Unpopular opinion: 10 man raids should make a return in Shadowlands.

[Zyky]

no, guilds will always cut healers first even if you try to tune fights tightly to require X number. If you design a fight in such a way that Method/Limit NEEDS to use 3 healers everyone else needs 4 or 5. Skill differences are to big to handle that.

I again point you to the insanity that was the world first 10m Garrosh kill being solo healed. Something that was thought to be impossible at the time.
The solution to 'more dps' is always to cut healers and make dps play better at avoiding damage.

Or you literally make the encounters require x healers and punishes you for using less. Not an uncommon concept as they've done it several times since the beginning of the game with requiring a set number of ranged so melee don't get targeted with mechanics they shouldn't have to deal with.

[Zka]

I love small group pve formats. However small raids have a serious tuning problem regarding raid cooldowns. This was clearly shown in Cata. Blizz utterly and pathetically failed to tune 10 and 25 raid sizes to similar difficulty. They just pinned the top difficulty to 20 man and everything else went flex. Problem solved.

[kaminaris]

what a joke, so your 10 man raid team requires 50% more bench, while 20 man raid has 10% more bench? dogshit comparison again.

10 man raid teams with 12 ppl will feel the same roster issues that a 20 man roster with 24 ppl feel.

keep ignoring the fact that 10 man raids are nothing but half of a 20 man raid team.

Flex is not even a question, youd be stupid to think flex would be a viable option, when you can never make competitive raid with FLEX options, not before, not now, not ever.

Think again, there is no "bench" in flex 10-20. You won't even have to keep excessive amount of players.
It's not a "fact" (stop calling utterly false statements facts lol) that 10 is half of 20 man raid team. 10 man is raid team on it's own with option to have additional players.
It's not mathematical problem, it's social problem and 20 man is just not social environment.

You would be stupid to think flex is not viable option since blizzard already has to design fight for 10-30 flex raid size.

Actually there are way more competitive guilds now than there ever was, go look for your own data. HERP DERP.

if blizzard can't balance 10vs20, then you have no argument, he is right. It CANNOT BE BALANCED, it never was. never will. Its not like you can jump in blizzard and pilot their raid team where everything is balanced for 10v20, you have no proof it can be balanced, while there is plenty of proof why it didnt work in the past.

I have every proof, all fights are already balanced for 10-30 man. There is zero reason to think otherwise, it's just delusion.

Can heroic be done with 10 players? Yes, 15 players? yes, 20? yes, 25? yes 11,13,17,19,21,22,26,29,30 FUCKING YES.
So what is the difference with mythic? Couple of additional mechanics that also CAN be tuned around smaller groups.
Spread mechanic? Make circles bigger with smaller group size.
Kicking a ball? Make debuff last slightly shorter to allow for 6 people to handle it.
Every damn mechanic can be adjusted to raid size.

Blizzard shouldn't care only about world first race.

[Gorsameth]

Think again, there is no "bench" in flex 10-20. You won't even have to keep excessive amount of players.
It's not a "fact" (stop calling utterly false statements facts lol) that 10 is half of 20 man raid team. 10 man is raid team on it's own with option to have additional players.
It's not mathematical problem, it's social problem and 20 man is just not social environment.

You would be stupid to think flex is not viable option since blizzard already has to design fight for 10-30 flex raid size.





I have every proof, all fights are already balanced for 10-30 man. There is zero reason to think otherwise, it's just delusion.

Can heroic be done with 10 players? Yes, 15 players? yes, 20? yes, 25? yes 11,13,17,19,21,22,26,29,30 FUCKING YES.
So what is the difference with mythic? Couple of additional mechanics that also CAN be tuned around smaller groups.
Spread mechanic? Make circles bigger with smaller group size.
Kicking a ball? Make debuff last slightly shorter to allow for 6 people to handle it.
Every damn mechanic can be adjusted to raid size.

Blizzard shouldn't care only about world first race.

Balance is not a binary option. Its not yes or no. Fixed size fights can be tuned better then flex because there are not 20 different size differences.
If I remember right from the days of 10/25 heroic sizes the difficulty in 10m tended to be all over the place compared to 25.

[Lodreh]

I would rather have dungeon group size changes from 5 to 6. 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 4 DPS. Shorten the DPS queues and only change should be slightly increased mob health.

[Onikaroshi]

Let's assume that your numbers are accurate and that there aren't any other variables in play (split runs, alt guids, double class runs, etc). Rounding up in your favour, that would mean that about 7.1% of wow's playerbase is active in heroic raiding and partial (3 boss) mythic raiding.

Honestly? I think they'd gain much more than they'd lose, if they stopped throwing resources towards a feature that barely anyone uses.

RFL, ain't that a can of worms. Technically it's raiding, yes. Practically? It's a clusterfuck chore that I doubt (yes, yes, gut feeling here) anyone actually enjoys. I also have the feeling that LFR was only introduced to justify pumping resources into raid development.

The conversation might have gone something like this: "Guys, you're wasting too much time and resources on a feature too few people do. Cut it out, now." - "Okay guys, let's copy/paste the raid, remove everything that makes the raid remotely interesting so a blind raccoon could complete it and show the new participation numbers." "wow, 24% participation, up from 2%! Okay, keep it!"

Last time they gave numbers mmo champ looked at raid participation, over 70% did lfr to some extent, over 30% did normal, 20% did heroic, and something like 5% did mythic.

And if you believe no one is raiding for fun, I have a really nice bridge to sell you

[Gorsameth]

I would rather have dungeon group size changes from 5 to 6. 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 4 DPS. Shorten the DPS queues and only change should be slightly increased mob health.

Changing party size from 5 to 6 would probably have massive consequences at the back-end in the code.

[nocturnus]

Last time they gave numbers mmo champ looked at raid participation, over 70% did lfr to some extent, over 30% did normal, 20% did heroic, and something like 5% did mythic.

And if you believe no one is raiding for fun, I have a really nice bridge to sell you

First of all, I'm basing my rough estimation on the numbers that were provided by the person I replied to. These numbers are pretty much in line with what we're used to; maybe even a bit higher, considering that mythic participation has always been between 3% and 5%.

Secondly, I'm quite sure there are people that enjoy LFR. There are also people that love the taste of shit or people that regurgitate in eachother's mouth for sexual arousal.

Lastly, basing participation in term of percentages on those metrics alone, skewes perception of reality, as we've seen in the past, because you're not accounting for the aforementioned variables and for the number of times said raids were actually cleared.

No, I really don't think that many people actively raid and considering the official numbers we kept receiving year in, year out (until Blizzard stopped doing that), I think I'm pretty close to the truth here.

But feel free to disagree.

[Cracked]

I would 100% want that, BUT 10 man raids would have to be DISTINCT from the normal 20 man raids. Like it was in TBC, that worked imo.

[Onikaroshi]

First of all, I'm basing my rough estimation on the numbers that were provided by the person I replied to. These numbers are pretty much in line with what we're used to; maybe even a bit higher, considering that mythic participation has always been between 3% and 5%.

Secondly, I'm quite sure there are people that enjoy LFR. There are also people that love the taste of shit or people that regurgitate in eachother's mouth for sexual arousal.

Lastly, basing participation in term of percentages on those metrics alone, skewes perception of reality, as we've seen in the past, because you're not accounting for the aforementioned variables and for the number of times said raids were actually cleared.

No, I really don't think that many people actively raid and considering the official numbers we kept receiving year in, year out (until Blizzard stopped doing that), I think I'm pretty close to the truth here.

But feel free to disagree.

Everything individually in the game has low participation numbers at some point. Rated PvP is very low, but it doesn't cost much extra to maintain, much like Mythic, so there's no point in deleting it because you want to. Let people have what they enjoy. WoW is the only game out there with raiding as good as it is.

[Elbob]

I'm really surprised at how this thread constantly brings up how some fights were "near impossible" on 10 man or atleast extremely difficult, but no one has mentioned in the other direction how much of a joke most other fights were for 10 man grps. Every end tier boss I remember doing was a fraction of the difficulty on 10 man compared to 25. I remember needing to squeeze in a H Alakir kill our first week we just used 10 people after our normal raid hours were done to get the loot. Now the counter argument will be "you were just trimming the fat and brought in the best of the 25 man grp."

While with that particular boss you might be right I also played with a 2 day 10 man exclusive guild in cata. These players were flat out worse than my 25m guild but when we hit H Rag in firelands we killed it in 30% of the pulls compared to the 25man guild. Deathwing I honestly cant remember but that fight was disappointing on both raid sizes. Going onto MoP 10 man was also a push over on most fights by comparison because any raid dmg mechanic could solo'd by a disc priest with spirit shell (stacking abosrbs that only needed to be cast on 2 grps compared to 5). Lei Shen was an amazing fight on 25h but the first time I did it on 10h I was disappointed with how easy it was. Little things like 2-3 orb catches per corner meant the scramble to coordinate who went where... was a joke.

This brings me to my next point, fight responsibilities. The side of this whole thing that says 10 man was harder than 25 man often brings up this point about how responsibilities were super individualized so if anyone didn't do their job the pull was a wipe compared to 25 man. Now this is a mixed bag, while its true that if an interrupt got whiffed on 10 man it was much less likely to have a back up for it other mechanics such as adds were often a joke and would fall over as soon as a dps looked at them. In 25 man flexible teams of people could be assigned to roles to get them done but in 10 man to avoid mandatory classes that were best at said mechanic, things that were a strict dps window in 25man were suddenly a HUGE joke on 10 man if you had the right class for it. But wait that means this 1 player dealing with the mechanic has more responsibility right? So its harder right? Yes, he has the sole responsibility of dealing with the mechanic but because the balance team can't assume you have an optimal class for every job. So that add doesn't have 40-50% of the hp it does on 25man instead it had 20-30%.

So whats left. Oh right the balancing issues that occur between raid sizes. Going with this tier since its most fresh in everyone's mind lets talk about how raid size can greatly impact the fights and possible changes that would need to be made around it in 10 man.
Wrathion:
Problems: Scale phase - (1)is it fair to force 30% of your raid to run scales compared to 12%? Probably not especially since it cant be expected you have 3+ mobile classes to proc the debuff on the spires quickly. (2) Spire HP too high to kill in time.
Solutions: 2 Scales instead of 3 and/or longer lasting debuff to make sure slower classes can still safely reach all the spires in time. Nerf spire HP to the ground to make sure an average 10 man grp can still kill them.
Outcomes: There would be a gross QoL difference in the raids that had the mobile classes to handle scales compared to those who didn't. Grps with slower scale runners would be hard pressed to activate and kill all the spires in time. As I explained above the HP of the spires would have to be reduced an insane amount because not only do you have to commit a larger % of your raid to running scales(probably for longer as well) but since blizzard cant assume you have a lock/moonkin/dh in your grp they need to obliterate the hp pool of the spires to ~25% that of 20man. This means many signature aoe spells like Anima of death and focusing iris completely 1 shot the spires which kinda beats the point and trivializes the whole phase.

Skitra:
Problem: CC'ing the wall of adds.
Solutions: Wall is killable faster and/or moves slower and/or has natural holes in it for the raid to move through.
Outcomes: Either the mechanic is trivial because it can be effectively ignored until its killed or the fight is insanely hard for 10 man grps that need to coordinate movements through short stuns/cc's because only a 'unlucky' grp of the raid could interact with the wall.

Maut: Nothing really here probably just need to scale # of pools dropping.

Xanesh:
Problem: Soccer phase. Interrupts and soccer debuff.
Solutions: Add cast times significantly lengthened, probably doubled to 11-12s. Debuff from playing soccer needs to be reduced cause some early kills required a 4th grp and obviously 10 man doesnt have 12 people.
Outcomes: kinda beats the point of 'everyone can only do this once' when grps can go multiple times. Interrupts get sooo trivial when they get this long. Suddenly having a grp with a reasonable number of melee trivializes the whole mechanic. Or a shaman could solo kick and add.... zzzzz have you seen the interrupt plans for guilds progressing this? it can be extremely complicated.

(gonna start getting lazy but i hope you see my point that most fights have significant balance adjustments needed)
Vexiona: add hp trivialized and the mythic add pulling in 3 people is probably too much. Tank damage would probably need to be reduced due to it being very hard to 3 tank in 10 man or you just pray for TD procs to solo entire add grps (cause it damn near would)

HM:no real issues just add hp super nerfed(darters in particular) again trivializing the mechanic for the grps with good classes like destro warlocks and/or blood dks to grp them better.

Ra'den: The fight already requires 10 people (min) to do the mechanics at once. So you would need to drop the number of times the mechanics "bounce" or suffer from impossible situations where some one has collapsing void but needs to deal with vita/nightmare mechanics at the same time. BUT reducing the number of bounces also shortens the time spent dealing with the mechanic which quickly turns the fight into 90% patchwerk because the by time the next orbs come. Nobody has debuffs anymore.

Shad: feeding the dog would have to change either letting people feed multiple times or needing to feed him less often. Being able to feed him multiple times per person beats the point of the "you can only do this once" mechanic and doing it less often just lets you pick and choose the better classes to feed, again causing huge disparities in good comps vs bad. Another problem being able to deal with the "root" when targeted by an add. Would this fight just feel impossible for comps without paladins/warlocks to help immobile classes that can't break the 99% slow? Or would you just make the aoe do way less dmg so the raid can just face tank it and heal through it?

Dres: No real problems but some tentacles would get trivial amounts of hp. Maws would die to melee because getting mc'd same reason as every add listed above.

Ilgy: This fight is all about space management and when you cut the raid in half IT KINDA TRIVIALIZES IT. MCs would be 1-2 at a time but with more space than you know what to do with kiting would be a joke. Solution to make the circles bigger suddenly makes the organ phase a fucking nightmare if you have more than 2 melee so you cant really expand those more than ~25%(guess).

Carapace: Adds would have to be effectively 1shottable. TD procs from tanks would hilariously cheese the fight. Not having a warlock for gateway or windrush/roars in p3 make that phase a nightmare. Solutions including making the bad zone grow slower to let people run out of it in time or have it do way less dmg which complicated breaking the shield on people. Unleashed nightmare rings would need to be greatly expanded cause you know space management is really important in p3 . Lots of 25 man guilds needed to make fucking charts for this to plan people's positioning.

N'zoth: this entire fight would pretty much need to be redesigned on mythic. Paranoia circles would need to be expanded to serve the same purpose on mythic. Kicks would have to be lessened in both phases. Sanity drain values adjusted, neck sanity returns changed since they are grp wide on mythic. Extra phase reworked because less people to use necks. P2 adds need to drain even less sanity per player due to lack of immunities. Evoke anguish pools on mythic trivialized or need to expand much faster to serve same purpose.

Yep, looks like some easy balancing between 10 and 20m mythic. I'm sure we could make them both just as difficult to warrant dropping the same gear /s

[tehdef]

Not unpopular, also needed.
I can't with the 25man hardmode but kicking 5 of them in order to make the same shitshow but with less people.
10man was the right difficulty for the skilled players.

Patently false. It is not possible for the developers to properly balance the 10-man raid environment due to the number of classes, the amount of people playing, and their nature of not excluding people because of their chosen class or spec.

[Levogames]

Patently false. It is not possible for the developers to properly balance the 10-man raid environment due to the number of classes, the amount of people playing, and their nature of not excluding people because of their chosen class or spec.

They made 20M bc everybody knows that 10man was the perfect challenge for skilled players while 25man is the modality that you use when 10man raids doesn't like you and there, 5 players can easily carry the other 20.

They fucked up with the real challenge in order to make the guilds less exclusive.

[Clozer]

Patently false. It is not possible for the developers to properly balance the 10-man raid environment due to the number of classes, the amount of people playing, and their nature of not excluding people because of their chosen class or spec.

Yes, exactly this works well in 20m tho. Just take a look at WF Ny'alotha. More than half the specs this game has to offer was not represented. But hey, it's so much better in 20m. Man imagine you would bench a Surv Hunter or feral druid in a 20m raid. Ha, never happened.

[Onikaroshi]

I'm really surprised at how this thread constantly brings up how some fights were "near impossible" on 10 man or atleast extremely difficult, but no one has mentioned in the other direction how much of a joke most other fights were for 10 man grps. Every end tier boss I remember doing was a fraction of the difficulty on 10 man compared to 25. I remember needing to squeeze in a H Alakir kill our first week we just used 10 people after our normal raid hours were done to get the loot. Now the counter argument will be "you were just trimming the fat and brought in the best of the 25 man grp."

While with that particular boss you might be right I also played with a 2 day 10 man exclusive guild in cata. These players were flat out worse than my 25m guild but when we hit H Rag in firelands we killed it in 30% of the pulls compared to the 25man guild. Deathwing I honestly cant remember but that fight was disappointing on both raid sizes. Going onto MoP 10 man was also a push over on most fights by comparison because any raid dmg mechanic could solo'd by a disc priest with spirit shell (stacking abosrbs that only needed to be cast on 2 grps compared to 5). Lei Shen was an amazing fight on 25h but the first time I did it on 10h I was disappointed with how easy it was. Little things like 2-3 orb catches per corner meant the scramble to coordinate who went where... was a joke.

This brings me to my next point, fight responsibilities. The side of this whole thing that says 10 man was harder than 25 man often brings up this point about how responsibilities were super individualized so if anyone didn't do their job the pull was a wipe compared to 25 man. Now this is a mixed bag, while its true that if an interrupt got whiffed on 10 man it was much less likely to have a back up for it other mechanics such as adds were often a joke and would fall over as soon as a dps looked at them. In 25 man flexible teams of people could be assigned to roles to get them done but in 10 man to avoid mandatory classes that were best at said mechanic, things that were a strict dps window in 25man were suddenly a HUGE joke on 10 man if you had the right class for it. But wait that means this 1 player dealing with the mechanic has more responsibility right? So its harder right? Yes, he has the sole responsibility of dealing with the mechanic but because the balance team can't assume you have an optimal class for every job. So that add doesn't have 40-50% of the hp it does on 25man instead it had 20-30%.

So whats left. Oh right the balancing issues that occur between raid sizes. Going with this tier since its most fresh in everyone's mind lets talk about how raid size can greatly impact the fights and possible changes that would need to be made around it in 10 man.
Wrathion:
Problems: Scale phase - (1)is it fair to force 30% of your raid to run scales compared to 12%? Probably not especially since it cant be expected you have 3+ mobile classes to proc the debuff on the spires quickly. (2) Spire HP too high to kill in time.
Solutions: 2 Scales instead of 3 and/or longer lasting debuff to make sure slower classes can still safely reach all the spires in time. Nerf spire HP to the ground to make sure an average 10 man grp can still kill them.
Outcomes: There would be a gross QoL difference in the raids that had the mobile classes to handle scales compared to those who didn't. Grps with slower scale runners would be hard pressed to activate and kill all the spires in time. As I explained above the HP of the spires would have to be reduced an insane amount because not only do you have to commit a larger % of your raid to running scales(probably for longer as well) but since blizzard cant assume you have a lock/moonkin/dh in your grp they need to obliterate the hp pool of the spires to ~25% that of 20man. This means many signature aoe spells like Anima of death and focusing iris completely 1 shot the spires which kinda beats the point and trivializes the whole phase.

Skitra:
Problem: CC'ing the wall of adds.
Solutions: Wall is killable faster and/or moves slower and/or has natural holes in it for the raid to move through.
Outcomes: Either the mechanic is trivial because it can be effectively ignored until its killed or the fight is insanely hard for 10 man grps that need to coordinate movements through short stuns/cc's because only a 'unlucky' grp of the raid could interact with the wall.

Maut: Nothing really here probably just need to scale # of pools dropping.

Xanesh:
Problem: Soccer phase. Interrupts and soccer debuff.
Solutions: Add cast times significantly lengthened, probably doubled to 11-12s. Debuff from playing soccer needs to be reduced cause some early kills required a 4th grp and obviously 10 man doesnt have 12 people.
Outcomes: kinda beats the point of 'everyone can only do this once' when grps can go multiple times. Interrupts get sooo trivial when they get this long. Suddenly having a grp with a reasonable number of melee trivializes the whole mechanic. Or a shaman could solo kick and add.... zzzzz have you seen the interrupt plans for guilds progressing this? it can be extremely complicated.

(gonna start getting lazy but i hope you see my point that most fights have significant balance adjustments needed)
Vexiona: add hp trivialized and the mythic add pulling in 3 people is probably too much. Tank damage would probably need to be reduced due to it being very hard to 3 tank in 10 man or you just pray for TD procs to solo entire add grps (cause it damn near would)

HM:no real issues just add hp super nerfed(darters in particular) again trivializing the mechanic for the grps with good classes like destro warlocks and/or blood dks to grp them better.

Ra'den: The fight already requires 10 people (min) to do the mechanics at once. So you would need to drop the number of times the mechanics "bounce" or suffer from impossible situations where some one has collapsing void but needs to deal with vita/nightmare mechanics at the same time. BUT reducing the number of bounces also shortens the time spent dealing with the mechanic which quickly turns the fight into 90% patchwerk because the by time the next orbs come. Nobody has debuffs anymore.

Shad: feeding the dog would have to change either letting people feed multiple times or needing to feed him less often. Being able to feed him multiple times per person beats the point of the "you can only do this once" mechanic and doing it less often just lets you pick and choose the better classes to feed, again causing huge disparities in good comps vs bad. Another problem being able to deal with the "root" when targeted by an add. Would this fight just feel impossible for comps without paladins/warlocks to help immobile classes that can't break the 99% slow? Or would you just make the aoe do way less dmg so the raid can just face tank it and heal through it?

Dres: No real problems but some tentacles would get trivial amounts of hp. Maws would die to melee because getting mc'd same reason as every add listed above.

Ilgy: This fight is all about space management and when you cut the raid in half IT KINDA TRIVIALIZES IT. MCs would be 1-2 at a time but with more space than you know what to do with kiting would be a joke. Solution to make the circles bigger suddenly makes the organ phase a fucking nightmare if you have more than 2 melee so you cant really expand those more than ~25%(guess).

Carapace: Adds would have to be effectively 1shottable. TD procs from tanks would hilariously cheese the fight. Not having a warlock for gateway or windrush/roars in p3 make that phase a nightmare. Solutions including making the bad zone grow slower to let people run out of it in time or have it do way less dmg which complicated breaking the shield on people. Unleashed nightmare rings would need to be greatly expanded cause you know space management is really important in p3 . Lots of 25 man guilds needed to make fucking charts for this to plan people's positioning.

N'zoth: this entire fight would pretty much need to be redesigned on mythic. Paranoia circles would need to be expanded to serve the same purpose on mythic. Kicks would have to be lessened in both phases. Sanity drain values adjusted, neck sanity returns changed since they are grp wide on mythic. Extra phase reworked because less people to use necks. P2 adds need to drain even less sanity per player due to lack of immunities. Evoke anguish pools on mythic trivialized or need to expand much faster to serve same purpose.

Yep, looks like some easy balancing between 10 and 20m mythic. I'm sure we could make them both just as difficult to warrant dropping the same gear /s

Garrosh was so tightly tuned that to have the dps paragon had to one heal. (and it was a holy priest, not a disc)

And of course nya doesn't fit with 10 man really, it wasn't designed with it in mind, if you design with 10 man in mind it works out much better.

Though I think the better compromise is just to drop from 20 to 15 and have every fight require 3 tanks and 3 heals.

[Relapses]

Though I think the better compromise is just to drop from 20 to 15 and have every fight require 3 tanks and 3 heals.

This is not a solution. It would effectively dismantle guilds with larger rosters while also severely fragmenting the current raid scene. All so that after 6 months after the dust settles and guilds have recovered we see participation rates in Mythic rise maybe a single percentage point? Not worth it. If Mythic participation rates were a legitimate problem (they're not), there are ways to add incentive to the current system which do not involve a drastic disturbance to the current Mythic community.

[Onikaroshi]

This is not a solution. It would effectively dismantle guilds with larger rosters while also severely fragmenting the current raid scene. All so that after 6 months after the dust settles and guilds have recovered we see participation rates in Mythic rise maybe a single percentage point? Not worth it. If Mythic participation rates were a legitimate problem (they're not), there are ways to add incentive to the current system which do not involve a drastic disturbance to the current Mythic community.

I just want my preferred raiding back, I hate 20 man mythic with a passion.

[nocturnus]

Everything individually in the game has low participation numbers at some point. Rated PvP is very low, but it doesn't cost much extra to maintain, much like Mythic, so there's no point in deleting it because you want to. Let people have what they enjoy. WoW is the only game out there with raiding as good as it is.

I don't want mythic raids deleted. I just don't believe it "doesn't cost much extra". I mean, I know raid development costs a ton of resources, but I can't find the article explaining it so what I say is little more than anecdotal evidence.

I'm all for letting people have what they enjoy. What I'm against is funneling a ton of resources into a feature that a very small percentage of the community engages in at the cost of other, more popular features.

[Qstall]

shiet no. there was a phase when 10man had the same rewards as 25man. It was ridiculous. 10 boi raids weren't even admitting they were favored. "bUt We OnLy HaVe OnE bAtTlE rEzZ", what a shiet show

however, if you give them loot that is objectively inferior by a lot , I guess why not

[Onikaroshi]

I don't want mythic raids deleted. I just don't believe it "doesn't cost much extra". I mean, I know raid development costs a ton of resources, but I can't find the article explaining it so what I say is little more than anecdotal evidence.

I'm all for letting people have what they enjoy. What I'm against is funneling a ton of resources into a feature that a very small percentage of the community engages in at the cost of other, more popular features.

Blizzard themselves have stated Mythic doesn't cost much more to add. I forget exactly what they said but they develop the raid around either Normal or Heroic and it is very little effort to add or remove for the rest.

And since no one tracks LFR/Normal progress anymore and we don't know full numbers, we don't know how many people raid NOW, but it's most likely enough for them to continue or they wouldn't have such large raids.