Filling gaps in retribution rotation

[Kokolums]

Sometimes I have a gap in my ret rotation. How do I fix this?

I always hit Templar's Verdict when its up. I try to keep Crusader's Strike at 0/2 charges. I'm hitting Blade of Justice or Judgement when lit. Sometimes, everything is on CD for like 3+ seconds and there are no buttons to hit. I find myself saving Wake of Ashes not for optimal DPS but just to fill the gap by giving me 5 Holy Power to spend.

Possible fixes:

1. Get more haste?
2. Respec from Blade of Wrath to Fires of Justice which should fill the gaps better.
3. Respec into Hammer of Wrath and use that to fill the gap and generate 1 Holy Power.
4. Use Memory of Lucid Dreams essence to refund Holy Power to help fill the gaps.

Or is this a case where I am supposed to stay specced in Fires of Justice until I get enough haste then select Blade of Wrath?

Toon:

31% crit
18% haste
30% mastery
15% vers

talents: 1213231
trinkets: 455 vial of animated blood, 460 humming black dragonscale
level 84 neck
essences: vision of perfection rk 2 (main), Breath of the Dying rk 2, Conflict and Strife rk 1, Essence of the Focusing Iris rk 3

Azerite powers: 2x Lights Decree, 1x Avenger's Might, 1x Expurgation

https://raider.io/characters/us/stormrage/Kuggerwatt

[Tyris Flare]

The spec always has gaps even if you play perfectly. It is designed that way to allow you to use utility abilities.

The design is silly, but ultimately there is nothing you can do about it.

E: that said, you should run lucid dreams minor for dungeon cleave to help a little bit and hopefully get off more divine storms. HoW is also good since you should be using Crusade at this point anyway.

[xxcloud417xx]

Oof... Just a lot of sub-optimal going on here, it's tough to even know where to start.

Talents:
Row one changes marginally, but whatever sims highest between Righteous Verdict or Execution Sentence for ST damage. For AoE use Zeal.
Row 2, Hammer of Wrath for sure. It should also speed your rotation up since you get to cast it during Wings, and VoP is our BiS essence, so we get lots of wings.
Row 3, whatever
Row 4, Wake of Ashes, no contest here.
Row 5, Cavalier is cool if you're bad at moving. Unbreakable Spirit is actually a DPS (and utility/survivability) gain. You get a shorter CD on Shield of Vengeance, which means more Damage if you're good at using it to DPS
Row 6, Crusade, Crusade, Crusade Crusade. Divine Purpose hasn't been a viable choice all expac. Inquisition has been beaten out by Crusade this tier. Crusade gives you longer Wings, and so much friggin Haste, that you can forget about stacking it, and go for a sweet Crit/Vers build. Your Wings procs will be so juicy with Crusade too.

Essences:
You're pretty much good here. VoP Major is BiS. Minors you should be using Strife and Breath of the Dying. You can sorta flip between using Focusing Iris or Lucid Dreams. (Lucid I think gives you a more versatile option since it's better for both ST and for Cleave/AoE than Focusing Iris, which is better but only for ST).

Azerite Traits:

Empyrean Power is gonna help a ton with your rotation feeling faster, by just making it proccier (that's not a word, but whatever). Don't run more than 1 of those, however.
Light's Decree and Avenger's Might should literally be the other 5 slots. Either go 3x Decree, or 3x Avenger's Might. Personally I sim higher using Avenger's Might, and I also like the ridiculous amount of Mastery you get when you get wings (and yes, it even happens during a Wings proc from Vision of Perfection) so you do some crazy extra Holy Damage.
As far as Azerite Traits go, it's tough to get that optimal setup right now though, so just try as best you can to do that (I myself only have 1x Light's Decree, 1x Empyrean Power, 3x Avenger's Might and my last trait ended up being a Relentless Inquisitor)

Trinkets:
Vita-Charged Titanshard > Humming Black Dragonscale, so try and get one of those.
Torment in a Jar is good for straight AoE fights.
Ashvane's Razorcoral sims pretty high, but requires a modicum of skill in using it, and isn't optimal on certain things.
Vial is a pretty good all-around on-use though.

Final things:
Your neck level is fine, and your stat distribution is fine too. You end up wanting to run less actual Haste in your gear with a Crusade build since you get some free Haste basically. Crit is your friend at this point, and so is Vers. On the topic of gaps in the rotation; tbh they just sorta happen man. Even I get 2-3 second gaps of literally nothing to press sometimes. Just is what it is.

Anyway, hope this helps, and here's my page if you just want to compare too.

https://raider.io/characters/us/thrall/Zalein

[ipoststuff]

We can't avoid gaps, that's just the way spec is designed. But we can reduce the number of empty GCDs.
Blade of wrath is fine. You should get 1 Empyrean Power trait.

I always hit Templar's Verdict when its up.

Use TV when cs,judgment,boj are all on cooldown OR you have 5 HP. Don't use it as soon as you have 3 HP.

I try to keep Crusader's Strike at 0/2 charges

2nd charge of CS is our least priorty. If you have everything else on cooldown AND don't have finisher ready, basicly if you have no other option then you should use 2nd CS.

[xxcloud417xx]

We can't avoid gaps, that's just the way spec is designed. But we can reduce the number of empty GCDs.
Blade of wrath is fine. You should get 1 Empyrean Power trait.

Use TV when cs,judgment,boj are all on cooldown OR you have 5 HP. Don't use it as soon as you have 3 HP.

2nd charge of CS is our least priorty. If you have everything else on cooldown AND don't have finisher ready, basically if you have no other option then you should use 2nd CS.

Okay, so this is straight-up wrong, you do NOT pool up to 5 Holy Power. If you have the 3 charges of Holy Power, dump them into a TV or a Divine Storm. The only exception is if you have Judgement off CD and you can apply it before hitting your TV. Otherwise, dump that shit. Ret has more of a Priority, which roughly amounts to:

Wake of Ashes (unless you're gonna severely overcap your Holy Power, then dump it first then Wake in most circumstances.) > Judgement (unless you somehow have 5 Holy Power which you really shouldn't ever unless you just hit Wake) > TV/DS > BoJ > Hammer of Wrath > Crusader Strike (regardless of charges. CS hits like a wet noodle, only generates 1 Holy Power, and is always last.)

One other note for Empyrean Power for Single-Target. Try not to consume your Judgement debuff with it if you can TV instead at that moment. TV will do more damage than even an empowered Divine Storm, so you want to get the extra damage on that instead.

[capri sunset]

Okay, so this is straight-up wrong, you do NOT pool up to 5 Holy Power. If you have the 3 charges of Holy Power, dump them into a TV or a Divine Storm. The only exception is if you have Judgement off CD and you can apply it before hitting your TV. Otherwise, dump that shit. Ret has more of a Priority, which roughly amounts to:

Wake of Ashes (unless you're gonna severely overcap your Holy Power, then dump it first then Wake in most circumstances.) > Judgement (unless you somehow have 5 Holy Power which you really shouldn't ever unless you just hit Wake) > TV/DS > BoJ > Crusader Strike (regardless of charges. CS hits like a wet noodle, only generates 1 Holy Power, and is always last.)

I'm very curious where you got this from? Our gameplay ever since holy power was increased to 5 has been to spend at 5 in order to keep things from sitting off cd, with exceptions - not the other way around. Right now, you BoJ at <=3, Judge at <=4, CS at <=4 only while approaching or at 2 charges except during crusade/execute where HoW replaces it. There're other exceptions based on remaining cds, procs, and while stacking crusade/last gcd of crusade, but if you just spend at 3 save for judging then you will lose holy power over time.

[JoakimB]

Okay, so this is straight-up wrong, you do NOT pool up to 5 Holy Power. If you have the 3 charges of Holy Power, dump them into a TV or a Divine Storm. The only exception is if you have Judgement off CD and you can apply it before hitting your TV. Otherwise, dump that shit. Ret has more of a Priority, which roughly amounts to:

Wake of Ashes (unless you're gonna severely overcap your Holy Power, then dump it first then Wake in most circumstances.) > Judgement (unless you somehow have 5 Holy Power which you really shouldn't ever unless you just hit Wake) > TV/DS > BoJ > Crusader Strike (regardless of charges. CS hits like a wet noodle, only generates 1 Holy Power, and is always last.)

One other note for Empyrean Power for Single-Target. Try not to consume your Judgement debuff with it if you can TV instead at that moment. TV will do more damage than even an empowered Divine Storm, so you want to get the extra damage on that instead.

I'm very curious where you got this from? Our gameplay ever since holy power was increased to 5 has been to spend at 5 in order to keep things from sitting off cd, with exceptions - not the other way around. Right now, you BoJ at <=3, Judge at <=4, CS at <=4 only while approaching or at 2 charges except during crusade/execute where HoW replaces it. There're other exceptions based on remaining cds, procs, and while stacking crusade/last gcd of crusade, but if you just spend at 3 save for judging then you will lose holy power over time.

Agree with capri sunset here, why do you think thats the case to use TV as soon as you hit 3 holypower? Everywhere I read it says the opposite. Quote from Icy Veins:
"We begin with the priority of Holy Power generation, which you should utilize until you are either at 5 Holy Power, or until the next generator you use would put you over 5 Holy Power (thus wasting the excess)."

Also in every single rotation priority list it doesnt say anywhere that you should use TV as soon as you hit 3 holy power. If you do, it kinda destroys the gameplay wasting alot of spells and even Crusade/Wings.

So im really looking forward to see the answer for the "so this is straight-up wrong" tbh.

[xxcloud417xx]

Agree with capri sunset here, why do you think thats the case to use TV as soon as you hit 3 holypower? Everywhere I read it says the opposite. Quote from Icy Veins:
"We begin with the priority of Holy Power generation, which you should utilize until you are either at 5 Holy Power, or until the next generator you use would put you over 5 Holy Power (thus wasting the excess)."

Also in every single rotation priority list it doesnt say anywhere that you should use TV as soon as you hit 3 holy power. If you do, it kinda destroys the gameplay wasting alot of spells and even Crusade/Wings.

So im really looking forward to see the answer for the "so this is straight-up wrong" tbh.

From experience, you're going to have more opportunity to overcap if you don't just dump it. Let's say you have 4 Holy Power. Then you get a BoJ proc, you don't want to hit that proc unless you dump into a TV, since that'll generate an extra wasted Holy Power. If you're just dumping the Holy Power, this scenario is less likely to happen; you can immediately use your proc and it's good. The issue is when you get chain BoJ procs and you're capped, it feels fucking bad. You're less likely to be letting a proc sit for an extra GCD or 2 if you just dump at 3. Not to mention you're not losing the possibility for another proc; You can get chain procs of BoJ while doing other stuff, but you may just not get to if it's sitting off CD for a GCD or two. Let's say again you're capped at 4 or 5, get a BoJ proc, then you need to dump it with TV, then Empyrean Power Procs, well now you should be dumping that, meanwhile your BoJ proc just sits there instead of generating another proc possibly.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm very curious where you got this from? Our gameplay ever since holy power was increased to 5 has been to spend at 5 in order to keep things from sitting off cd, with exceptions - not the other way around. Right now, you BoJ at <=3, Judge at <=4, CS at <=4 only while approaching or at 2 charges except during crusade/execute where HoW replaces it. There're other exceptions based on remaining cds, procs, and while stacking crusade/last gcd of crusade, but if you just spend at 3 save for judging then you will lose holy power over time.

How do you lose Holy Power over time? You're running a higher risk of over-capping which is worse, and as I explained, you run the risk of completely losing out on procs. TV and DS do pretty-much half our DPS, hit more of them. Besides, you're almost always under wings now with VoP in your Major slot, and Crusade benefits from you dumping your spenders quickly.

[Gestopft]

How do you lose Holy Power over time? You're running a higher risk of over-capping which is worse, and as I explained, you run the risk of completely losing out on procs.

You lose Holy Power over time when you generators have finished their CD and aren't being used. Over-capping is only a consideration with BoJ when you are at 4 or 5 HoPo. Letting generators sit idle is WAAAY worse than that.

TV and DS do pretty-much half our DPS, hit more of them. Besides, you're almost always under wings now with VoP in your Major slot, and Crusade benefits from you dumping your spenders quickly.

You hit more TV/DS when you generate more HoPo.
You generate more HoPo when you...prioritize generators.

[xxcloud417xx]

You lose Holy Power over time when you generators have finished their CD and aren't being used. Over-capping is only a consideration with BoJ when you are at 4 or 5 HoPo. Letting generators sit idle is WAAAY worse than that.

You hit more TV/DS when you generate more HoPo.
You generate more HoPo when you...prioritize generators.

On paper, sure, but in practice, you really won't have your generator sit there. Just pump TVs into the boss. You'll risk over-capping much more than you'll risk losing Holy Power because of having Crusader Strike sit on CD.

[Nattylights]

Empyrean Power is gonna help a ton with your rotation feeling faster, by just making it proccier (that's not a word, but whatever). Don't run more than 1 of those, however.

Hey - Do you think you could explain why one 1?

[Bloodyleech]

Hey - Do you think you could explain why one 1?

You only want 1 for the proc, not for the damage increase. Other traits are better when stacked. But 1 of this trait is cool because of free Divine Storms.

[Gestopft]

On paper, sure, but in practice

"I know better than all of the guides and sims"

Just pump TVs into the boss. You'll risk over-capping much more than you'll risk losing Holy Power because of having Crusader Strike sit on CD.

Again: over-capping is not an issue if you are at 0, 1, 2, or 3 HoPo. It's only a potential issue if you happen to be at 4 or 5 HoPo when you get a BoJ reset, and even then you are only losing one GCD of generation. Prioritizing TV at 3 HoPo means that every time you get to 3 HoPo with generators ready to use, you are delaying their generative power and thus losing potential uses.

[Nattylights]

You only want 1 for the proc

Does stacking this trait increase the # of times you get a proc?

[Neuroticaine]

It's actually a bit of both.

1) Prioritize generators over spenders unless using a generator will over cap
2) Do not sit around waiting for generators to come off cooldown. If you have 3HP and nothing else to do, use a spender.

[Gestopft]

It's actually a bit of both.

1) Prioritize generators over spenders unless using a generator will over cap
2) Do not sit around waiting for generators to come off cooldown. If you have 3HP and nothing else to do, use a spender.

Number two is included in number one. "Prioritize generators" doesn't mean you shouldn't use TV at 3 (or 4) HoPo if you have nothing else. It just means that generators take priority in those situations.

- - - Updated - - -

Does stacking this trait increase the # of times you get a proc?

It doesn't. Stacking only increases the damage of the proc, not the frequency, which is why having only one is recommended. (This is true for most traits across all specs- numerical increases stack; proc chances etc. don't)

[xxcloud417xx]

Number two is included in number one. "Prioritize generators" doesn't mean you shouldn't use TV at 3 (or 4) HoPo if you have nothing else. It just means that generators take priority in those situations.

The problem is that anything over 3 will usually have a high risk of overcapping you and making you lose out on procs.

And yeah, the guide says one thing, but in actual practice, you’re not going to see the 2 charges of Crusader Strike sitting there and making you lose Holy Power. It just doesn’t happen as often as people are thinking. Listen I’ve been playing this current version of Ret since it was implemented in Legion through every tier on Mythic, and I don’t think I’ve ever run into the issue of “oh man, so much going on I can’t hit Crusader strike to put it off of 2 charges.” It’s pretty much a non-issue, and getting used to pushing TV as soon as you can is a better skill to learn since it’s going to help you maximize usage in your burst windows.

- - - Updated - - -

It's actually a bit of both.

1) Prioritize generators over spenders unless using a generator will over cap
2) Do not sit around waiting for generators to come off cooldown. If you have 3HP and nothing else to do, use a spender.

This is pretty much accurate, the thing with your first point is that honestly, hitting TV at 3 Holy Power limits the risk of overr-capping significantly. Lets you also utilize more procs, and also allows you to still hit judgement right before a TV cast to get that extra damage, with 2 empty Holy Power slots to spare.

[Gestopft]

The problem is that anything over 3 will usually have a high risk of overcapping you and making you lose out on procs.

How do you lose out on proc? If you get a reset with 4 or 5 HoPo, you delay BoJ by one GCD in order to TV- and since there's always going to be at least 2 GCDs between procs, it's miiiighty hard to miss out on one. There is no "high risk" of over-capping.

And yeah, the guide says one thing, but in actual practice, you’re not going to see the 2 charges of Crusader Strike sitting there and making you lose Holy Power. It just doesn’t happen as often as people are thinking.

Judgment and HoW also generate HoPo, and neither of them have charges so the time they are sitting unused the CD is actually getting wasted

It’s pretty much a non-issue, and getting used to pushing TV as soon as you can is a better skill to learn since it’s going to help you maximize usage in your burst windows.

Crusade lasts 25 seconds, which is pretty long as far as CDs go...Rets aren't Fire Mages where every action in the burst window has to be executed perfectly.

Also, you maximize usage by maximizing generation, until you get to the very end and you should make sure to get in a last TV

[Bunchie]

Well I'm just gonna start off by saying you are gonna rely on the Perfection in your neck as your main slot.

Then run Hammer of Wrath so that when you get wings you'll have extra uptime. I also have azerite traits that make me sit at about 30% on average with haste so I don't have much of an issue right now.

I am sitting at 459 on my pally and am running a Judgment spec. Currently I can crit for over 570k in pve and 230k in pvp fully buffed with all of my cds, just with Judgment.

[Thundering]

The spec always has gaps even if you play perfectly. It is designed that way to allow you to use utility abilities.

The design is silly, but ultimately there is nothing you can do about it.

E: that said, you should run lucid dreams minor for dungeon cleave to help a little bit and hopefully get off more divine storms. HoW is also good since you should be using Crusade at this point anyway.

Why is this silly the utility that a paladin brings is fun and if there was no time to use it, then it can never be used.