn't scale the way I feel they should have (a couple of raids had pretty tough early bosses) but TBC may have been that way but attunements are what caused a lot of the guild poaching and such.

But explain to me how it drives people away to have things to work for? If you're on the first tier and the second or even third tier is out, you're still doing what should be enjoyable content for you and your guild. It's the "keeping up with the Joneses" mindset which is part of the issue, that everyone feels they are inferior if they aren't all doing the same thing. Instead of that you should be focusing on what you're doing with your guild, and look at the future. So what if you're on the second to last boss of the first tier and the second tier is out? You would still have progression to look forward to, as well as being able to get some progress in on the second tier (following the idea that if you were almost finished of the first, you could get a few bosses into the second).

Why does everyone have to be on the same level? Why can't people look at their own progress individually rather than have a dick measuring contest with everybody else? That seems to be the main issue: Everyone is too focused about how they compare, rather than enjoying what they're doing. The way it should work is you care about your own guild's progress, and not care that there's 6 other guilds who are ahead of you. What they're doing shouldn't matter to you. The seasonal approach where every tier invalidates the one before it is just as bad, if not worse than the reverse. So instead of a few people seeing one raid, few people see several raids because you can skip them at a certain point. Nerfing them after a while to make it easier to progress through would be preferable to outright being able to ignore them.

[Laughingjack]

It's not "quite" how they did things, bosses didn't scale the way I feel they should have (a couple of raids had pretty tough early bosses) but TBC may have been that way but attunements are what caused a lot of the guild poaching and such.

But explain to me how it drives people away to have things to work for? If you're on the first tier and the second or even third tier is out, you're still doing what should be enjoyable content for you and your guild. It's the "keeping up with the Joneses" mindset which is part of the issue, that everyone feels they are inferior if they aren't all doing the same thing. Instead of that you should be focusing on what you're doing with your guild, and look at the future. So what if you're on the second to last boss of the first tier and the second tier is out? You would still have progression to look forward to, as well as being able to get some progress in on the second tier (following the idea that if you were almost finished of the first, you could get a few bosses into the second).

Why does everyone have to be on the same level? Why can't people look at their own progress individually rather than have a dick measuring contest with everybody else? That seems to be the main issue: Everyone is too focused about how they compare, rather than enjoying what they're doing. The way it should work is you care about your own guild's progress, and not care that there's 6 other guilds who are ahead of you. What they're doing shouldn't matter to you.

Most people operate in life under this mentality and they bring it into games...

[NineSpine]

I mean a lot of mythic was mathematically impossible without doing a few of those things... but sure champ you do you!

Everyone wants to take three months to simply clear mythic im sure,

And that's why the mechanical difficulty of the content is the reason for the toxicity.

[Laughingjack]

And that's why the mechanical difficulty of the content is the reason for the toxicity.

In a sense your right. The fact that there is something to reach for out of the grasp of most is a reason for why toxic behavior occurs. I don't really think that is reason enough for that aspect to change.