Taking the pulse of the community

[Coconut]

So, I had a very unpleasant experience in game about an hour ago.

I've been primarily a casual player and a mount collector for a long time, but I managed to gear up to 470ish with the help of my high end friends, and I just recently started doing Mythic Jaina runs for the 2x chance at the water elemental.

This week I joined a group mid way, and on the first pull a party member got himself instantly frozen. I was the only one trying to unfreeze him as everyone was clumping on top of the boss instead of having the usual melee/ranged groups (neither strategy was assigned at the start, people simply decided to stand in melee and the ones who were left had to follow). Due to the clumping, the middle of the ship quickly filled up with bombs, and people were freezing themselves left and right, so we wiped in the first phase. Lots of things going wrong there.

The tank leader immediately kicked the one paladin who was frozen first and I made the mistake of standing up for him, because to the best of my knowledge there had been no pull timer, therefore missing out the few seconds until freeze was forgivable (and there were a lot of other problems on top of that). Because I said that, the leader instantly kicked me as well - apparently (he didn't say), he was using a DBM pull timer, only visible to those using the addon. I haven't been using DBM or many other addons since WoD, and I could play at an acceptable level without it (including mage tower in Legion). To be fair, I had completely forgotten it existed. Certainly it wouldn't have been a problem at Jaina, since the biggest challenge was following the marked tank, and the broadsides have visual cues in the standard UI.

To me, getting kicked (and losing my chance at the mount this week) because I tried to stand up for a fellow party member felt exceedingly cancerous. Maybe it affected me more than it would others because I don't usually descend in the septic tank that is pugging difficult content (or multi-player difficult content in general), so I want to know what other posters think. Is this normal behavior? Do you think the party leader was in the right? Or is this part of the cancer that is making wow fail as a social game? (I should probably mention that I was in no way disrespectful or pushy when defending the frozen party member, I merely pointed something out in a factual way - it was a very low bar for "questioning his decision").

[munkeyinorbit]

So, I had a very unpleasant experience in game about an hour ago.

I've been primarily a casual player and a mount collector for a long time, but I managed to gear up to 470ish with the help of my high end friends, and I just recently started doing Mythic Jaina runs for the 2x chance at the water elemental.

This week I joined a group mid way, and on the first pull a party member got himself instantly frozen. I was the only one trying to unfreeze him as everyone was clumping on top of the boss instead of having the usual melee/ranged groups (neither strategy was assigned at the start, people simply decided to stand in melee and the ones who were left had to follow). Due to the clumping, the middle of the ship quickly filled up with bombs, and people were freezing themselves left and right, so we wiped in the first phase. Lots of things going wrong there.

The tank leader immediately kicked the one paladin who was frozen first and I made the mistake of standing up for him, because to the best of my knowledge there had been no pull timer, therefore missing out the few seconds until freeze was forgivable (and there were a lot of other problems on top of that). Because I said that, the leader instantly kicked me as well - apparently (he didn't say), he was using a DBM pull timer, only visible to those using the addon. I haven't been using DBM or many other addons since WoD, and I could play at an acceptable level without it (including mage tower in Legion). To be fair, I had completely forgotten it existed. Certainly it wouldn't have been a problem at Jaina, since the biggest challenge was following the marked tank, and the broadsides have visual cues in the standard UI.

To me, getting kicked (and losing my chance at the mount this week) because I tried to stand up for a fellow party member felt exceedingly cancerous. Maybe it affected me more than it would others because I don't usually descend in the septic tank that is pugging difficult content (or multi-player difficult content in general), so I want to know what other posters think. Is this normal behavior? Do you think the party leader was in the right? Or is this part of the cancer that is making wow fail as a social game? (I should probably mention that I was in no way disrespectful or pushy when defending the frozen party member, I merely pointed something out in a factual way - it was a very low bar for "questioning his decision").

You were in the wrong. If you're not prepared to use the bare minimum of tools then you shouldn't pug. Let this be a teachable moment for you.

[Coconut]

You were in the wrong. If you're not prepared to use the bare minimum of tools then you shouldn't pug. Let this be a teachable moment for you.

So you are part of the problem. I killed Jaina Mythic before, did plenty of other difficult content without DBM. I did not miss the pull because I was paying attention anyway. I fail to see how this was a problem of me "not using minimum tools" (nor do I plan to use them just because someone can't do a normal pull timer).

[MeTaL GuArD]

Generally, from what I'm usually seeing, people in pug runs of just about anything are there to get things quickly done and move on to whatever else they have on their itinerary, which results in leads being dicks with zero patience for anyone who's not perfectly following mechanics. This is even worse if said dicks are awful at the game themselves and decided to lead a pug run so that they can get carried to the reward.

So you are part of the problem. I killed Jaina Mythic before, did plenty of other difficult content without DBM. I did not miss the pull because I was paying attention anyway. I fail to see how this was a problem of me "not using minimum tools" (nor do I plan to use them just because someone can't do a normal pull timer).

People are bothered by this stance because installing DBM is literally 1 minute of work, give or take, and you're set with everything you need. Blizzard practically designs the game around this addon because everyone else is using it anyway, so vocally proclaiming "I'm not going to do it just because everyone else does!" is, at this point, spite, as well as shooting yourself in the foot and making your own life harder to prove a point.

[Coconut]

People are bothered by this stance because installing DBM is literally 1 minute of work, give or take, and you're set with everything you need. Blizzard practically designs the game around this addon because everyone else is using it anyway, so vocally proclaiming "I'm not going to do it just because everyone else does!" is, at this point, spite, as well as shooting yourself in the foot and making your own life harder to prove a point.

I stopped using DBM because my pc is on the old side and addons were affecting my FPS. Like I said, I had completely forgotten it existed as I did plenty of things without it. I don't see how it was a factor for this encounter apart for the aforementioned pull timer (which other groups can make visible to everyone). I think the leader was in the wrong to assume DBM would affect results in the encounter, regardless of what QoL it might bring.

[Baconeggcheese]

To me, getting kicked (and losing my chance at the mount this week) because I tried to stand up for a fellow party member felt exceedingly cancerous.

If I had to hazard a guess, you didn't get kicked for standing up for the other guy, you got kicked for admitting you didn't have a boss mod installed.

[Nathasil]

If i pug, i always expect the very worst humanly possible of every other player in the group, especially the leader. This way, i am usually not disappointed and sometimes even pleasantly surprised. So what you experienced would be EXACTLY what i expected the run to go like when signing up.

I don't see a problem with it, though. This content is not meant to be pugged. If you do, you do it knowing what you get yourself into. From my PoV there is no reason for discussing it. There is absolutely no reason to change it, either. Running content that is meant to be run with people you know in a pug is usually not a pleasant experience.

If I had to hazard a guess, you didn't get kicked for standing up for the other guy, you got kicked for admitting you didn't have a boss mod installed.

If the RL is the kind of guy who kicks players for not having a boss-mod installed, he should kick himself for not knowing how to type in "/dbm ver".

[Zephire]

People are bothered by this stance because installing DBM is literally 1 minute of work, give or take, and you're set with everything you need. Blizzard practically designs the game around this addon because everyone else is using it anyway, so vocally proclaiming "I'm not going to do it just because everyone else does!" is, at this point, spite, as well as shooting yourself in the foot and making your own life harder to prove a point.

I must say that I hate DBM. It removes most of the aspects that you learn from and blinds you from thinking (generally speaking). Not using it might be worse, initially, it's way better later on, because you become a better player for it.

Also, have Blizzard said that they design things with using addons in mind? Something's tickling my mind that they said something about it but I don't remember. Anyhow, you can manage just fine without raid helping addons. The blizz raid things along with how precise most of the indicators are, the sounds played (dialog etc) before an ability, energy/resource indicating something's about to happen and just most of the visual animations help you very, very far.

The only thing lacking, are a proper pull timer but, you know what? It will be in Shadowlands, yey

So, I had a very unpleasant experience in game about an hour ago.

I've been primarily a casual player and a mount collector for a long time, but I managed to gear up to 470ish with the help of my high end friends, and I just recently started doing Mythic Jaina runs for the 2x chance at the water elemental.

This week I joined a group mid way, and on the first pull a party member got himself instantly frozen. I was the only one trying to unfreeze him as everyone was clumping on top of the boss instead of having the usual melee/ranged groups (neither strategy was assigned at the start, people simply decided to stand in melee and the ones who were left had to follow). Due to the clumping, the middle of the ship quickly filled up with bombs, and people were freezing themselves left and right, so we wiped in the first phase. Lots of things going wrong there.

The tank leader immediately kicked the one paladin who was frozen first and I made the mistake of standing up for him, because to the best of my knowledge there had been no pull timer, therefore missing out the few seconds until freeze was forgivable (and there were a lot of other problems on top of that). Because I said that, the leader instantly kicked me as well - apparently (he didn't say), he was using a DBM pull timer, only visible to those using the addon. I haven't been using DBM or many other addons since WoD, and I could play at an acceptable level without it (including mage tower in Legion). To be fair, I had completely forgotten it existed. Certainly it wouldn't have been a problem at Jaina, since the biggest challenge was following the marked tank, and the broadsides have visual cues in the standard UI.

To me, getting kicked (and losing my chance at the mount this week) because I tried to stand up for a fellow party member felt exceedingly cancerous. Maybe it affected me more than it would others because I don't usually descend in the septic tank that is pugging difficult content (or multi-player difficult content in general), so I want to know what other posters think. Is this normal behavior? Do you think the party leader was in the right? Or is this part of the cancer that is making wow fail as a social game? (I should probably mention that I was in no way disrespectful or pushy when defending the frozen party member, I merely pointed something out in a factual way - it was a very low bar for "questioning his decision").

It clearly was not that one persons fault that things didn't end well and I can understand a kick when someone does something wrong, causing a wipe after the tactics has been explained but in your case, that's just the leader putting the blame on someone.

Make your own group, preferably with a friend or two who can ease the load of being a pug leader. BoD is quite easy now, only challenge being Mecha and Jaina (depending on group). Show them how a leader should be, lead by example.

[Coconut]

If i pug, i always expect the very worst humanly possible of every other player in the group, especially the leader. This way, i am usually not disappointed and sometimes even pleasantly surprised. So what you experienced would be EXACTLY what i expected the run to go like when signing up.

I guess you have the right approach, I'm just not used to it because I usually either play alone or with friends, I don't even have to deal with guild stuff. I just think it's a shame, the game would be a much nicer place if people were just a tad bit more respectful and understanding. From the perspective of someone who doesn't regularly raid, a few learning pulls and explaining to people what to do can be nice... in this case it didn't even come to that.

[darklogrus]

If I had to hazard a guess, you didn't get kicked for standing up for the other guy, you got kicked for admitting you didn't have a boss mod installed.

I barely use DBM during progression let alone for a fight from 18 months ago..

[Trend]

So you are part of the problem. I killed Jaina Mythic before, did plenty of other difficult content without DBM. I did not miss the pull because I was paying attention anyway. I fail to see how this was a problem of me "not using minimum tools" (nor do I plan to use them just because someone can't do a normal pull timer).

So you complain about how people are difficult and in your very first follow up post you are totally dogmatic about a stupid thing. Sounds like you contribute a lot to negative interactions you have with other people.

If you told me you didn't have DBM I would kick your ass too. You want to make it into an argument about what should and should not be required but I have a much more straight forward approach. If you're too lazy or too fucking contrarian to take the 2 minutes to install a basic raid tool, I would not want you in my group ... because why would I want lazy and/or contrarian people in my group?

[Coconut]

Make your own group, preferably with a friend or two who can ease the load of being a pug leader. BoD is quite easy now, only challenge being Mecha and Jaina (depending on group). Show them how a leader should be, lead by example.

That's probably what I will do, though I was trying not to abuse my friends since they are helping me enough already and they already have this mount. I'll try to start a pug on my own next week and see how it goes... I have good experience with Rastakhan because I stood through multiple wipes with a group and got the encounter pegged, can explain it, but I don't think I can do that with Tinker if people don't want to skip him. I'll have to watch the guide some more. I think it was also a mistake to be impatient and join a group right after reset... maybe the a-holes will be done before the weekend.

With the frozen pally, I don't know, maybe he should have been paying attention, but I would have given him another shot for sure, I don't know if he knew the encounter or not... Even if people fail at something, it's still better to let them get an idea, otherwise they'll just join someone else's group next week and wipe them too (and some of them will inevitably waste your time too). I don't really know if the guy kicked me because I didn't have DBM or because I questioned his decision... I'm inclined to think it was the latter, or 50-50 at best. There are a few encounters where it pays to be prepared for a phase, but it's not really the case with Mythic Jaina - even if you can argue you need that, people still need to stack up most of the time, so they'll know where to go anyway, and DBM has little bearing on the personal mechanics you need to execute.

- - - Updated - - -

If you told me you didn't have DBM I would kick your ass too. You want to make it into an argument about what should and should not be required but I have a much more straight forward approach. If you're too lazy or too fucking contrarian to take the 2 minutes to install a basic raid tool, I would not want you in my group ... because why would I want lazy and/or contrarian people in my group?

As I said in a different comment, it is an issue with FPS on my computer and a general lack of need for it. Would be nice to know how lack of DBM impedes one on Mythic Jaina, though. I might be wrong without realizing it!

[arkanon]

I tank without dbm in easier content sometimes with the guild just to make it more.....exciting. Having two tanks without DBM is honestly bloody funny. But i wouldnt do that in higher difficulty or a pug environment, just because it puts unnecessary strain on myself and everyone else. Fucking up the taunts so bad the boss goes taunt immune can cause some pretty funny moments when chilling out with friends, but its far less funny when its a pug just trying to get the content done asap.

[Drusin]

and I made the mistake of standing up for him

Never stand up for anyone in pugs, I've never seen that go well lol.

I haven't been using DBM or many other addons since WoD

You should at least install it because DBM has a command (/DBM VER) that checks what version DBM everyone in group is using, if no DBM (or similar addon) is found then it'll report that. You may just get kicked for that.

To me, getting kicked (and losing my chance at the mount this week) because I tried to stand up for a fellow party member felt exceedingly cancerous.

Hm, seems like real life to me.

Is this normal behavior?

Yes

Do you think the party leader was in the right?

No, but it's normal.

Or is this part of the cancer that is making wow fail as a social game?

I don't personally see wow failing as a social game because I only talk in chat when I'm not busy, if I'm doing content I stfu and do the content in the manner I know other players expect it to be done. When doing content the only thing that matters is the completion of said content with as few problems as possible. But this is my own personal standing and code of conduct and not intended to be taken as how you or everyone should behave.

[Hellobolis]

sometimes there is a difference between knowing what to do, and knowing the way the raidleader wants to do it. and sometimes that includes any backtalk to the raidleader at all.

now personally if someone in the raid found out you didn't have DBM after some drama started, i would have kicked you too not because there was anything wrong with you, but because of the risk of more people leaving because of that.

the fact that bigwigs has a function called "pretend i have DBM" in it's options should tell you all you need to know about pugs. i'd just install it though to avoid this issue in the future, disable all the warings and stuff if you want as long as it shows up as you having it nobody will care.

[Nnyco]

Imagine not using a boss mod in 2020...

[Hellobolis]

I stopped using DBM because my pc is on the old side and addons were affecting my FPS. Like I said, I had completely forgotten it existed as I did plenty of things without it. I don't see how it was a factor for this encounter apart for the aforementioned pull timer (which other groups can make visible to everyone). I think the leader was in the wrong to assume DBM would affect results in the encounter, regardless of what QoL it might bring.

most people aren't that good at noticing their debuffs anymore. and honestly it can be quite tricky to not get frozen without a countdown on some of the overlaps, but i guess nowadays people just outdps all that.

[Lei]

now personally if someone in the raid found out you didn't have DBM after some drama started, i would have kicked you too not because there was anything wrong with you, but because of the risk of more people leaving because of that.

This. If you play with others, you gotta obey some rules. In wow pugs, it's at least having some sort of boss mods. Not that it matters too much, it's the courtesy. Of course if the run is smooth, noone's gonna ask in retrospect if you had dbm or not, or you play without hands or you play animal crossing on your other screen. Problems with these always come when the run isn't smooth. It's better be safe in those cases.

[ONCHEhap]

leader had an authority complex,pretty damn common sadly

[arkanon]

Imagine not using a boss mod in 2020...

i think you mean 2008.