Should flying have DIED with TBC?

[Pakheth]

Flying is fine when the world can be designed around it, but that can't always be done, and I think that's the part that dissenters to flying restrictions have the hardest time grasping. You lose the concept of what you're doing when you storm a camp to kill the leader if you just hover above him, land and only aggro him, and then fly up and out of said camp when you're done. That sounds like efficiency, and it is, but you do lose a part of the game when every aspect of efficiency and minor puzzle solving (fewest mobs to get to what I need, travel pathing, etc.) comes down to "just use flying." It over simplifies the game at that point. The solutions become putting everything in a building or cave, or adding anti-air batteries/mechanics everywhere we go, and that would also get stale quite quickly, and not make sense in many cases. Then you lose the open world to a degree.

It should definitely not be an option right away in an expansion, as Cataclysm showed us how easy it was to skip over things while questing, however I don't think it necessarily needs to be max level exclusive for every character. MoP let us buy books at cap that could be sent to alts to make leveling easier, and I think that was fine. You presumably did most of the story, leveled through content, and are now facilitating repeat play. I also think Pathfinder in concept is fine, though Blizzard tends to lag a bit in implementing it each expansion - bump up the timetable a bit, and I think it'll be nearly perfect.

I think we also need flying specific content to some degree. TBC had Skyreach, Orgi'la, and Netherwing as flying exclusive factions and content. I think it only makes sense that we would explore new territory with the ability to fly, but we haven't really seen that concept since TBC, which is disappointing. Storm Peaks kind of does this, but you're given a loaner mount, so it doesn't feel like you're rewarded with the content when you earn flying, if that makes sense. I don't know if I'd want that same trope every single expansion, but I do feel like it's a missed opportunity.

This is why it is so frustrating for us who are pro flying because Blizzard themselves stopped trying to make content for flying, The Order of the Cloud Serpent and Jade Forest being the last attempt albeit very enjoyable in my opinion. If you play with verticality you can achieve very interesting gameplay but you also have to stick with it and not just toss in the towel half way through.
Right now we have zones that are so hard to traverse on foot that most people simply avoid them, very few zones had this issue in the past(Blade's Edge Mountain comes to light and that zone sucked even with flying). Yes, the zones look interesting with its many nooks and crannies and caves on different levels but it is possible to do too much of a good thing. With flying a lot of these levels become a lot more manageable but they still feel too cluttered and cramped in my opinion.

Storm Peaks work well as a flying zone because of its countless levels at different heights and hidden Titan installations inside mountains where flying is prohibited. Skettis works well too because you always have the danger of the Kaliri's ability to knock you off your mount, but as you said having that everywhere would make it too much of an annoyance.

I am not sure if anyone else have noticed this but we the player doesn't really explore buildings as much anymore in newer zones. In Vanilla up to Wotlk we had keeps, tombs and cathedrals that kept us indoors and forced us off our mounts. Nowadays we mostly have caves and open air temples and that's it, the rest is instanced. I actually kinda miss finding a building and exploring it(and getting lost in them). Reintroducing larger non-instanced buildings could help negate the efficiency of flying without having to resort to dark dank caves constantly. The few buildings in Suramar isn't enough sadly.

I actually found Legion to be a lot more fun without flying than both WoD and BFA combined due to the two toys that let us glide and shoot us up in the air. In combination they allowed us an interesting form of exploration that was reasonably timed(as long as you didn't mess up and had to wait for cooldown). BFA had nothing like it because you couldn't climb half the mountains and therefore had no place to use a glider. Highmountain was a breeze with the glider, loved using it to reach the top of the southern PvP tower straight form the flight master. It made you think creatively and I miss that. BFA and WoD were very flat landmasses and didn't give us these options in the same way imo.

[Derpleton]

Wrath and TBC had it utilized well, large open and dangerous zones that required it to even access parts of. Everything else after Wrath has not utilized flying well, imagine if in Cata there was a level 85 subzone in Elwynn or Westfall that needed flying to access it, thus giving player a reason to go to those zones.

[Triceron]

Poll result speaks for itself.

[Elias01]

Flying was fine in Wrath where they designed late game zones with flying in mind. MoP was good aswell but everything else was pretty bad imo.

They didnt. There is no way you can desing anything around flying in wow.

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Wrath and TBC had it utilized well, large open and dangerous zones that required it to even access parts of. Everything else after Wrath has not utilized flying well, imagine if in Cata there was a level 85 subzone in Elwynn or Westfall that needed flying to access it, thus giving player a reason to go to those zones.

Dangerous? We literly just flyed over anything dangerous.

[Triceron]

Dangerous? We literly just flyed over anything dangerous.

Most people who had flying in TBC had the slow version, which allowed flying to be more dangerous than the zoom-anywhere speeds we are used to acknowledging. TBC also integrated some no-fly zones with NPC's shooting you down if you flew too close, and some areas that insta-kill you if you dismount over, bottomless pit style. Areas like the Felcannons made it dangerous to stray too close over the bottom-less borders if you had a slower flying mount.

TBH all they need to do is implement more dangers to flight and allow some gimmicks that slow down speed or add in obstacles to balance it out. Keep the safe-travel methods like Gryphon Whistles or such too, or give players a 'safe flight' mode that lets you travel more stealthily but you can't dismount as easily (making it less useful for gather or questing)

[rrayy]

Did you enjoy Storm Peaks? I didn't even get to Northrend before Cata so I never experienced it while it was cc.

YOu don't need a flying mount to get around storm peaks. The better arugment is Icecrown and even then you can complete all the quests without a flying mount.

[Soisoisoi]

You not liking something doesn't mean a core part of gameplay should be removed. Removing WPvP would be better, but considering some people like it, the compromise is to stop complaining about flying.

Flying isn't a core part of gameplay you pleb. Even Blizzard hate the fact it is in the game.

[Elias01]

Most people who had flying in TBC had the slow version, which allowed flying to be more dangerous than the zoom-anywhere speeds we are used to acknowledging. TBC also integrated some no-fly zones with NPC's shooting you down if you flew too close, and some areas that insta-kill you if you dismount over, bottomless pit style. Areas like the Felcannons made it dangerous to stray too close over the bottom-less borders if you had a slower flying mount.

TBH all they need to do is implement more dangers to flight and allow some gimmicks that slow down speed or add in obstacles to balance it out. Keep the safe-travel methods like Gryphon Whistles or such too, or give players a 'safe flight' mode that lets you travel more stealthily but you can't dismount as easily (making it less useful for gather or questing)

Only thing dangerious in TBC were Ogrila cannons what shot you down only if you stoped moving which isnt eaxctly hard to not do.

[SirCowdog]

They didnt. There is no way you can desing anything around flying in wow..

Not with that attitude, anyway....

There have been countless player suggestions on how to design content with flying. And keep in mind here that it doesn't necessarily mean exclusively flying COMBAT. Content is more than just combat. We could have zones that are full of underground/indoor areas where flying/mounts are disabled, but also with open areas that flying is available. Fill those areas with obstacles or hazards; whether it's massive trees or other foliage that block LoS, making AFK flying ineffective, or patrolling dragons/worms/airships/griffons to make flying players pay attention, or even something as simple as the floating fortresses like we saw in WOTLK questing.

The problem is that people who regularly argue against the inclusion of flight try too hard to boil it down to a simplistic equation of "flying ruins everything". And it's much more complex than that. All it requires is a little bit of creativity and willingness of Blizzard to not try and pack every square inch of the open world with quests and mobs.

[THEORACLE64]

Garrisons died with WOD. Should flying have died with TBC as well?

Lolno. Flying isn’t a terrible feature, unlike Garrisons.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Garrisons died with WOD. Should flying have died with TBC as well?

Well yes and no. The first concept of Garrisons did die with WoD but were improved and greatly appreciated to some degree in Legion. And flying no it should not have died in tbc. It allowed players to explore places they discovered must easier and get to point a - b much quicker.

[LordVargK]

Flying isn't a core part of gameplay you pleb. Even Blizzard hate the fact it is in the game.

Well, make a poll: Have flying or have WPvP.

I bet there are more active pet battle players than players who actively and willingly do WPvP.

[rrayy]

Flying isn't a core part of gameplay you pleb. Even Blizzard hate the fact it is in the game.

Wrong. They do not hate that flying is in the game. They just regret how it was implemented.

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Lolno. Flying isn’t a terrible feature, unlike Garrisons.

Garrisons weren't terrible.

[Termak]

Free flying ruined the world, now its just autopiloting between hotspots, why bother making all these great zones when ppl cant even see them anymore.

[Erous]

IMO, flying added endless possibilities for content. Not only just questing and whatnot, but mini games, achievements, mounts, toys, etc. But, laziness and cost to develop took over the studio. There was a glimpse of creative opportunity in MoP, but once MoP was finished, the faster they produced something the better. And that's evident today in the lack of communication between dev, QA and the customer base.

Flying either should've never happened, or EXPANDED.

[Soisoisoi]

Wrong. They do not hate that flying is in the game. They just regret how it was implemented.

FTFY ^

10char

[bloodkin]

flying in itself isn't the problem, how can people still think that this is the case?

for TBC, WotLK and to a certain degree cata, flying was taken into the design of the landscapes. It worked out really well for these expansions, as blizz tried didn't see it as an obstacle, but as a tool for players to creat more unique places. you can't blame the tool for being used poorly. When it came to MoP and subsequent expansions, the devs changed their mind and didn't seem to be interested anymore in properly utilizing flight in their design. Not to say that Pandaria isn't a well designed continent, it's just that blizz let a lot of good opportunities to use flight go to waste. Though I will say that the design after Pandaria really got worse.

[docterfreeze]

You should only be able to fly in zones that require flying. It makes sense to fly in zones like icecrown and netherstorm, but adding flying to vanilla zones was a bad move and new zones don't really need flying.

[SirCowdog]

FTFY ^

10char

The thing people need to understand is that there's a difference between where the newer devs of WoW want the game to go and be, and what the original team of WoW devs were trying to build. And that hindsight is 20/20.

It's like an artist who will always see the tiniest flaw in a piece they created, and want to do the entire thing over again, whereas the audience views it as a masterpiece. In that regard, Flying is not inherently bad just because a couple of devs said they regret the way it turned out, or would have gone a different way if they could do it over. They're not seeing all the enjoyment and fun and wonder that many players get out of flying, or the possibilities it represents.

And players who constantly rag on flying using that line of "they regret putting flight in the game" aren't really thinking it through. They're just trying to load up some ammunition that fits their point of view better.

What it comes down to is that being able to fly everywhere without restriction is bad. I say that as a long-time pro-flight player. But that's not the entire story of flight, nor what most reasonable pro-flight players are asking for. Flying in some areas, used intelligently, creates the potential for a wider array of content than the simplistic two-dimensional, super-crowded landscape design that we see all too often in modern zones. It's less of an open world, and more of a series of compartmentalized encountered smashed as close to each other as possible.

Refusing to deal with flight is one of the worst decisions Blizzard has ever made. Shoving it to the back corner with pathfinder, and designing ground-only areas everywhere, detracts from the overall potential of the game. I hope Blizz has finally learned this lesson with Shadowlands, but we'll see.

[Relapses]

The thing people need to understand is that there's a difference between where the newer devs of WoW want the game to go and be, and what the original team of WoW devs were trying to build. And that hindsight is 20/20.

It's like an artist who will always see the tiniest flaw in a piece they created, and want to do the entire thing over again, whereas the audience views it as a masterpiece. In that regard, Flying is not inherently bad just because a couple of devs said they regret the way it turned out, or would have gone a different way if they could do it over. They're not seeing all the enjoyment and fun and wonder that many players get out of flying, or the possibilities it represents.

And players who constantly rag on flying using that line of "they regret putting flight in the game" aren't really thinking it through. They're just trying to load up some ammunition that fits their point of view better.

What it comes down to is that being able to fly everywhere without restriction is bad. I say that as a long-time pro-flight player. But that's not the entire story of flight, nor what most reasonable pro-flight players are asking for. Flying in some areas, used intelligently, creates the potential for a wider array of content than the simplistic two-dimensional, super-crowded landscape design that we see all too often in modern zones. It's less of an open world, and more of a series of compartmentalized encountered smashed as close to each other as possible.

Refusing to deal with flight is one of the worst decisions Blizzard has ever made. Shoving it to the back corner with pathfinder, and designing ground-only areas everywhere, detracts from the overall potential of the game. I hope Blizz has finally learned this lesson with Shadowlands, but we'll see.

Surprised we got to page 5 before you showed up. Out of curiosity, do you ever get tired of copying and pasting the same response in every flying thread?

The new approach is not inherently worse. You have an opinion that one was better than the other but this is not a fact. Please stop trying to justify your opinion as this universally accepted truth by capitulating the dull, overly cynical and completely bland "old game devs good, new game devs BAD," ideology that is so omniscient on this forum. This is a disingenuous, flawed line of reasoning which appeals only to the type of people who flock to these threads to get happy little updoots from internet strangers about their shared nostalgia of the "good ol days before mean ol Blizzard ruined the game by removing flying from it."

(And please, for the love of God and all that is holy do not try to paint the results of this poll as some kind of support for your argument because that isn't even what the poll is asking.)

edit: Dang, guess you posted on the previous page too.