Potential Class Hype

[Shiza]

If you don't care what I believe because "you don't like me", why are you continuously asking me questions?

Because I don't need to like you to debate you. This is just a plattform to debate shit. I'm perfectly fine to argue and talk with you about this kind of things, I just don't like you enough to care about what you want and believe when you can't back it up and it contradicts what I would consider reasonable or even desirable. Like, I've already told you that I would be fine with a Tinker class. I would prefer classes like Necromancer or Dark Ranger, but I would certainly try it out if it has an engaging playstyle. I am predominantly opposed to the concept of race restricting the class because it is neither necessary nor reasonable. Demon Hunters should be a one time thing and even then, I would be actually happier if they would open the class up for other races sometimes in the future (especially since my favorite set looks shit on female Blood Elves and I dislike playing male characters).

And I've already told you why I dislike you. You improved on some things, like being more open to alternative specs for Tinker like something artificer energy based, but at some points you remain obnoxious, like your insistance that Tinker has to be race restricted without any true or reasonable arguments. Opening the class to any race will hurt nobody. People like you, who already like Gnomes and Goblins but don't want to play them due to the lack of a fitting class to them have the option, people who not necessarily enjoy Gnomes and Goblins due to aesthetic reasons but enjoy either the style of the class or its gamestyle have other options.

And I would argue that the most likely way Mechs will work is exactly like a toggle button the same as the druid forms or shadow form. Likely giving an armor buff and possibly benefits fitting its tanking style, just as for example back in the Past Monks would gain stagger with the appropriate stance, but when you ask the game you more likely or not still remain the character inside the Mech, just as the Bear form of the Druid has only an aesthetic effect and nothing else.

[Teriz]

Yes, you are arguing that player skill makes your idea work. That means your Tinker vehicle concept hinges on having a skill advantage to get out of a scenario, rather than actually being balanced for WoW PVP.

A 2 on 1 situation requiring skill to get out of doesn't mean that it isn't balanced for WoW PvP. No class is balanced around a 2 on 1 situation.

'Proper ability management' is a gross generalization that could apply to anything. We could be talking about two players controlling the same class like Cho'gall in Heroes of the Storm, and say proper ability management would make it work. It doesn't make the idea any more credible for it. WoW PVP is not designed to factor in these type of class concepts into its balance.

Again, we're talking proper ability management in a PvP situation where you're being double teamed or focus fired, and we're not talking about something as outlandish as two players controlling one character at once.

[Ielenia]

In terms of pure gameplay, the "void" is simply shadow magic. The Death Knight already employs melee shadow magic in multiple abilities.

This is hilarious dishonesty. By that logic, Shadow Priests would not exist since "void is simply shadow magic" and warlocks already have a "shadow dot spec".

By that logic, too, the frost spec of the death knight would not exist because "necromantic frost is simply frost magic" which is the domain of the mage class.

By that logic, as well, the warlock's destruction spec would not exist because "fel fire is simply fire magic" which is the domain of the mage class.

By that logic, again, the priest's Holy and Discipline specs would not exist because... well, both use Holy magic, which is the domain of the paladin class.

Teriz, learn something, for once: "shadow damage" is just a catch-all game mechanic term that encompasses both necromancy, fel, and void. Just like "nature magic" encompasses both wind, earth and lightning magic. And I doubt you'd say that a rock to the face is the same kind of damage of a lightning bolt to the face.

[Teriz]

Alright, then to answer your silly question:

Are you seriously argueing for the Mech to have a seperate hp bar by the way? This has to be the most stupid class fanfiction I've ever heard. So you want a class which is basically not killable because he can at any point just summon a new mech, because he has basically 2 HP bars? Whats next? Give him Warriors active mitigation, DKs selfheal and Monks stagger mechanic while also doing DPS similar to a DPS class? All the while being also a ranged tank who can infinitely kite mobs?

Except he won't be "unkillable". Similar to DvA from overwatch or even the caster form with Druids, a Tinker outside of their mech will have far reduced armor and abilities, and basically be a sitting duck. There should be a fair cooldown in place if their mech gets destroyed, and they have to wait until that CD is finished before they can summon their mech again. In addition, in PvE, Tinker tanks should be allowed to have an additional mech on standby incase their initial mech gets destroyed. Something like that should be disabled for PvP though.

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This is hilarious dishonesty. By that logic, Shadow Priests would not exist since "void is simply shadow magic" and warlocks already have a "shadow dot spec".

By that logic, too, the frost spec of the death knight would not exist because "necromantic frost is simply frost magic" which is the domain of the mage class.

By that logic, as well, the warlock's destruction spec would not exist because "fel fire is simply fire magic" which is the domain of the mage class.

By that logic, again, the priest's Holy and Discipline specs would not exist because... well, both use Holy magic, which is the domain of the paladin class.

If your "logic" is based on breaking down various specs and ignoring various aspects of their abilities, sure.

[Triceron]

A 2 on 1 situation requiring skill to get out of doesn't mean that it isn't balanced for WoW PvP. No class is balanced around a 2 on 1 situation.

Which is exactly the point, and the inherrent problem with your example. An expert against 2 novices is not an example of a class being balanced either, it's just an extreme on the other end of the argument. You aren't addressing the issues, you're just citing an example where a 2 on 1 situation would be favourable to the latter, and for that matter it would be a case of a large skill gap. This has nothing to do with the actual design you are proposing.

Like if we were to point out a flaw in an industrial mask design that it doesn't properly filter harmful viruses, pointing out that some people have strong immune systems isn't addressing the design flaw.

[Teriz]

Which is exactly the point, and the inherrent problem with your example. An expert against 2 novices is not an example of a class being balanced either, it's just an extreme on the other end of the argument. You aren't addressing the issues, you're just citing an example where a 2 on 1 situation would be favourable to the latter, and for that matter it would be a case of a large skill gap. This has nothing to do with the actual design you are proposing.

Again, I wasn't talking about an expert against 2 novices. I'm talking about handling abilities and cool downs in a 2v1 situation. It's silly to believe that people at ALL levels of people don't survive getting focused fired on when they properly use their cool downs and abilities.

Like if we were to point out a flaw in a mask design that doesn't properly filter harmful viruses for use in the industry, pointing out that some people have strong immune systems isn't addressing the design flaw.

And no one was making that argument. Again, my argument was in response to the notion that a Tinker in a destructible vehicle would NEVER be able to survive a 2v1 scenario where they are focus fired on.

[Shiza]

Except he won't be "unkillable". Similar to DvA from overwatch or even the caster form with Druids, a Tinker outside of their mech will have far reduced armor and abilities, and basically be a sitting duck. There should be a fair cooldown in place if their mech gets destroyed, and they have to wait until that CD is finished before they can summon their mech again. In addition, in PvE, Tinker tanks should be allowed to have an additional mech on standby incase their initial mech gets destroyed. Something like that should be disabled for PvP though.

Yeah, but this is stupid. Druids have exactly one HP bar. Their druid or Moonkin form increases their armor and survivability, but no matter in which form they are, once their dead they are dead. What you are demanding is that Tinkers have basically two hp bars and that Tanks have basically a build in battle rez, which is just insanely overpowered to a stupid degree where I feel like you are actually wishing to just be OP with your favorite class for some kind of big dick power fantasy. This would be impossible to balance, either Tinkers are op with their build in brezz and their two hp bars or they lack mitigation and would be incredibly squishy, making it so that nobody would want to play with them. The most reasonable thing to do with the Mech is just make it similar to caster forms. They have one hp bar and when they die, they die. And no, an arena shooter is not the same as a mmo rpg.

I mean, I don't know what kind of modes you play in the game, but you have obviously no idea how classes work. Its the same with your turret fanfiction, it wouldn't be that great to play such a class, we know this due to the demonology warlocks. Turrets are basically just dots with a lifebar which can be killed by AOE mechanics and which a boss can move out of range from and then you are stuck with just resummoning them, especially since you want to have the gameplay even more rely on upgrading turrets and bots which sounds like even a bigger portion of the Tinkers DPS comes solely from pets. It just doesn't works that well in MMOs. Not to mention how obnoxious open world content would be. With Demonology Warlocks, your entire playstyle already is build around sacrificing your imps for instant demobolts instead of really utilizing them, while with a Tinker, you first have to build your turrets and bots up, then you have to empower them to actually do any dmg while your character is even more of a passive bystander than with the Warlock.

These are just not concepts that work well or are fun to play.

[Triceron]

And no one was making that argument. Again, my argument was in response to the notion that a Tinker in a destructible vehicle would NEVER be able to survive a 2v1 scenario where they are focus fired on.

Yes, by using an extreme argument on the other side - A person who is extremely good at managing cooldowns vs two novices.

That example is bogus because it relies on the Tinker having an advantage over their opponents through a (speculative) massive skill gap in order for your idea of a destructable vehicle to survive. It doesn't actually address the scenario presented in a relatively equal skill factor setting, which is the context of the original reply.

It is the same as saying your mask design is fine because people with strong immunity will not get infected easily. It's an extreme argument that isn't even relative to having any design at all.

[Teriz]

Yeah, but this is stupid. Druids have exactly one HP bar. Their druid or Moonkin form increases their armor and survivability, but no matter in which form they are, once their dead they are dead. What you are demanding is that Tinkers have basically two hp bars and that Tanks have basically a build in battle rez, which is just insanely overpowered to a stupid degree where I feel like you are actually wishing to just be OP with your favorite class for some kind of big dick power fantasy.

Druids have one HP bar because they're not inside a vehicle. Also they can't be knocked out of their forms by constant attacks. That's what makes it balanced. In addition, I wouldn't consider the additional mech a battle rez, I'd consider it a big heal CD. Again, considering that he can be knocked out of his mech form, that seems like a fair trade off if things go awry.

This would be impossible to balance, either Tinkers are op with their build in brezz and their two hp bars or they lack mitigation and would be incredibly squishy, making it so that nobody would want to play with them. The most reasonable thing to do with the Mech is just make it similar to caster forms. They have one hp bar and when they die, they die. And no, an arena shooter is not the same as a mmo rpg.

Actually it wouldn't be impossible to balance at all. Again, the major downside is that the Tinker has to maintain their mech or they're in a lot of trouble, and if they lose their mech, they're essentially dead.

I mean, I don't know what kind of modes you play in the game, but you have obviously no idea how classes work. Its the same with your turret fanfiction, it wouldn't be that great to play such a class, we know this due to the demonology warlocks. Turrets are basically just dots with a lifebar which can be killed by AOE mechanics and which a boss can move out of range from and then you are stuck with just resummoning them, especially since you want to have the gameplay even more rely on upgrading turrets and bots which sounds like even a bigger portion of the Tinkers DPS comes solely from pets. It just doesn't works that well in MMOs. Not to mention how obnoxious open world content would be. With Demonology Warlocks, your entire playstyle already is build around sacrificing your imps for instant demobolts instead of really utilizing them, while with a Tinker, you first have to build your turrets and bots up, then you have to empower them to actually do any dmg while your character is even more of a passive bystander than with the Warlock.

Or you can simply have what Shaman had in earlier iterations of WoW where they placed their totem configuration in one ability, and could instantly drop 4 totems. Nothing stops Blizzard from giving Turret-based Tinkers an ability that allows them to place their turrets in a desired configuration with one button press. While your turrets are active, you should also be attacking, using abilities, buffing your turrets, and collecting scrap from your destroyed/expired devices.

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Yes, by using an extreme argument on the other side - A person who is extremely good at managing cooldowns vs two novices.

You're completely making that up. Nowhere did I call the opponents "novices". There's plenty of situations where 2v1s occur and competitions of equal skill are able to escape focus fire through proper use of their abilities.

That example is bogus because it relies on the Tinker having an advantage over their opponents through a (speculative) massive skill gap in order for your idea of a destructable vehicle to survive.

More bad faith arguing. How pathetic.

[Shiza]

Druids have one HP bar because they're not inside a vehicle. Also they can't be knocked out of their forms by constant attacks. That's what makes it balanced. In addition, I wouldn't consider the additional mech a battle rez, I'd consider it a big heal CD. Again, considering that he can be knocked out of his mech form, that seems like a fair trade off if things go awry.



Actually it wouldn't be impossible to balance at all. Again, the major downside is that the Tinker has to maintain their mech or they're in a lot of trouble, and if they lose their mech, they're essentially dead.

Not, it simply is impossible to balance. They can easily avoid deadly abilities and have basically 2 hp bars, which is just op as fuck. It isn't a big heal cd, it is basically an instant battle rezz which no other Tank has, it is OP at the level of the old argent defender, which was nerfed. And if it is balanced it will lead to similar problems as the Vengeance DH has, being an incredibly squishy tank. It will be either op has fuck or balanced by making the tinker too squishy. You have to admit at this point, that your nerd rp fantasies are bullshit for an actual game.

Or you can simply have what Shaman had in earlier iterations of WoW where they placed their totem configuration in one ability, and could instantly drop 4 totems. Nothing stops Blizzard from giving Turret-based Tinkers an ability that allows them to place their turrets in a desired configuration with one button press. While your turrets are active, you should also be attacking, using abilities, buffing your turrets, and collecting scrap from your destroyed/expired devices.

These were not all dps pets though. This sounds horrible as well, as it is basically equal to just applying multiple buffs in one cd. And again, the gameplay won't work, because it is all about ramping up an inferior equivalent to dots. And, seriously? Collecting scraps? Like, you have to personally collect scraps from your destroyed devices? Do you even want to have a class or do you just want something which suffices as a skin for rp servers? These are horrible ideas which would make an obnoxious class which always will be either op or the worst tank in the game.

[Teriz]

Not, it simply is impossible to balance. They can easily avoid deadly abilities and have basically 2 hp bars, which is just op as fuck. It isn't a big heal cd, it is basically an instant battle rezz which no other Tank has, it is OP at the level of the old argent defender, which was nerfed. And if it is balanced it will lead to similar problems as the Vengeance DH has, being an incredibly squishy tank. It will be either op has fuck or balanced by making the tinker too squishy. You have to admit at this point, that your nerd rp fantasies are bullshit for an actual game.

If you're tanking a raid or a dungeon, how can you "easily avoid" deadly abilities? You're hung up on the 2 HP bars also. What if the Tinker in mech form actually has less HP than other tanks to make up for the fact that it can escape in pilot form? Ever think about that while you're harping on something being "impossible to balance"?

Also how is the additional mech any different than Lay on Hands?

These were not all dps pets though. This sounds horrible as well,

To you, anything Tinker related sounds "horrible".

as it is basically equal to just applying multiple buffs in one cd.

You mean like Shaman in WotLK and Cataclysm?

And again, the gameplay won't work, because it is all about ramping up an inferior equivalent to dots. And, seriously? Collecting scraps? Like, you have to personally collect scraps from your destroyed devices? Do you even want to have a class or do you just want something which suffices as a skin for rp servers? These are horrible ideas which would make an obnoxious class which always will be either op or the worst tank in the game.

Demon Hunters and Monks collect soul fragments and healing spheres from the ground. What's wrong with Tinkers doing it? Oh yeah, it's because Tinkers are doing it.....

[arkanon]

My "logic" is based on breaking down various specs and ignoring various aspects of their abilities, sure.

Just had to tidy that up for you. Much more accurate now.

[qwerty123456]

Just had to tidy that up for you. Much more accurate now.

Rofl so true.

[Teriz]

Just had to tidy that up for you. Much more accurate now.

If you say so.

[Shiza]

If you're tanking a raid or a dungeon, how can you "easily avoid" deadly abilities? You're hung up on the 2 HP bars also. What if the Tinker in mech form actually has less HP than other tanks to make up for the fact that it can escape in pilot form? Ever think about that while you're harping on something being "impossible to balance"?

Also how is the additional mech any different than Lay on Hands?

Lay on Hands is a proactive ability which you have to use before the target or you dies. What you propose is more similar to the argent defender, which just healed you up when you died passively, which was a horribly ability. And your proposal to give them less hp than other tanks is just as horrible and impossible to balance either. Either they have a strong enough active mitigation that their smaller hp pool won't matter or they have the same problem as demon hunters, in that they are by far too squishy and the bottom of the line of all tanks. So in the end, with your idea there simply can't be a winner. You are so obsessed with your rp shit nobody cares about, that you have no clue what actually works in the actual game.

To you, anything Tinker related sounds "horrible".

I explained already why turrets won't work. Its not my problem that you seemingly care more about your rp than what makes a functional class.

You mean like Shaman in WotLK and Cataclysm?

We are not in wotlk or cataclysm anymore though and the gcd change is a thing.

Demon Hunters and Monks collect soul fragments and healing spheres from the ground. What's wrong with Tinkers doing it? Oh yeah, it's because Tinkers are doing it.....

Because scraps are not some energy balls which fly to you and the soul fragments land on the ground close to you. having to run all the time to your broken bots will just make the class stationary as fuck. I mean, again, have you ever done content or at least read up how content works? Your ideas are all rp shit which are bad for the gameplay of the class and Blizzard shouldn't design classes on rp shit but around what works, with some nice aesthetics around the gameplay concepts. If you want to rp, then go get a mech mount and yiff a Vulpera.

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Just had to tidy that up for you. Much more accurate now.

His logic is based on his fanfiction of getting a class tailored to him and him alone that is so overpowered that as a bottom end lfr hero he will be magically be able to do mythic raids.

[Laughingjack]

Which is what a Tinker would have to do in order to survive getting focused fired. And while the enemy team is busy trying to get the Tinker out of its mech, the Tinker's partner is attacking them.



If you could one-shot the Tinker out of their armor, sure. But that shouldn't be the case. The Tinker should have HP associated with the mech, cool downs, utility, and restoration abilities.

Even a tank class in pvp can not have that level of survival...

[Teriz]

Lay on Hands is a proactive ability which you have to use before the target or you dies. What you propose is more similar to the argent defender, which just healed you up when you died passively, which was a horribly ability.

Again, losing the mech doesn't equal death. It's more a critical situation, sort of like having low health. You don't want to be in pilot mode while you're tanking a raid.

And your proposal to give them less hp than other tanks is just as horrible and impossible to balance either. Either they have a strong enough active mitigation that their smaller hp pool won't matter or they have the same problem as demon hunters, in that they are by far too squishy and the bottom of the line of all tanks. So in the end, with your idea there simply can't be a winner. You are so obsessed with your rp shit nobody cares about, that you have no clue what actually works in the actual game.

Considering that they're an armored vehicle, they should be more sturdy than a half naked elf who turns into a half naked demon. In other words, a Tinker in armored form should be just as sturdy as a Warrior or Paladin. A Tinker who has lost their mech is very squishy, but should still be able to hold threat, and have some form of mitigation to allow it to survive long enough to get their mech back, but losing the mech should be punishing enough that a Tinker never wants to get to that point and will use all of their skills to avoid it. It's simply a new way to tank. Don't worry, I know folks around here view anything "new" as either "OP" or unworkable.

I explained already why turrets won't work. Its not my problem that you seemingly care more about your rp than what makes a functional class.

You didn't explain anything. You pretty much pouted and put your fingers in your ears and said it won't work, completely ignoring the fact that what you deem as "unworkable" has already been done.

We are not in wotlk or cataclysm anymore though and the gcd change is a thing.

And instead in BFA Shaman have the talent "Totem Mastery" which instantly drops 4 totems at their location.

Because scraps are not some energy balls which fly to you and the soul fragments land on the ground close to you. having to run all the time to your broken bots will just make the class stationary as fuck.

Gift of the Ox and Afterlife Healing Spheres don't fly to you either. However, if that's such a big issue for you, the Tinker could simply have an ability that pulls the scrap to your location. Just call it Magnetron something or other. Bang, problem solved.

I'm sure you'll come up with some other silly reason to say none of this works though, so I'll be waiting.

[Trazzle]

Have you ever been in a PvP environment against a BDK or guardian Druid? They can take a shit ton of punishment.

[Teriz]

Even a tank class in pvp can not have that level of survival...

So you're saying EVERY TIME in PvP if any class gets focus fired on, they ALWAYS die?

[Laughingjack]

So you're saying EVERY TIME in PvP if any class gets focus fired on, they ALWAYS die?

Yes is there a scenario beyond unrated where the gear can be drastically different where this doesn't happen?