the only negative of SL and here is why

[MrLachyG]

Honestly, I would rather they just make Covenant abilities utility/flavor than making them changeable via CD. Just means you're wrong in certain content while waiting for the CD. I usually do M+ after Raids.

I love the idea of player agency, I've nominated at least one alt to each covenant based on transmog and aesthetics what align with those classes. For my alts, I could care less what the abilities are.

Honestly, it's the only way I can see this working.

I think in the end they will just make it that you can change whenever with no restriction. I would like to see the rep requirement of exalted (revered with alts) to be able to access the ability because that really does make sense despite all the moaning that a few people will do. getting to exalted before the first raid with all 4 covenants will be easy

[Tomana]

The problem is not even the min-maxing in itself.
The problem is that Blizzard will release covenants in one way, then nerf some of them to shit in the 9.1 patch because some of them happened to be overused, then attempt to correct the said shitness in 9.2, then double-back in 9.3, all while giving the middle finger to the players who chose it.
All because they're completely incapable of balancing a pen on their index finger, not to mention 4 covenant abilities.

[razorpax]

But you don't play this game in a vacuum, you play with other people. And the easier a switch is, the more will people expect you to do it constantly. "It takes 5 minutes, just do it"

If a switch is hard and lengthy, then only the absolute crazies will expect a certain choice.



If you simple call every "negative" that is brought up irrelevant, its easy to make that argument. But thats not how arguing works, you don't just get to entirely dismiss the opposition by hand-waving.

Their opinion and your opinion are equally valid, no matter if you agree with it or even understand it. If you dismiss it, you are not even trying to have a discussion, you are just trying to get people to agree with you.

ok so heres the negative
"being able to swap it constantly makes the choice meaningless"
well the argument to that is
1. it makes the choice less of a pain in the ass to the people who play for optimizing their characters


2. if you dont play for optimization then the choice is not that meaningful to you anyways right??
If little Timmy tells you "hey this is a +8 you need to swap to the necrolord ability" you can tell him "no i dont want to because this is a +8 and it is not needed"

you can say no to randoms

i now i dont play the game in a vacuum i play it with my guild who i can expect to also make the optimal choices because we like to clear content as quick as possible

im not really dismissing anything but when discussing something and wanting it to change and you have a group of people who understand the system and are effected by it talking with a group that is not effected by it then you have to take a certain stance where the opinion of those not effected by it have no weight

a person who doesnt play for optimization will not be effected in their play no matter if the change is made or not

Its like me saying pvp needs to remove 2v2 from everything even though i dont personally pvp

the change would be made and it would effect only the people who pvp and thus not myself

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I think in the end they will just make it that you can change whenever with no restriction. I would like to see the rep requirement of exalted (revered with alts) to be able to access the ability because that really does make sense despite all the moaning that a few people will do. getting to exalted before the first raid with all 4 covenants will be easy

i mean blizzard is going to end up removing the requirement but im not too sure that it needs to hae a rep requirement

like we get these abilities while leveling so why not just allow us to have access to all of them because we already used them

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The problem is not even the min-maxing in itself.
The problem is that Blizzard will release covenants in one way, then nerf some of them to shit in the 9.1 patch because some of them happened to be overused, then attempt to correct the said shitness in 9.2, then double-back in 9.3, all while giving the middle finger to the players who chose it.
All because they're completely incapable of balancing a pen on their index finger, not to mention 4 covenant abilities.

its terrible

it wont take taht long as even right now we have people giving similar feedback so hopefully once the system is up for testing in beta we get more feedback and see that maybe just maybe they make the change and hit the switch early enough

[Nevcairiel]

a person who doesnt play for optimization will not be effected in their play no matter if the change is made or not

But thats where you are wrong, and you are just ignoring any argument telling you the opposite. So this discussion is pointless, and therefor over. You just wanted confirmation, not a discussion.

You just keep dismissing people that keep telling you that they will be affected, calling their opinions meaningless ("their opinion have no weight"). Just one line after saying you are not dismissing people. You know this is dismissing, right?

I, and many others, want meaningful choices in our character development (and a choice is not meaningful if I can just change my mind every 5 minutes). No matter how often you keep telling us that we don't matter.

[MrLachyG]

The problem is not even the min-maxing in itself.
The problem is that Blizzard will release covenants in one way, then nerf some of them to shit in the 9.1 patch because some of them happened to be overused, then attempt to correct the said shitness in 9.2, then double-back in 9.3, all while giving the middle finger to the players who chose it.
All because they're completely incapable of balancing a pen on their index finger, not to mention 4 covenant abilities.

yeah this is the big worry, which is why it just makes more sense to let people change it at will. if it's difficult to change can you imagine how fucked it will be if they nerf something right before mythic raid opens? I genuinely think Blizzard seem to have turned around when it comes to listening and I hope they listen on this issue. everything else about SL looks pretty darn good so hopefully they listen

[Tomana]

yeah this is the big worry, which is why it just makes more sense to let people change it at will. if it's difficult to change can you imagine how fucked it will be if they nerf something right before mythic raid opens? I genuinely think Blizzard seem to have turned around when it comes to listening and I hope they listen on this issue. everything else about SL looks pretty darn good so hopefully they listen

Either that, or allow people, once they reached "exalted" with one covenant (whatever that will mean in SL), to start working on another and allow free swaps.
Or, failing that, if they are changing covenant abilities during the course of the expansion, then your covenant choice is reset and you can pick a new one, while the progress acquired is kept.
There are many possible solutions, the problem is that Blizzard will pick none of those... -_-

[Thenatural]

I generally agree that having all covenant abilities available to everyone is not a big deal.

People who think covenants are going to fail are setting them as something this expansion *needs* to get right in order to be a success. They're wrong and trying to find something to justify why they don't like SL.

Covenants don't need to be anything more than cosmetic choices for the game to be good, just like we don't need a new race or class. The game just needs to be good at a base level. Classic is proof that you don't need a million systems all stacked on top of each other to keep people engaged. There is something to be said for having MMO elements make a return, like having loot be loot, and thus, making gear important again. It has been years since I have opened up a dungeon journal and looked at the loot table and drooled over a piece of gear, that sort of thing alone is worth more than any covenant system could be, and I'm definitely not alone.

[Amariw]

SL has more potential negatives, but i generally agree, abilities should be switchable.

[Redroniksre]

Story and Aesthetics is not a meaningful difference, why in gods name do people keep touting that? It is like saying if they made a Diablo game with only one class, but it's okay because "The different weapon types are a meaningful difference!". In order for it to be meaningful, it has to have an impact in your day to day life with the game, and it has to be something that you dedicate to (though not incredibly tough to change). The way covenants are, means that i am no longer just a rogue, but a Venthyr rogue, for example. There is a big difference (a meaningful one, one might say) between me and say a Kyrian rogue. Transmog being the only difference would mean that if i equip the Uldir set, am i now an Uldir rogue? No, i am just a rogue, the same as every other one.

[Amariw]

But thats where you are wrong, and you are just ignoring any argument telling you the opposite. So this discussion is pointless, and therefor over. You just wanted confirmation, not a discussion.

You just keep dismissing people that keep telling you that they will be affected, calling their opinions meaningless ("their opinion have no weight"). Just one line after saying you are not dismissing people. You know this is dismissing, right?

I, and many others, want meaningful choices in our character development (and a choice is not meaningful if I can just change my mind every 5 minutes). No matter how often you keep telling us that we don't matter.

I'm not the original poster, but my two cents: i can respect and understand this, but it mostly goes against wow design. Hear me out: WoW has moved further and further away from power based perament choices over the years. The biggest move i think was allowing dual specc so talents aren't such a hassle to switch, and it only gotten more since. I love it this way, but i completely understand if you prefer talent being a more permanent decision.

But doing that in wow is like adding m+ in final fantasy (a game revolving around cooperation and less about timers, personal achievement and limit pushing). It goes against the spirit of changes made until then. I don't have data to know if the majority of wow players would like it or not, but i suspect they won't, because its like the game devs telling them "this game you played since around classic is not something we wanna enhance, but change". Wow players are used to be able to pick story choices regardless of player power. It alienates me to know I'll have to pick a bad story decision just to get a good power, and i suspect I'm not the only one.

[Grimbold21]

Pathfinder exists.

[ErrandRunner]

Pathfinder exists.

Do you expect Blizzard to remove a major time-sink and risk not getting those MAUs up? MAUs are more important to them than player satisfaction with the content.

[docterfreeze]

If they're smart about it they will let as many people into beta as possible, gather as much data as possible, and tune covenants before launch. Don't touch them post-launch.

[MrLachyG]

Either that, or allow people, once they reached "exalted" with one covenant (whatever that will mean in SL), to start working on another and allow free swaps.
Or, failing that, if they are changing covenant abilities during the course of the expansion, then your covenant choice is reset and you can pick a new one, while the progress acquired is kept.
There are many possible solutions, the problem is that Blizzard will pick none of those... -_-

well they have already indicated in a few interviews that if they can't make it work they will allow people to swap freely. so here's hoping they just end up doing that anyway. i mean they will have to have some kind of system for those who play multi role classes anyway, so they might just come to the realisation that it's just better to let people change whenever they want (which it sounds like they are open to)

[Tomana]

well they have already indicated in a few interviews that if they can't make it work they will allow people to swap freely. so here's hoping they just end up doing that anyway.

Yes, at some point during 9.3, they probably will

[MrLachyG]

Do you expect Blizzard to remove a major time-sink and risk not getting those MAUs up? MAUs are more important to them than player satisfaction with the content.

that literally makes no sense at all. first off, for a player to be included on the MAU they only need to log in once a month. secondly, the best way to get MAU's is to make sure the content is good. also, Pathfinder isn't a major time sink - if you play the game you get it. I don't see how doing emissaries or completing storyline quests is a time sink - you do those plus a bit of exploring and you get it. raiding is more of a time sink than achieving pathfinder.

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Yes, at some point during 9.3, they probably will

haha ever the sceptic - we will see

[razorpax]

But thats where you are wrong, and you are just ignoring any argument telling you the opposite. So this discussion is pointless, and therefor over. You just wanted confirmation, not a discussion.

You just keep dismissing people that keep telling you that they will be affected, calling their opinions meaningless ("their opinion have no weight"). Just one line after saying you are not dismissing people. You know this is dismissing, right?

I, and many others, want meaningful choices in our character development (and a choice is not meaningful if I can just change my mind every 5 minutes). No matter how often you keep telling us that we don't matter.

ok so if you are in teh covenant because you like the cosmetic option and the story option and wont switch covenants if the ability is not the best then you are in 0 ways negatively effected

i get the argument "but i might get told to go switch abilities because with it being easily swappable random groups will ask me to"
the counter to that is that you get 0 negative consequences from saying "no thank you i prefer this ability" to that random leader

you want meaningful choices for your character development....thats what the story choices and cosmetics give right??

as you have said you choose because you prefer the covenant

the choice being watered down because you get to...choose more???
choose the ability that fits your covenant if you want. Choose the ability that fits your character. It all depends on your PERSONAL decision.

There are a group of players that say "i want this covenant but the otehr one has the better ability so i must choose that because i like optimizing my cahracter.

but hey how dare we ask for more choice to make the system not feel like its cutting off a hand if you want the ability that is good for your OS because little jimmy doesnt like the fact that he has the OPTION to go and swap the ability he currently has

sometimes peoples opinions should be dismissed in situations like the pvp one i described.

Little timmy who plays for cosmetics is not going to decide the covenant system is meaningless just because he gets an extra option that serves as something extra and meaningless in terms of his playstyle compared to little jimmy who wants to see if he can get rank 1 on mythic council

without the system
timmy is uneffected
with it timmy is...uneffected

he still has the choice and even without it his playstyle will remain untouched but you want to use "what about if a group says change" as a reason to which the solution is "say no" since you are essentially telling me that in terms of this system changing

if you are ok with saying "no the system is fine" you are also ok with telling randoms "no my choice is fine"

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Pathfinder exists.

completely removed from a system connected to player power

blizzard cant nerf pathfinder
they cant tell you "hey we know you unlocked pathfinder yesterday but now you have to redo half of the progress"
tahts what the covenant ability system will be like because since it is connected to player power it will be ADJUSTED throughout the expansion

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Do you expect Blizzard to remove a major time-sink and risk not getting those MAUs up? MAUs are more important to them than player satisfaction with the content.

if people dont understand how MAUs work they really shouldnt post this

pathfinder depending on what is currently available can be unlocked in less than a month.....thus not boosting mau

you also have to play the content and since they have kept this system that means people keep doing it

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I'm not the original poster, but my two cents: i can respect and understand this, but it mostly goes against wow design. Hear me out: WoW has moved further and further away from power based perament choices over the years. The biggest move i think was allowing dual specc so talents aren't such a hassle to switch, and it only gotten more since. I love it this way, but i completely understand if you prefer talent being a more permanent decision.

But doing that in wow is like adding m+ in final fantasy (a game revolving around cooperation and less about timers, personal achievement and limit pushing). It goes against the spirit of changes made until then. I don't have data to know if the majority of wow players would like it or not, but i suspect they won't, because its like the game devs telling them "this game you played since around classic is not something we wanna enhance, but change". Wow players are used to be able to pick story choices regardless of player power. It alienates me to know I'll have to pick a bad story decision just to get a good power, and i suspect I'm not the only one.

thats one point of it

i mean i dont like the kyrian or night fae covenants in terms of story or looks but if i have to choose one to make my character competitive then it will kinda suck.

Plus this is the first time where we will be told "hey we know you unlocked stuff in this story choice but we nerfed your reason for choosing it so go unlock stuff in this other story choice which we may or may not nerf this week"

[Asrialol]

They should remove all things that locks "something in place" just to make it "meaningful". Classes, for instance. I want my main to be able to be any class, any spec. Why not? How would this be negative?

[razorpax]

I generally agree that having all covenant abilities available to everyone is not a big deal.

People who think covenants are going to fail are setting them as something this expansion *needs* to get right in order to be a success. They're wrong and trying to find something to justify why they don't like SL.

Covenants don't need to be anything more than cosmetic choices for the game to be good, just like we don't need a new race or class. The game just needs to be good at a base level. Classic is proof that you don't need a million systems all stacked on top of each other to keep people engaged. There is something to be said for having MMO elements make a return, like having loot be loot, and thus, making gear important again. It has been years since I have opened up a dungeon journal and looked at the loot table and drooled over a piece of gear, that sort of thing alone is worth more than any covenant system could be, and I'm definitely not alone.

i cant wait to have a BiS list again and not ahve to worry about "did it get this corruption or TF" except for the whole gem socket thing but professions look like they will be useful

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They should remove all things that locks "something in place" just to make it "meaningful". Classes, for instance. I want my main to be able to be any class, any spec. Why not? How would this be negative?

is that all??
I have seen taht and the pathfinder comparison and neither make any actual sense because
1. pathfinder isnt player progression
2. classes are not player progression but the character itself

im sorry i like the idea of having more choice when it comes to a system designed to be a story and narrative based choice that has something important like a class ability that can be great for one spec and shit for the other

fuck choice right

[Lierial]

i agree on 1 pt with the original poster there is only one negative .... this one stops from even considering anything else because it ends sl right away before it is even released no matter what they do.

they taking lvls the game for me is done *period* nothing they can do or offer will make up for that