Why cant nightborne be druids again?

[Aresk]

Gilneans, who become worgen because of a course, they aren't naturally worgen at this point.

They are basically a group that had nothing to do with druidism, and were given it to make worgen palyable. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing out that they had nothing to do with it before that event. Prior to cataclysm, Worgen was still pretty much a story we were following a night elf priestess from Ashenvale forest to investigate what shenanigans were happening and retrieve a dangerous artefact. The worgen we followed were not shapeshifters either. They had nothing to do with Gilneas.

The full explanation of Gilnean druids is given here:

What is the lore behind Gilnean druidism and the existence of "harvest-witches"? Is it a native practice, developed by the humans? Did they somehow pick it up from the night elves, even before the Eastern Kingdoms' discovery of Kalimdor?
In the early days of humanity and its civilization, many tribes of humans had primitive belief systems that incorporated simple nature magic. However, the rise of organized religion such as the Holy Light and the potent arcane magics introduced by the high elves quickly supplanted such traditions. Gilneas, due to its relative isolation, has retained a degree of their ancient culture in the contemporary era. The religious leaders of what was in Gilneas referred to as the "old ways" eventually became "harvest-witches"; those who used their nature powers to augment Gilneas' agricultural output during and following its period of industrialization. Due to the presence of harvest-witches in their culture, when Gilneans learned about night elf druids (albeit through second, third and even fourth-hand sources) they became fascinated by them and their exotic connotations, to the point where many started referring to harvest witches as "druids", though this was quite far from the truth, as few Gilneans had any idea what a druid actually was! Harvest-witches have a limited control over nature, especially plant life, and the powers of harvest witches bear a coincidental resemblance to the low-level abilities of actual druids. Harvest witches who contracted the worgen curse (which was druidic in origin) found that their powers were somewhat amplified, and after making first contact with the night elves cursed harvest witches were offered induction into the Cenarion Circle for both study and training.

Incidentally, there are no "natural" worgen.

Can worgen reproduce naturally or only through a bite or blood? Would their child be a worgen or normal?
The worgen curse is exactly that: a curse. Its origins are rooted in the druidic "pack form" that was later altered by the Scythe of Elune. The end result is the worgen we see today, beings that can transmit their affliction to others via a single bite.
In theory, if two worgen were to mate and produce an offspring, that offspring would not be a worgen. The child would merely possess the genetic material of his or her parents, like any other child sans the curse.

[Beloren]

Because 1. thematic dissonance. Nightborne are all about the arcane, specifically rejecting nature and 2. druids require more work to implement than most other classes.

It's the models, conflicts and dissonance happen for so many things, this one you can swallow compared to others. If I were to wager, i'd say the models

[ravenmoon]

Because 1. thematic dissonance. Nightborne are all about the arcane, specifically rejecting nature and 2. druids require more work to implement than most other classes.

Actually that is the theme of the night elves. Although it's not a dissonance, it's juxtaposition of contrasting ends. Arcane and nature, high civilizaton and low, tranquility and storm, civilised and savage. Serene yet tempestuous. Stagnant then progressive.
It's been the hallmark of the race and what drew me to them in teh first place.

Saying that, Nightborne never rejecetd nature, nor did blood elves. Turned away from their racial reverence of the wilds, yes, that they did, as most Night elves towards the end of the pre-sundering era, notiec how Farondis' Highborne were different in that regard, there is reverence for the druid as well as the priest amongst them. I like to think of them as what the Highbonre all around and Azshara to an even greater extent were like before addiction and hubris took over and spread like a cnacer. With few like Farondis, upholding the original nobility they had.
Still, their is no rejection of nature, elves love nature, it's in everyone of them, moreso the Nightborne because of their kaldorei roots, Blizzard definitely shows, but we see in the High elves too, . They were angry with the Darnassians for the exile, but they certainly didn't hate nature, they chose Quelt'halas to settle because it reminded them of home. [you can imagine: lots of Forest and huge moon in the Night sky, even though they had turned to day walkers.] they then proceed to bathe the entire land in eternal spring, amazing.
Elves love magic and nature. The Night elf typifies this core elven characteristic, which is why they do arcane and nature to such extremes, whereas the blood elves have it a bit more toned down and not so far into it, closer to the humans (ofc time and opportunity , as well as genetic ability contribute to this) - at lest this is what I deduce.
However Quel'dorei disliking the choices of the Long vigil kaldorei is no hating nature, nor are the shal'dorei shown to reject it. .
Now like the long vigil group, who were forced to look at nature because the Well was gone, and using the new one was believed to have drawn the hlegion, so to are the Nightborne forced to look at nature with the Arcan'dor provdiing the very balance that they need to avoid the fate of the Nightwell and be healed of it's changes. they now are introduced to nature kaldorei wielders far more powerful than the ones in ancient aklimdor, with achievemnets that surpass that of the Nightborne (like defeating a burning legion invasion, a world tree, guiding the evolution of the world in the Emerald dream and all that power, cloaking an entire continent in mist and also suppressing magical detection. These are extrodinary feats on a scale they'd never have imagined nature wielders could do.
It's bound to attract more Nightborne than the botanists we see. Besides, picking up the monk? is surely less likely.
2. I agree with your assessment on more model work, but also, my brother and I were discussing it, and we drew the conclusion it's because Highmountain got it, this is why Nightborne didn't, and this is likely because of two possible reasons. The decision to go horde came late, which meant that work on highmountain who were going horde had already started and they'db een given druids. 2. Nightborne were initially going alliance, if they had they'd have been druids.

[Thelxi]

Nightborne druid would solve all my problems and cure my acne.

[ravenmoon]

Do we have proof of that?

Yes and no. In the pre-sundering era Night elves over time slowly drifted away from their care and revere of the wilds and nature, they loved. As their mastery of the arcane grew, they could do the impossible at their fingertips. with a Queen pushing the arcane too, nature pursuits would have felt inadequate as far as serious magical knowledge, and no Malfurion to champion or prove its worth, and an Azshara to do so for the arcane.

You can imagine that where they would often visit paying homage to the forest spirits, caring for the wilds they deeply love at first. But as great advances and strides are made in the arcane, also loved, vision of the wonders of existence would grow too, shifting from immediate surroundings to a global birdseye view then look to the stars beyond they are fascinated with and have means now to examine a lot more. There knowledge of creation, existence, goes well beyond their natural surroundings, with population increase, developments in urban centres the Queen is very much keen on.

I don't feel the love of nature ever goes away, it's part and parcel with that of the arcane in this duality race, But through the history you can see how one aspect came to greatly dominate, and how the reverse happens after the sundering when the practice of arcane has to be banned to prevent the Legion's return. Their true sweet spot is a balance between the two, and they haven't had that since earlier days of the pre-sundering era.

It's not that you don't love forest, you do, your arcane love also there, his yielding more dividends, and nature isn't quite, you spend more time pursuing it, and you also love it too. They are not mutually exclusive, but the. . No champion of nature pushing its frontiers like the arcane, but the Kaldorei are much closer to it now for the first time since that period so long ago.

So imagine a being like Cenarius wouldn't' quite understand, what is so engaging about luxury and the urban lifestyle. Being a great lover of the forest, and some night elves like Malfurion would have shared the same sentiment (notice not every night elf fits the trend -let's not generalise afterall. But most would have. Cenarius would have wondered what happened to this race that showed so much care for the wilds, a people he had found that could actually develop into the stewards and protector of nature amongst the races. I think even he understanding them would not have expected ALL night elves to be nature devoted, but he would have at least expected the love of the wilds to have continued in more of them. Malfurion in WotA feels that this drift is a bit too extreme to be natural, and feels hubris, excessive indulgence (i.e. addiction) have robbed the people of their sense and something vital and beautiful. He wasn't wrong, and whiles again, it's not the arcane in and off itself that is bad. It's neither bad nor good, they've gotten very much carried away by its wonders and pour more and more of themselves into until they get addicted. his attempts to wake them up forcing him to be pariah in his own city Suramar - a bit like today, when people won't listen until a great disaster happens...

Slowly, the visitors to the forest, and roamers would dwindle, where once many night elves would spend years out there or often commute from cities and towns. Now barely going, the cities full of lush gardens miniature replicas of the splendour outdoors (see Zin'Azsahri in warbringers), now become the substitutes where they once reminders that bring a bit of the out door beauty close.

A bit sensationalised I know, but you get the jist. how many times have you loved two things greatly, but circumstances have pushed one to the forefront over the others. you don't stop loving the toehrs, but you greatly develop in the one, and if circumstances force you stop the one, you will focus on the toher if you can. Sot it is with the Night elves, until the modern ear whre both can develop side by side, with one group, bringing all the knowledge and expertise of the civilization era, and the other maintaining all the knowledge and expertise of the nature era.

The Nightborne would not be considered changed from this blueprint either. Like all allied races, they are reflections of the core race with a unique story. Now while they can change, I think it is more reasonable to expect that the Nightborne would develop their nature and Elune love once more.

I know this is not what some people want, but I'd see no issue with it. I even applaud it, because it is the identity of the group, their purpose isn't to be full fledge new race, like the Kaldorei we meet in WC3 have the nature side dominant in our first meeting, the Shal'dorei have the arcane side of the night elves dominant, cos it's the night elf civilization we see. In time, now out of isolation and that extreme which was very unhealthy, they will balance out and find other pursuits. They would be drawn to nature, and some would pursue that, just as some would not leave the arcane. Remember not all Nightborne are mages or arcane wielders, many did other things.

now we see wildswalker Nightborne NPCs , a pre-curor to druids perhaps?


The only thing bad in the pre-sundering era, was the night elves getting arrogant and carried away by their genius and mastery of the power of the arcane . This is what led to addiction. The cities weren't bad, nor was the arcane force itself either. This is why Night elves don't hate cities or the arcane, but they loather their former attitudes, and the Highborne who at the front of it, let the legion into their world that destroyed the civilization and world they loved so much.

Nightborne will follow the core blue print of the Night elves, just like Void elves would Blood elves Highmountain would tauren etc, don't let the contrasting theme of advanced arcane and advanced nature blind you to this. They can ofc have different paths, like we see the Nightborne developing chronomancy magic, warpcasting and things like that, we also see a bond with the blood elves, that's all new compared to their Kaldorei origin and live in the bubble, where the only other thing that was different from the earlier days was the slow physical appearance shift to what we see. This is acceptable, but they will be developed with the night elf core. Which sadly most people do not understand is not a nature only core, but a dual nature and arcane core. The Nightborne would be effectively the story of the Night elves if they had bubbled up in shield and o'd'ed on powerful magic juice to the extent their bodies changed, then got saved by their kin, and decide to join the blood elves. you see night elves on the horde essentially.

Through them all the Kaldorei stories of the Forest, the Emerald dream, the Night world, the civilization of the kaldorei, the Highborne, the Druids, the Moon priests, Naga, the Satyr can all be shared by the horde fans. When you look at it that way, it may have been a shrewd move, because the Night elves are a huge race, on par with Humans and orcs for the scope of their lore and make up. It was a bit lopsided to be only on the alliance, and is probably why they were greatly diminished in effectiveness and appearance/roles, because they drew people to the alliance they were on. This is much better from that point of view, and both factions can enjoy being connected to their story now.

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Nightborne druid would solve all my problems and cure my acne.

But would it get me a girlfriend?

[Piamonte]

jezz all this lore overlords who says they cant be druids because arcane elune bla bla yeah come on there is no logic behind that we have kultiran druids we have zandalar druids makes no sense that they are some but here we are .....
i think nightborne and bloodelves should be druids they have druidism in a diffrent form and shape like trolls and kultirans

also like ravemoon mentioned the roots are there tbh just read what he wrote

Is not because elune or the arcane, is because of the emerald dream, the loas and the lack of a teacher. That said, kul tiran seems to be a new type of druid because they probably get their magic from Ardenwald.

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Actually, their situation is different from the other races, because the society is not unfamiliar with druidism or CEnarius, and by the time the Nightborne are done, it is well established that there has been the Cenarius connection in their past (his home is literally the forest next door). Whiles they ahve gone a long long time without this, it is already in the Night elf lore they are tied to, and thus there. Furthermore, they get introduced with interactions and help from druids, and we see thy developed some expertise in nature magic wielding which is likely from the vein of pre-druidsm before Malfurion took the art to the heights it reached.

I would suspect the earlier versions of druidism, while useful didn't have much use to the advancing civilization and paled in comparsion to what the arcane could do, which is why most night elves gravitated towards the arcane, and only take alook into druidism again when they are forced to by the events of the aftermath of the Sundering.

Fortuntaely for them, they did, cos it proved quite essential and also the solutionto curing addiction. The Nightborne while not having the druid class, seem to have a lot of presnece of it in their story, their history and they're shown to be wielding nature magics - that's a lot for a race that can't even be druids.. yet.

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Gilneans, who become worgen because of a course, they aren't naturally worgen at this point.

They are basically a group that had nothing to do with druidism, and were given it to make worgen palyable. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing out that they had nothing to do with it before that event. Prior to cataclysm, Worgen was still pretty much a story we were following a night elf priestess from Ashenvale forest to investigate what shenanigans were happening and retrieve a dangerous artefact. The worgen we followed were not shapeshifters either. They had nothing to do with Gilneas.


I know, that's why I specifically mentioned the worgen playable class, which is what we are talking about. The original worgen, which is not playable, has a history connected with the Night elves because they're night elves we find out much later.

you are twisting facts to the point of being ridiculous to make the case for nightborne druids.

[ravenmoon]

you are twisting facts to the point of being ridiculous to make the case for nightborne druids.

Amusing. You're funny. What makes you say that anyway?

Are you sure you're not confusing my style of conveying information with what I am actually saying, in context to who I am replying? It may seem that way if you only read snippets of what I write instead of the whole thing, and you do so without the context of the previous conversation the response is a continuation of.

[Piamonte]

Amusing. You're funny. What makes you say that anyway?

Are you sure you're not confusing my style of conveying information with what I am actually saying, in context to who I am replying? It may seem that way if you only read snippets of what I write instead of the whole thing, and you do so without the context of the previous conversation the response is a continuation of.

no one is going to read your walls of text, this is a forum not a place for you to write essays about your weird elf fetish

[Beloren]

no one is going to read your walls of text, this is a forum not a place for you to write essays about your weird elf fetish

Dude, if you're not going to read the man's stuff, then you have no business commenting - srsly, it's stupid to make a statement about someone's message if you haven't read it. You end up looking like a fool. I think also that qualifies as trolling, and you might trigger Ravenmoon into double sided , no triple sided wall of text overload Arrrgghhhhh... /runs away in fear. - a fate worse than any infraction for trolling.

[ravenmoon]

no one is going to read your walls of text, this is a forum not a place for you to write essays about your weird elf fetish

/raise eyebrow

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Dude, if you're not going to read the man's stuff, then you have no business commenting - srsly, it's stupid to make a statement about someone's message if you haven't read it. You end up looking like a fool. I think also that qualifies as trolling, and you might trigger Ravenmoon into double sided , no triple sided wall of text overload Arrrgghhhhh... /runs away in fear. - a fate worse than any infraction for trolling.

You need not fear, I'm done with that, I reserve walls of text for only those who would read them. If he doesn't agree but refuses to actually read the points. his loss.

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But - Again - What is 'killing the lore'?
You're claiming the 'thing that killed the lore' is that there's a race that's recovering from addiction.
You ignored the literal demon space army.
You ignored the Naaru and Old gods being literal manifestations of good and evil.
You ignored that, yes, the playable races have communities which wouldn't accept certain things, hence the class/race restrictions. (Which, yes, some don't make a whole lot of sense - But Tauren Warlocks? Really? You can't see why Baine's Tauren wouldn't like Warlocks being around? The 'Fel Tauren' you refer to LEFT Highmountain, they joined the Legion, they weren't on our side.)
But apparently people recovering from addiction is "lore breaking" because... reasons.
Maybe it's just because people have different ideas of what's important. Whether a couple people play Tauren Warlocks is obviously not as important as the large majority of people who play Elves having what they want.
It's almost like they have to balance what the playerbase wants against what is feasible to do... Like they're making a game instead of a fully functional universe or something. :thinking:

I love how people come on line and tell blizzard how wrong the very lore they have written is - like it isn't theirs to dictate, meanwhile ignoring half the things they do say Just because they don't like a point, and most of this, because they can't be bothered to read. Anything more than 1 line is a wall of text. yet they'll feel qualified to inform of us on what's what.

[Piamonte]

Dude, if you're not going to read the man's stuff, then you have no business commenting - srsly, it's stupid to make a statement about someone's message if you haven't read it. You end up looking like a fool. I think also that qualifies as trolling, and you might trigger Ravenmoon into double sided , no triple sided wall of text overload Arrrgghhhhh... /runs away in fear. - a fate worse than any infraction for trolling.

one guy with a weird elf fetish defending another guy with a weird elf fetish, wow.

[Quaade]

sounds like void dwelling blood elves hmmm

The Void dwelling Blood Elves was society that intentionally thought it out. Within the greater BE society, they were the exception rather than the norm. However, they created a society in which they were the norm rather than the exception. The Nightborne never made such a society so the Nightborne that sought a close connection to nature was the exception rather than the norm within their society and they never made a society within the society where they were the norm rather than the exception.

Do some narrative interpretation instead of this lazy "checkmate X" mentality.

[owbu]

The guys who locked themselves up in a city for a couple milenia (before druids really existed) are probably the least druidic people other than goblins and gnomes.

[ravenmoon]

The full explanation of Gilnean druids is given here:

Thank you for bringing up the quote. It confirms what I've been saying.


Before the druid class was introduced with the race, there was no trace of druidism. What this means, is that they generated lore to explain druids on decidindg ot give those races druids. Gilneans, Trolls (both kinds), Tauren (both Kinds), Kul'tirans - before having druids, have no trace of druidism in any of the material about their nations and races ever mentioned. [note I don't have a problem with this, I'm just stating it to show that they had to create lore to give them druids cos they have no record of it prior to that class being introduced.

The Nightborne do from 3 vantages
1. Historically, going to the time before the Empire dominated the world, when Cenarius taught them.
2. A less accomplished form of it is practised actively by the botanists and their leader in Suramar.
3. They are introduced and work with Valewalker Farodin a night elf druid Valewalker and a number of other druids like Nighteyes and some Val'Sharah refugees who end up helping the Nightfallen resistance save the Night elves' ancient city of Suramar now under siege by the Legion.

And this is before even the class is made available.


As all can now see, the Harvest witches aren't druids, though they mis-named themselves as druids, but the article clarifies the situation. They don't even come close. And harvest witches have no mention prior to Gileneans becoming worgen and druids in 4.0, there is no trace of them in the lore.

Btw that is what I meant, I didn't mean they have no history of it. THLore was later added when they wanted to give these races druids, and they created some back history in a few of them, to explain it.

Incidentally, there are no "natural" worgen.

Yes, I've read that piece. It is werewolves in wow. Reminds me of the TV show Bitten, which I have a sudden urge to finish.

[Aresk]

Thank you for bringing up the quote. It confirms what I've been saying.

Before the druid class was introduced with the race, there was no trace of druidism. What this means, is that they generated lore to explain druids on decidindg ot give those races druids. Gilneans, Trolls (both kinds), Tauren (both Kinds), Kul'tirans - before having druids, have no trace of druidism in any of the material about their nations and races ever mentioned. [note I don't have a problem with this, I'm just stating it to show that they had to create lore to give them druids cos they have no record of it prior to that class being introduced.

The Nightborne do from 3 vantages
1. Historically, going to the time before the Empire dominated the world, when Cenarius taught them.
2. A less accomplished form of it is practised actively by the botanists and their leader in Suramar.
3. They are introduced and work with Valewalker Farodin a night elf druid Valewalker and a number of other druids like Nighteyes and some Val'Sharah refugees who end up helping the Nightfallen resistance save the Night elves' ancient city of Suramar now under siege by the Legion.

And this is before even the class is made available.

The big difference between Gilneas and Suramar in terms of writing the class in is that we've gotten a very in-depth look at Suramar society. We didn't really know much about Gilnean society before Cataclysm other than they didn't like orcs, didn't really want to participate in the Alliance, were isolationist, and did a bit of research on the fringe of their country regarding worgen. While we have botanists and menagerie keepers in Suramar, it seemed more hunter-ish than druidic to me. Without adding that additional push for druids, I don't think it makes as much lore sense to add druid to nightborne upon their introduction as an allied race.

But they've had ties to the arcan'dor. They've worked with druids. I think the lore is sufficiently positioned to push them into druids in 10.0, similar to how tauren gained paladins in 4.0 (with quests previewing this in WotLK). They could do something with the night fae in Shadowlands.

Honestly, I really like druids and would love to see more races with the class. Void elf druids with crazy tentacly druid forms could be cool, and the mechano-druids of the mechagnomes would be fun. Sadly, I think the increased art assets make it a more expensive class to add than others.

Yes, I've read that piece. It is werewolves in wow. Reminds me of the TV show Bitten, which I have a sudden urge to finish.

Bitten was pretty good as far as werewolf series go. I recommend finishing it!

[ravenmoon]

The big difference between Gilneas and Suramar in terms of writing the class in is that we've gotten a very in-depth look at Suramar society. We didn't really know much about Gilnean society before Cataclysm other than they didn't like orcs, didn't really want to participate in the Alliance, were isolationist, and did a bit of research on the fringe of their country regarding worgen. While we have botanists and menagerie keepers in Suramar, it seemed more hunter-ish than druidic to me. Without adding that additional push for druids, I don't think it makes as much lore sense to add druid to nightborne upon their introduction as an allied race.

However, let me comment that it seemed both to me. The botanists and parks felt very druidic, (not huntery), whereas the Menagerie felt like a typical city version given their unique circumstances, the fact that they kept these going for 10k years, as in indication of some love, though not as deep as it was original, and which like a lot of what we see in Suramar is a twisted version of the full thing shown in the Darnassians (exactly like the kaldorei society it is showing was in the invasion period of the pre-sundering era).

Suramar society we see in game isn't new. It's an expanded version of what we have been given in the War of the Ancients trilogy. it's very new to a lot people because they don't know Night elf lore, nor have they read the novels, which hold more information about night elves than in game - while blizzard neglected Night elves in game, they instead wrote lots of books on them. Legion was their first expansion to focus on their history and culture. Note that Suramar and all the Night eleven portions of the Broken Isles are the history of the Darnassians brought to life. Suramar itself, the Moonguard, Ravencrest and Black Rook hold, Val'sharah birthplace of druidism, and the Cathedral of Eternal Night, ancient Headquarters of the Order of Elune. The Nightborne going horde shouldn't confuse people, it's exactly like the void elves going alliance - (i.e. a very specific blood elf group etc).

This is why there is more preset there. The fact that you have botanists and menagerie keepers, then actual hunters, as well as kaldorei society and kaldorei city, with moon and star love, symbols, night saber cats etc, all speaks to this group having all the elements of its core race. albeit to varying degrees (like more of the arcane, less of druidism, no sign of the priesthood, but all the symbols, statues and shrines are there.)

My point was simply that it is indications and clear connections both past (kaldorei), present (Farodin, Nighteyes, Val'sharah refugees), future (Arcan'dor) - and they don't even have the class yet. Meanwhile the others had no trace till the class was introduced.
It's not really an important point, because it won't mean anything if they don't get druids, but if they do, no one can say blizzard pulled it out of the hat, or it breaks any lore, especially as I'm sure they'd introduce it with more lore, like they've done every druid class that's introduced in race.

We didn't really know much about Gilnean society before Cataclysm other than they didn't like orcs, didn't really want to participate in the Alliance, were isolationist, and did a bit of research on the fringe of their country regarding worgen

And you are right here. I wanted to highlight this, because we should all remember, that we are never shown the full picture of any race. Never, this is how blizzard can add things later into their history, as well as generate new stuff. Another example would be Nightborne priests, no indication of them in the Suramar starting line up quests, but despite the good look at Suramar, it's far from a complete look, because it is looking at a specific point in time. If we know our Suramar history, it is the HQ of the Order of Elune, Tyrande, a native to it, becomes an initiate in the sisterhood, eventually rising to High Priestess. The City is the ancient heart of the Order, and its chief temple is across the bridge. Who would argue with blizz if they later introduce priest lore and show most of Nightborne society in the commons area, still held on to belief in Elune, and were crying out to her when the demons started rounding up people and arcwine was rationed by Elisande. Only to have Tyrande and Liadrin - both priest-warrior women sweep in like an answer to prayer.

Not to mention the Priestess Val'sharah refugees in Shal'aran, who would have been ministering to the people and soothing them. Comfort and restoration coming from the Night elven druids like Farodin and priests... If this was the angle they went with, no one would think it lore breaking at all, and even if they said something that we felt was lore breaking, they can create lore in whatever direction they want. Fact checking is to make sure new lore and old lore don't contradict, when they do, they usually explain it in a way that makes sense, and if they really want something else, they retcon. They have the authority to do that in their product.

That was just an example btw, i'm not saying it is the case now, for people who don't read and think headcanon, it is simply to illustrate how they can open up and show more of group because the initial exposure never covers everything.
This is why we can easily believe everything about Tauren druidism, Kul'tiran druidism, Worgen becoming druids etc even though there was no trace of it before.

But they've had ties to the arcan'dor. They've worked with druids. I think the lore is sufficiently positioned to push them into druids in 10.0, similar to how tauren gained paladins in 4.0 (with quests previewing this in WotLK). They could do something with the night fae in Shadowlands.

Yes, indeed, it would set them up lightly. Btw, do note that I'm not really disagreeing with you. sometimes, people think so because I highlight portions of what they say and expand on it saying things that seem to be a contradiction to what they say. No, the above is not an argument, it's more a greater exposition. I am generally agreeing with you, just highlighting certain area for more info, or where I feel it could mean more or something else.

I do this because I like to discuss this topic. So please don't view this as me fighting you, like other people do. And honestly it's good that there are people who do things like this, for new people or less familiar people reading, they can get more information.
Because I love this topic, I actually think a lot about it, I don't merely like a robot, only accept the pure facts alone. But I use those facts to paint a picture of what it would actually be like, bringing it alive. This often confuses people, who are not use to that sort of characterisation or depth. Or thinking that far, or bringing it to life. I understand a little of the design process, and this is what pretty much happens when they design these races and groups, but you actually don't see a lot of the lore that is established in the board rooms, or read it out right. but it is used to create the artwork, bestiary, setting and mood you see, so a lot of information can be gleaned by the appearance, meanwhile a lot of the former lore is used as well in cases like Suramar to present the picture.

I follow dev interviews closely, and sometimes they talk about this, in the case of Suramar they wanted to show a Night elven pristine city from their civilisation. (which is why people who use to think nightborne and Suramar weren't Night elven was extremely disturbing, (disturbing not for me, but to see that people couldn't even understand what was right in front of them, and then when I would point it out, they just dug their heels in to their incorrect view - stubbornness? pride? - I noticed they don't read things more than a few lines on forums anymore. but I'm a 10 year poster, and when I kicked off, we wrote a lot on forums - 1 liners were for twitter or facebook - reddit hadn't become popular then)

The Nightborne are showing Kaldorei city and culture exactly like it was in many ways ( not all ways) amongst the arcane wielding night elves in the invasion period (which was most night elves btw), and they the nightborne were, to quote blizzard "showing what would have happened to Night elves who continued in that excessive use of magic, unlike the Darnassians who had to stop" - this is why they give them that appearance, and then the curse also - they weren't trying to make a 3rd elven group at all, they are just new type of Night elf just like the Highmountain are a new type of Tauren, or void elf a new type of blood elf. They do this all the time in expansions.

Honestly, I really like druids and would love to see more races with the class. Void elf druids with crazy tentacly druid forms could be cool, and the mechano-druids of the mechagnomes would be fun. Sadly, I think the increased art assets make it a more expensive class to add than others.

I agree. I really feel, the elven druidism should be a staple core for the elves. Mage, priest and Druid should be the caster staples on all elf races, while hunter/rogue the physical damage staples, and to a lesser extent warriors. Nature magic wielding makes sense, given all elves Kaldorei root, I can't fathom why only the arcane half of the Night elves would carry on prolifically in the other elven groups, but the nature magic wielding side not have any game representation, especially when the lore paints all elves as loving nature. Loving forests, it is as much a part of elves as the arcane magic, pointy long ears and aesthetic beauty.

There is also easy ways in lore to show the connection. High elf druids could be a thing, the ones mainly responsible for the eternal spring in Quel'thalas, nature magic continued, in the exiles, since most of the Highborne who picked up druidism stayed with the kaldorei, the nature love didn't die in the exiles, and they developed a semblance of it, The Botanists now having access to druidism via the alliance (if high/void elves) and via the Nightborne (if blood elves - t his option ofc means the Nightborne would have to have the class now). Void elves might need special lore, but they are scholars, so are druids - its the elven way. The Emerald dream has suffered too much from the Nightmare and void incursion, void elves interested in exploring how the void can be used to and harnessed to help nature, especially protect it, meet with Malfurion and other druids, and the exchange of knowledge and training occurs, this is how you get the first void elf druids. I could buy that.

High elf druids are botanists who now having worked with the Cenarion Expedition in Outland, use the re-connection with the night elves to further their study.

Blood elf druids happen, because, the Belves initially too proud to learn from the Tauren or Troll, aren't too proud to learn from the nightborne, who are very much interested in druidism seeing that it was vital in saving their people, , is the ultimate expression of their nature love and since the pre-sundering empire, has developed in a powerful way the post-sundering history reveals to them. [Remember to kaldorei around the invasion era, the arcane just seemed superior to everything, it did, the kaldorei would never have gone back to nature if they didn't have to stop using the arcane, doing so allowed druidism to catch up, as they bent their intellect and magical skills to nature, and developed working in tandem with dragons, doing things on a world scale, that eclipses that of what they achieved with the Well of Eternity.

The Nightborne nature lovers now know the history of what their kin outside the shield were doing, defeating the legion with nature in the 3rd war, World trees that boost nature globally, guiding the evolution of the world in the Emerald dream, and using the arcane waters of the Well of eternity to enhance nature, would be of great interest to any arcane loving elf (just as it was to the Night elves who after the sundering really only knew the arcane - and is why druidism from them has such a heavy arcane influence) - this is right up the Nightborne's street.

The problem many fans will have is that they won't understand any of what I have said. For starters they won't read all of it. They'll read a little, skim through, miss the context, won't put themselves in the shoes of what it would be like for a Nightborne or elf, would forget we are talking possibility not actual canon lore, and would assume that Nightborne , blood elves or void elves being druids somehow means their entire society becomes 100% druidic, (which is what they wrongly feel Kaldorei society is because they think kaldorei as wood elves, ignoring the lore and refusing to update it with information from written material or later games like cata and legion). They would ignore that it is quite feasible, that a number ranging from small to sizeable could enthusiastically pick up druidism, you know, because it is not unlikely that Elven love for nature, would want to develop its magical ability in some elves. That the botanists of Suramar are already an indication that this is the path for some Nightborne, and the Botanica blood elves, also indicate that you have some Blood elves already in that field - with a huge forest all the Thalassian's love being a massive indication that there is nature love. Not to mention the treant elementals they considered friends in the quest line, they felt really bad for having to kill to stop the spread of the dead scar.
But most of they will not consider this, because they actually are not interested in making things happen, only in indulging their own whims, and they off course will refuse to read what I've written, because it is long.. and they're not that interested. Now this isn't everyone, but it will be the naysayers. they won't be open, and they won't read, they will for all intents and purposes show themselves as fools for it. Very sad. I won't argue with them, I've already written the information. I am just anticipating their argument.

Bitten was pretty good as far as werewolf series go. I recommend finishing it!

Yeh, will try and finish it, I love that stuff, vampires/werewolves etc. - interesting that the Thalassian elves really have that vampire vibe, with the mana sucking in Blood elves, the blood sucking San'layn, and the vampiric leeching Void elves. Meanwhile worgen was tied to the night elves - I think it was co-incidental at first, worgen being a night elf thing made sense because it is sort of like a shapeshift, and druidism is largely based on the Night elf view in wow. [did you know that the Night elves also start the mage and demon hunter classes and in the lore are racially the most talented, accomplished and prolific in both these fields? - yet the mage class is based on the human version which is goes back to the Thalassian remodel of it, not the Night elf version (the Night elf version uses a lot of celestial (star/moon magic in it). Similiarly, the demon hunter is based entirely on the night elven version, so far no other version exists, although you could in some cases interpret the Demon hunter tradition as the Night elven version of Warlock fel users - with the calss emphasizing the melee side instead of the caster side, but Demon hunters are just as prolific spell casters. Meanwhile the priesthood, which the night elves also have an incredible example and tradition of, is based on the human version (also shared with the Thalassians), not the Night elf version.

In fact class wise, with the exception of the Druid, Demon hunters, Shaman, Hunter and possibly Warlock, all classes are based on the human version. [Shaman and Lock based on the Orc, Hunter based on the combination of orc, troll and Elf (both kinds]. However in the lore many races have their own version of these calsses

[Varodoc]

It'd be a cool concept for certain:

[Beloren]

It'd be a cool concept for certain:

Wow, they have all the models and customisation options already for the full druid look, , its already there, they but need to introduce the class, and just use these sets.

[mickybrighteyes]

The Nightborne do from 3 vantages
1. Historically, going to the time before the Empire dominated the world, when Cenarius taught them.

I feel you're taking liberties with lore here and that this isn't reflected in the story thus far. Cenarius taught Malfurion but Malfurion wasn't exactly teaching anyone (he's the canon teacher of the druids formally) till after the sundering. Thus the nightborne would have already been sealed off and not present to be taught.

2. A less accomplished form of it is practised actively by the botanists and their leader in Suramar.

I think this is mistaking game machanic school and graphic choice. Like confusing a "warlock" for a "mage" because of red fire spells.

3. They are introduced and work with Valewalker Farodin a night elf druid Valewalker and a number of other druids like Nighteyes and some Val'Sharah refugees who end up helping the Nightfallen resistance save the Night elves' ancient city of Suramar now under siege by the Legion.

Vale walker is canonically not a druid and neither are those from the vale walkers.

[ravenmoon]

I feel you're taking liberties with lore here and that this isn't reflected in the story thus far. Cenarius taught Malfurion but Malfurion wasn't exactly teaching anyone (he's the canon teacher of the druids formally) till after the sundering. Thus the nightborne would have already been sealed off and not present to be taught.

That's absolutely correct Mickybrighteyes, but I was only referring to the heritage they have genetically and historically. Even though most Night elves around the time of the invasion had pretty much abandoned pursuing the teachings of Cenarius in favour of the arcane, their first love, they still had a love for nature, and most (with the exception of the majority of the highborne) still had a reverence for the forests. By the invasion period, Cenarius was myth to most city folk, though it would not have been that long ago when the elves knew the Forest Lord.


We see the Kaldorei despite the long absence of nature magic, quickly able to pick it up and progress it in the group that had to ban arcane practise. It didnt' matter they had been arguably thousands of years out of practice, the love and the skill was still there.
The same is for the arcane, as we see former highborne return to join the Shen'dralar revitalised caste, and very talented new night elves scouted and quickly rising through ranks of sorcerors , already on the front line in numbers.


It's an illustration to show that this love is still there, as well as the talent, and we see an example of this in the High Botanist and his team, their nature magic is impressive, for ones that didn't have the guidance of Cenarius, but his twisted approach is reminiscent of the society in the height of arrogance and lacking the humility that is a very key part to the druid way of life.


I would assume, now humbled after the events of Legion, some Shal'dorei have learnt the last important lesson essential in every druid. Humility.

Basically, TLDR - it's even in their blood, their history shows it.

I think this is mistaking game machanic school and graphic choice. Like confusing a "warlock" for a "mage" because of red fire spells.

I didn't confuse them with druids, I did say "less accomplished version".. and the intent is deliberate by the developers to show nature is a part of this night elven group, but not in the same measure as it is with the Darnassians, in the form it was during the invasion period of the pre-sundering era, which Suramar and the Nightborne are a time capsule presentation of. They didn't have to use nature wielding Elves in Suramar, they didn't have to have that as an identifiable portion of the challenges in the nighthold, neither did they have to fill the city with gardens and vineyards. This is part of the race they are trying to show, Night elves who didn't stop using the arcane excessively, are still night elves, while arcane mastery is prolific , there is still nature love, because it is part of the race and one of their features. If it wasn't there, they won't show it, and would have picked something else.


It is deliberate because it's highlighting a part of them. However a lot of people are quick to overlook, not bothering with important details and what they might mean. Although Is uspect they are so fast and eager to associate them with the blood elves, they have literally imported blood elf everything to Nightborne. I have a field day and material for my essays. A typical example is how they tell you with confidence how the Nightborne hate the Night elves, and hate nature - and you can instantly tell they are thinking of blood elves, even though the latter assertion in blood elves is wrong.

Vale walker is canonically not a druid and neither are those from the vale walkers.

Valewalker is an order, not a class, Farodin is from the druidic part of the order. I've heard people say he is a Valewalker not a druid before and it's rubbish. ALways in the context of and effort to dis-prove or de-legtiimise Nightborne access to druidism, even though it's right infront of their eyes.

People just again don't read the quests, or just want to argue because they actually don't believe or I suspect, simply don't want that to be true, despite the evidence been there, I could write another essay on all the indications that point to this, but they won't read it. the Valewalkers are a faction made up of druids and mages, they are not a class of themselves. They are like the Dreamwardens, or the Unseen Path


Quote from Vale Walker Farodin.

Valewalker Farodin:
Thousands of years ago, as the Quel'dorei were just beginning to unravel the mysteries of the arcane, a small enclave of druids met with the first of the elven magi. In the pale moonlight, they formed an order that would seek to bring the arcane into balance - using nature itself as a vessel.

We know what half of the order he belongs to. The druid half. But I'm sure people will try to argue that he is not a druid, as they did with me in a previous ptopic not so long ago.