The Last of Us Part II

[Elim Garak]

Hero means morally good person of the story.

If we are talking about story (and we are) then

hero (n.)
- the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

principal character (n.)
- agonist, central figure, hero, heroine, leading figure, leading lady, leading man, main character, main figure, protagonist

[Kallisto]

If we are talking about story (and we are) then

hero (n.)
- the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

principal character (n.)
- agonist, central figure, hero, heroine, leading figure, leading lady, leading man, main character, main figure, protagonist

No we're not. By your crazy definition then we can twist gul fucking dukat the butcher of bajor as a fucking hero.

[Elim Garak]

No we're not. By your crazy definition then we can twist gul fucking dukat the butcher of bajor as a fucking hero.

Yes, we are. And no we cannot because:

villain (n.)
- (in a novel, play, film, etc) the main evil character and antagonist to the hero

Gal Dukat is a villain.

P.S. Not my definitions.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You also play as a woman that looks like a man, because fuck beauty or even normal size tits.

I wonder do people think ellie was going for beauty in the first game? Give her a hair cut and some wrappings and she’d look like a boy post apocalyptic scenarios don’t normally play well to beauty.

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I don't really care about the "it's ma'am" aesthetics and/or reality of the new character, I care that a video game company thinks there is any sense in making a video game where the beloved characters that even made players want a sequel are hunted and/or killed off, AND what's more in making you play as the antagonist.

Hunting down and killing the main character of the previous game isn’t really all that far out there of an idea F.E.A.R. 3 did it and for all the flaws the game had that wasn’t one of them. I think one of the grand theft auto games do it to but I’m not sure on that.

There is a ton of story potential to be had with something like killing the old main character especially when there are good reasons to do so like in last of us.

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I can't imagine defending anything Anita Sarkeesian influenced. Devs admitted it themselves.

Idc about the story. I care about the forced non-problem social politics in a game supposed to be about a zombie apocalypse.

Inb4 the numbskulls who are so disconnected from reality that they can't tell the difference between real life social politics and fantasy politics.

Could you give an example of said forced non-problem social politics? I’m genuinely curious All I’ve heard about(and incredibly briefly) is ellie wanting reverence for her girl friend dying or something of the like and that fits right in with a zombie apocalypse Where the genuine is full of revenge seeking family/friends.

[Stormdash]

Why dont you guys like to be challenged and always want the same exact story to be told in every single movie?

Bad guy is bad
Bad guy is used as a means to give the protagonist a "free pass" to kill other people and do inhuman things
Its ok guys this are all bad guys! Its ok to kill them!
Revenge is good and sweet and there are no consequences
Protagonist gets the girl

In my eyes, every movie with this plot is a kids movie.

You can "challenge" the literary norms that fuel people's embrace of genre fiction all you want -- 99/100 you'll walk away broke, though. Has nothing to do with "woke", it's not "woke" to say "you are bad people for wanting more of the characters you enjoyed from our first game, in fact, you should be even more excited to watch them suffer and die for doing the things you love them for". It's just pretentious and idiotic.

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I wonder do people think ellie was going for beauty in the first game? Give her a hair cut and some wrappings and she’d look like a boy post apocalyptic scenarios don’t normally play well to beauty.

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Hunting down and killing the main character of the previous game isn’t really all that far out there of an idea F.E.A.R. 3 did it and for all the flaws the game had that wasn’t one of them. I think one of the grand theft auto games do it to but I’m not sure on that.

There is a ton of story potential to be had with something like killing the old main character especially when there are good reasons to do so like in last of us.

There's good reason for that character to want to kill Joel, and no good reason whatsoever to want to kill Ellie. That isn't the same as there being an actual, objectively "good reason". What's that meme? "Cool motive, still murder". Joel did the right thing saving Ellie. Joel is, though, a dark and violent man and killing him off is a pretty straightforward by-the-numbers literary choice. It's even doable to have Abby kill him for revenge and still make her a worthwhile deuteragonist and not have her despised for it in the end.

What you can't do is have her kill Joel, then force the player against their will to take over playing as her while you try to hunt and kill Ellie - who never did anything wrong in the first place by Abby until she killed Joel --and expect the player to actually like or embrace this character the way they did Joel and Ellie in the first place.

I mean, go through every original trailer reaction/stream for this game. What's the universal theme? "Yay, Ellie's back! Awww she's older! OMG JOEL!" Who is the audience that was like "man, thank God these characters are back so I can put them in the dirt where they belong"?

[segara82]

So when I'm watching the joker movie and he's stabbing and shooting people he's a hero because he's the protag. That makes 0 sense.

And you failed to notice my princess bride quote so don't pretend you know story structure thanks

As per English Oxford Dictionary:
the chief male character in a book, play, or film, who is typically identified with good qualities, and with whom the reader is expected to sympathize.

The Joker example does not really work since he has few good qualities that get destroyed even when you sympathize with him.
Joel, on the other hand, has good qualities, cares about some people and risk his life for them, but he is not a nice person, nor does he want to be one. The world he lives in would punish him for that. Nearly every player sympathises with him and Ellie.

If you do a 180 and turn the previous games protagonists/heroes into the next ones villains/antagonists you need to be a master storyteller to pull that off.
The leaks and NDs behaviour do not bode well IMO.

[Witchblade77]

1) How do you know there is no character development if the game is not even out yet

2) Its the other way around. Literally a 5y old can direct a superman movie
Superman good
Superman defeat bad man
roll credits

I have to disagree with you. what you have described is a BAD superman movie. the thing about superman that most recent adaptations keep missing is that he is good because he doesn't just care about big stuff - he cares about little things too, regular people. that is a character that would stop to console a crying child, stop a suicide of a teenager, hell - help old lady with her groceries. little things are just as important to him as the big things. AND this is a character that never stops trying to talk people out of confrontations. and that is BECAUSE he is so strong that when he actualy joins the fight, the fight is over. superman has a very strong moral core that was instilled into him by his adoptive parents and he STICKS to it. he is a beacon of hope for people because of it.

and... its kinda also fits into this whole discussion we are having about TLOU. good writing comes with character development. claiming that new character comes with zero character development without playing the game and seeing the writing in action is laughable. Joel at the start of the game has zero development as well. we get to know him and see him develop THROUGH the game.

also. lawl at people claiming that zombie apocalypse is not political. what the heck is the martial law by the standing government, settlements going independent from it and the whole firefly resistance is then? apolitical? REALLY??? I don't think people understand what politics are.

P.S. showing us characters from point of view of other people whose actions affected them =/= immediately means that they are "bad guys" now. and we still LITERALLY ONLY KNOW THE BASICS OF SOME OF THE PREMISE. we. know. NOTHING about execution.

[deenman]

No we're not. By your crazy definition then we can twist gul fucking dukat the butcher of bajor as a fucking hero.

its not his crazy definition,its inn all dictionaries,joel by every dictionary is a hero,ofc not by all aspects of a hero,but if you check it,its pretty much most,hes not noble and not legendery,but he is everything else a hero is described as

[Stardrift]

I wonder do people think ellie was going for beauty in the first game? Give her a hair cut and some wrappings and she’d look like a boy post apocalyptic scenarios don’t normally play well to beauty.

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Hunting down and killing the main character of the previous game isn’t really all that far out there of an idea F.E.A.R. 3 did it and for all the flaws the game had that wasn’t one of them. I think one of the grand theft auto games do it to but I’m not sure on that.

There is a ton of story potential to be had with something like killing the old main character especially when there are good reasons to do so like in last of us.

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Could you give an example of said forced non-problem social politics? I’m genuinely curious All I’ve heard about(and incredibly briefly) is ellie wanting reverence for her girl friend dying or something of the like and that fits right in with a zombie apocalypse Where the genuine is full of revenge seeking family/friends.

Lolwut

Get lost fanboi. Go back to Twitter or something.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Lolwut

Get lost fanboi. Go back to Twitter or something.

I’m not even a fan.... the only reason I’m interested in the game at all Is because they seem to be doing kinda out there things with the story I was gonna give the game a pass.

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There's good reason for that character to want to kill Joel, and no good reason whatsoever to want to kill Ellie. That isn't the same as there being an actual, objectively "good reason". What's that meme? "Cool motive, still murder". Joel did the right thing saving Ellie. Joel is, though, a dark and violent man and killing him off is a pretty straightforward by-the-numbers literary choice. It's even doable to have Abby kill him for revenge and still make her a worthwhile deuteragonist and not have her despised for it in the end.

What you can't do is have her kill Joel, then force the player against their will to take over playing as her while you try to hunt and kill Ellie - who never did anything wrong in the first place by Abby until she killed Joel --and expect the player to actually like or embrace this character the way they did Joel and Ellie in the first place.

I mean, go through every original trailer reaction/stream for this game. What's the universal theme? "Yay, Ellie's back! Awww she's older! OMG JOEL!" Who is the audience that was like "man, thank God these characters are back so I can put them in the dirt where they belong"?

To my understanding most of the story is still unknown so while there might not be a good reason to want to kill ellie now it could easily be revealed as the story goes on even more so if she follows after Joel who as you said he is dark and violent.

As to rooting for Abby that could very well not be the goal. This wouldn’t be the first game ever where you don’t play as a shiny hero and your meant to have miss giving about the things You do and how the story develops. It can be done super well like say god of war and some other games if written well this could be another example.

[Elim Garak]

As to rooting for Abby that could very well not be the goal. This wouldn’t be the first game ever where you don’t play as a shiny hero and your meant to have miss giving about the things You do and how the story develops. It can be done super well like say god of war and some other games if written well this could be another example.

The hero is not someone good. The hero is just a character you root for. The one who slays enemies and overcomes obstacles. The one who wins.

If you can't root for the character you are playing as (the hero of the game) - you can't play. If that happens to be the case the story literally sucks at that point. It is very important for the audience to root for the character they are playing. It's essential. If it's a story-based game like this one.

Kratos is not good, but you root for him. You understand him. You want him to win - otherwise, you wouldn't play the game.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The hero is not someone good. The hero is just a character you root for. The one who slays enemies and overcomes obstacles. The one who wins.

If you can't root for the character you are playing as (the hero of the game) - you can't play. If that happens to be the case the story literally sucks at that point. It is very important for the audience to root for the character they are playing. It's essential. If it's a story-based game like this one.

Kratos is not good, but you root for him. You understand him. You want him to win - otherwise, you wouldn't play the game.

Ya if your rotting for kratos past GOW 1(or side games) then I don’t really know what to say. Dude kills tons of people for no reason and destroys the world just for revenge smashing servants in door holds, killing fathers who helped him because he wants to kill there daughters as well murdering his allies for no good reason in brutal ways. Mabye in the side games where the brutality is toned down and he’s dealing with person issues like his brother or daughter it makes sense to root for him but not at all in 2-3.

You also don’t need to root for a character to play a game though out border lands 2 I wanted hansomjack to win as a lot of what he says is true and he would have made Pandora a better place but that doesn’t make him the hero and didn’t make me stop playing the game because I wasn’t rooting for the character I was playing as. Or for an example that isn’t me when the walking dead season 3 came out and you weren’t playing as clementine a ton of people said they didn’t care about the new playable character and were just trying to make things good for Clem they weren’t rooting for the new guy but were still playing the game.

You don’t have to agree with the character your playing as or the things you do to play a game or enjoy a story this has never been the case.

[Skorpionss]

You don’t have to agree with the character your playing as or the things you do to play a game or enjoy a story this has never been the case.

I can't speak for anyone else but myself, and I can tell you that yes I absolutely do need to root for the character I play as. And while I haven't played the God of War games, I can see why one would root for Kratos even in the latter games, because you have an attachment to him and you don't care about those randoms he kills, even if some are/were his allies.

Same reasons people root for the Joker in the movie, or every single GTA protagonist.

As for the game itself I think it would have been better if you started the game with Abby, hunting someone unknown and then when you finally find them you see it's joel and ellie, you kill joel, and then the game switches to Ellie as the protagonist and you continue for the rest of the game as Ellie.

[Edge-]

This discussion seems to have had its lifecycle and is drifting off-topic periodically. If you'd like to continue it please take it to tells, but keep discussion bout the game itself. If you want to discuss what makes a hero in a game, you can create another thread for that topic. Thanks y'all.

[Elim Garak]

Here's a thought experiment.

We all have played the original and rooted for Joel and Ellie.
Now we play as Ellie in the second game and root for her, obviously, even more so.
Then in the middle of the story, some character you have never rooted for kills Joel

What do you think about that character? Do you want to play as that character? The character who killed Joel - a character you rooted for in the original game? A character Ellie cares for?

Well, buckle up buttercup - you have no choice. Now you play as that character and what is your quest? Kill Ellie. The character you rooted for in this game from the beginning.

What kind of writing is that? For a game? Games are not books, there's a player agency that must be accounted for. Players are more attached to game characters than a reader to a book character.

[Witchblade77]

Here's a thought experiment.

We all have played the original and rooted for Joel and Ellie.
Now we play as Ellie in the second game and root for her, obviously, even more so.
Then in the middle of the story, some character you have never rooted for kills Joel

What do you think about that character? Do you want to play as that character? The character who killed Joel - a character you rooted for in the original game? A character Ellie cares for?

Well, buckle up buttercup - you have no choice. Now you play as that character and what is your quest? Kill Ellie. The character you rooted for in this game from the beginning.

What kind of writing is that? For a game? Games are not books, there's a player agency that must be accounted for. Players are more attached to game characters than a reader to a book character.

here's a thought experiment.

you do not know the details of how we are introduced to a new character. we do not know what is happening with her or whether the game builds up to us rooting for her as well (or do you only ever root for the character you play? because lord knows I rooted for the brothers and look what happened to them in a first game...). we do not know what precisely leads up to Joel's death, how we get to this point. we do not know the details of what happens later. we do not even know when the playable characters switch happens, HOW it happens or whether the switch is permanent (in a first game we switch to Ellie and then back to Joel, remember? and before you say anything about them being allies, as far as we know from trailers and such - both Ellie and Abby seem to be going up against the same cult, so at least in that, they are on the same side)

how about another thought experiment. take any video game narrative. and the describe it in the worst possible terms and then claim how terrible the story is, while ignoring the actual narrative. (in case of TLOU2 we don't even KNOW full narrative yet, because the game is not out). i bet you, you can do that to every rpg ever created, no matter how well written, or highly acclaimed. while not even trying very hard.

please. for the love of god. you. do NOT. KNOW. IF. ITS. BAD. WRITING. we don't know nearly enough to make this claim.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Here's a thought experiment.

We all have played the original and rooted for Joel and Ellie.
Now we play as Ellie in the second game and root for her, obviously, even more so.
Then in the middle of the story, some character you have never rooted for kills Joel

What do you think about that character? Do you want to play as that character? The character who killed Joel - a character you rooted for in the original game? A character Ellie cares for?

Well, buckle up buttercup - you have no choice. Now you play as that character and what is your quest? Kill Ellie. The character you rooted for in this game from the beginning.

What kind of writing is that? For a game? Games are not books, there's a player agency that must be accounted for. Players are more attached to game characters than a reader to a book character.

it depends on the character and how they are written. to go back to my borderlands example hansom jack kills roland (a character you played as in the past game) then spends the rest of the game trying yo kill the other playable characters of the old game and the new ones. If i had a choice to swap which side i was on after he killed roland id do it in a heart beat.

to tie it back to last of us, i have no strong attachment to Ellie or Joel as they are both written as rather bland characters who are done in many other similar story's, if abby is more insetting them either of them id be fine playing as her just as i would have loved to play as/team up with hansom jack.

[Elim Garak]

here's a thought experiment.

You could have just said that you think that the leaks are fake.
It's your money. I will gladly use your money to buy this game and see how it is.

it depends on the character and how they are written. to go back to my borderlands

Why are you bringing up games that are not about the story in the first place or have a very weak story, to begin with? No one plays borderlands for the story. It's a cheesy comedy game about loot.

to tie it back to last of us, i have no strong attachment to Ellie or Joel.

If you have no attachment to Joel and Ellie - that's just you. Most fans of the game have strong attachment to them. They don't love the game for the gameplay and loot.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Why are you bringing up games that are not about the story in the first place or have a very weak story, to begin with? No one plays borderlands for the story. It's a cheesy comedy game about loot.

Because you can have good characters and a interesting story in a comedy game about loot? Hanson Jack is an incredibly well written character and not all of that comes down to comedy I mean they made a whole tell tale series that goes further into The character and a prequel about how he got to where he was. Handsome Jack isn’t a loved character because he drops good loot Or tells a joke he’s loved because he’s written wonderful has interesting goals and interesting back story and a wonderful demeanour it’s not like you see a game fleshing out claptrap’s back story or what makes him tick as a character.

If you have no attachment to Joel and Ellie - that's just you. Most fans of the game have strong attachment to them. They don't love the game for the gameplay and loot.

I’m not a fan which is Probably why I’m not part of the Gestalt Consciousness that droll over such bland paint by numbers character who could be swapped out with any other old man kid paring in a similar story and wouldn’t miss a beat.

The only reason any one cares about the last of us is because of game play and how it was tied into the story in a way naughty dog as incredibly good at doing if it wasn’t for that it would have passed by just like the road did and no one would have cared years later.

[Elim Garak]

Because you can have good characters and a interesting story in a comedy game about loot?

You are missing the point. No one cares that much about characters in games like Borderlands. Heck in Borderlands 3 they killed Maya. It was sad (because I played as her in the previous game) - but whatever. But even they did it right - you don't get to play as the killer.

I’m not a fan

That explains why you don't care, but doesn't explain why you can't understand the fans caring.

The only reason any one cares about the last of us is because of game play

How about no.