No 2h for enhancement? It's now or never

[Oturanboa]

If you're talking about the requires a two-handed weapon on the patch notes, that's been there for a while and doesn't mean we've got 2H back.

Frankly if they can add singled-minded fury, allowing fury warriors to use DW 1H's alongside a compensating aura. Then they can do it for Enhancement, change it so 2H weapons can apply both WF and LL imbues, make a aura to counterside the maelstrom generation and finally put agility option on 2H loot tables. It's not rocket science, they've done it for other classes, yes it'll take work but can they be bothered?

Yea i was barely awake and i saw wf/flametongue change with the "requires two handed" notation on the end and gone mental.

Sorry guys, nothing to see, move along.

[Razaron]

They could just do a stat swap like intel does now.

Aye, that's exactly what I meant by putting agility option on the 2H loot tables. It's a very easy fix, yes the tuning will be a issue but they can bloody do it for others classes, then they should for enhancement.

[Super Kami Dende]

Hell even in burning crusade people still rocked 2H for some stuff.

Indeed, I used a spare Gorehowl from Kara Guild runs for shits and gigs in TBC on my Shaman.

[Unholyground]

Aye, that's exactly what I meant by putting agility option on the 2H loot tables. It's a very easy fix, yes the tuning will be a issue but they can bloody do it for others classes, then they should for enhancement.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Bobby187]

Enhancement
Windfury Weapon Imbue your main-hand weapon with the element of Wind. Each hit for 30 min. Each main-hand attack has a 25% chance to trigger two extra attacks, dealing [ 10.8% of Attack Power ] Physical damage each. Requires One-Handed Axes, Two-Handed Axes, One-Handed Maces, Two-Handed Maces, Staves, Fist Weapons, Daggers. Shaman - Enhancement Spec. Shaman - Enhancement Spec. Instant.

So is this a error ? or is 2 hand coming back It says 2 handed maces and 2 handed axes

[Oturanboa]

That 2h notation was added 4-5 builds back. I don't know if it tells anything about their intention, but we need those notations on both stormstrike and lava lash for it to mean anything.

[lollerlaban]

You're not technically wrong but then again, you're still incredibly useful for the raid so It doesn't matter. If I'm having fun and helping the gang then It's a win-win scenario.

You're not useful for the raid. Nightfall is like 300 dps increase, just bring another warrior/rogue at that point. The only point shaman existed was to totemtwist as Resto, that's it.

[Rawrajishxc]

You're not useful for the raid. Nightfall is like 300 dps increase, just bring another warrior/rogue at that point. The only point shaman existed was to totemtwist as Resto, that's it.

That's where you'd be wrong. You might want to recheck the ole memory if you ever actually played back then or check the logs.

[Elestia]

Honestly just let us do it ffs.

Missing the 'do what you want' aspect of the MMO genre.

[lollerlaban]

That's where you'd be wrong. You might want to recheck the ole memory if you ever actually played back then or check the logs.

Logs checked and you are indeed wrong. There's no reason to bring an enhancement shaman over another dps spots, it's just how it is. The spec was awful then and it's still awful in classic.

It's the same garbage with ret pala

[Oturanboa]

To people ranting about how bad enhancement was/is in vanilla:

Enhancement wasn't/isn't bad because of 2h. It's bad dps for the single reason shared by all hybrid classes.

Elemental
balance
retribution
shadow

They all run out of mana in a minute. Maybe less. Go do a dungeon with similarly geared people. Ask them to wait for you to drink between each pull. You will do just as much damage as a rogue or warrior if not more. You can try it right now. Cycling fire totems and using shocks every 6 seconds is serious dps. You just can't do that.

Ofc duel wield was better than 2h in tbc. But not by a huge margin as you guys imagine it to be. If you want to compete. You have to abuse every single thing you can. Having 2 weapon enhancements and having more chance to proc things are surely much better. Real reason enhancement could get into raid in tbc was because nothing but shamanistic rage. For sure not duel wield. It was just a cherry on top.

But in modern game, ppm values are so exact, corruptions couldn't create a snowball between classes even with such exaggerated effects. A 2h retri pala procs it just as much as you with duel wield and wf/ft hits.

For the 1000th time in this thread; No one is expecting to 1 shot people with 2h wf critz. We know it's calculated with attack power, not weapon damage. Every ability is the same.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjAuLc8qAcw

This dude is leveling 2h enhancement

Without stormstrike or lava lash. This is how much people like it. On the edge of lunacy!

Please gief 2h

[dewd]

ey they caved in with 2h frost and 1h fury. just make a few more of these thread but on the official forums and twitter. pretty sure they dont check mmoc

[wushootaki]

ey they caved in with 2h frost and 1h fury. just make a few more of these thread but on the official forums and twitter. pretty sure they dont check mmoc

The main difference is those classes aren't designed the same way Enhancement is.

DK and Warriors simply need tuning passes to balance the damage between 2h and 1h weapons. Enhancement is not so easy due to lava lash being tied to the off-hand, but also Windfury. Windfury damage for a 2h is significantly more than from a 1H weapon. Balancing this Windfury between 1h and 2h, along with the changes needed for lava lash to be reworked to be viable with 2h probably just don't outweigh the time and effort vs reward structure Blizzard operates on.

I'd love 2h, but I get why they don't do it. Now would be the time, but its clear they aren't trying to re-invent the wheel.

[Saltysquidoon]

The main difference is those classes aren't designed the same way Enhancement is.

DK and Warriors simply need tuning passes to balance the damage between 2h and 1h weapons.

KM is tied to swing speed, on the alpha right now 2h frost will need 38% crit to break even with DW's km procs.
DW has access too two runeforges.
The talents RA, FP and IT are designed for DW and effectively scale with swing speed, 2h will never get the same value from those talents as dw.

So yeah it's not 'simple' for frost.

[wushootaki]

KM is tied to swing speed, on the alpha right now 2h frost will need 38% crit to break even with DW's km procs.
DW has access too two runeforges.
The talents RA, FP and IT are designed for DW and effectively scale with swing speed, 2h will never get the same value from those talents as dw.

So yeah it's not 'simple' for frost.

You proved my point. None of this is fundamental changes to gameplay...its tuning. The biggest arguement you have is access to two runeforges. But as far as needing to change mechanics, they don't. They just need to tune 2h to be close to 1h, even if certain talents are optimal with dual-wielding. Enhance does not operate in the same manner.

[iosdeveloper]

we just want to play slightly improved classic classes in new zones /w new music, what's so hard to understand blizzard?

[Saltysquidoon]

You proved my point. None of this is fundamental changes to gameplay...its tuning. The biggest arguement you have is access to two runeforges. But as far as needing to change mechanics, they don't. They just need to tune 2h to be close to 1h, even if certain talents are optimal with dual-wielding. Enhance does not operate in the same manner.

Mate I don't even support giving frost 2h back because it was so impossible to balance much less 2h enhancement, it would be a disaster. But no it's not a tuning issue.

So, first of all, I don't think you really thought about how talents work now when you made your post. If one talent is better for DW only because it scales with swing speed (because it was designed exclusively for dw) and it's the best talent then DW just always wins forever. 2h can only either take a worse talent (unless you are suggesting they should make new talents exclusively for 2h in which case you jsut nuked your own argument) or take the same talent but it will be worse for them. If it's not the best talent then that's just one less advantage DW has, there can just never be situations where 2h can be ahead on talents because the only difference between the two specs is attack speed.

Secondly, the argument that the KM issue is 'just tuning' while Windfury would require a galaxy brain 5head rework is flawed. Fundamentally they're the same spell, on an auto attack there is a ppm chance to proc Y.
Because more swing speed means more chances to proc and KM can proc off both hands KM is just always better for DW (with 2h on the alpha needing 38% crit to compete assuming DW has not secondaries).
Windfury just has the opposite problem, because it can proc itself swing speed matters less and because it only procs off the main hand any advantage dw gained from higher swing speed is likely lost due to white misses.
But the point is the solution in both cases is a special skill to compensate or back end sperate ppm changes which is not 'tuning'.

Finally, I very much doubt needing to change LL would be more work then having to change three talents and how runeforging works.

[wushootaki]

Mate I don't even support giving frost 2h back because it was so impossible to balance much less 2h enhancement, it would be a disaster. But no it's not a tuning issue.

So, first of all, I don't think you really thought about how talents work now when you made your post. If one talent is better for DW only because it scales with swing speed (because it was designed exclusively for dw) and it's the best talent then DW just always wins forever. 2h can only either take a worse talent (unless you are suggesting they should make new talents exclusively for 2h in which case you jsut nuked your own argument) or take the same talent but it will be worse for them. If it's not the best talent then that's just one less advantage DW has, there can just never be situations where 2h can be ahead on talents because the only difference between the two specs is attack speed.

Secondly, the argument that the KM issue is 'just tuning' while Windfury would require a galaxy brain 5head rework is flawed. Fundamentally they're the same spell, on an auto attack there is a ppm chance to proc Y.
Because more swing speed means more chances to proc and KM can proc off both hands KM is just always better for DW (with 2h on the alpha needing 38% crit to compete assuming DW has not secondaries).
Windfury just has the opposite problem, because it can proc itself swing speed matters less and because it only procs off the main hand any advantage dw gained from higher swing speed is likely lost due to white misses.
But the point is the solution in both cases is a special skill to compensate or back end sperate ppm changes which is not 'tuning'.

Finally, I very much doubt needing to change LL would be more work then having to change three talents and how runeforging works.

KM and Windfury tuning for 1h dmg to 2h damage is identical. What you are missing is that enhance has additional dmg sources tied to it's offhand exclusively in flametongue, lava lash, and the rate at which you gain maelstrom stacks which directly effects how often you can heal or cast, things that just don't exist on the dk toolkit.


You would have to make a separate version of Windfury to act independently with 2h and 1h to offer the dmg difference brought by flametongue and lava lash because you can't simply tune Windfury alone due to the additional offhand abilities. Any tuning you do to Windfury to offset the dmg difference for 2h and 1h mute until you have different versions of Windfury for each weapon type. Double runeforge was your best argument because it's similar to this, but runeforging isn't a main mechanic that dk is built around.

I agree that 2h would be worse with talents that run on swing timers, but again, it's just tuning...rather than tuning and reworking abilities exclusive to one setup that the other setup no longer has access to because the game is coded to not allow your melee attack abilities to work with a single weapon.

Where 2h would outshine dual-wielding, and the reason why most on the dk forums seem to want it back..is for pvp burst. 2h will always provide chunkier hits for burst whereas dual wield will provide sustain and be better for pve.

[Razion]

I'd be cool if 2H Enhancement played the same as DW if it meant 2H could make it in.