Icecrown (Spoilers)

[BaumanKing]

You know what, Calia would be perfect as a new leader of Argent Crusade. There she can do good for her lordaeronian people (both living and undead).

[Super Dickmann]

Damn, I missed their popping back. Checking google/wowpedia/wowhead just mentions them being in one of the asaults but cannot find which. Do you remember which one? (Checked Nazmir assault as the obvious one, but didn't find mentions of them there)

It's the bit of the war campaign with the Lightforged around Hir'eek's hole. They're talking about Chadwick's garden in Lordaeron.

[Fewane]

It's the bit of the war campaign with the Lightforged around Hir'eek's hole. They're talking about Chadwick's garden in Lordaeron.

Yay, will look into that. Anything to make BfA a bit better experience. Thanks!

[Mehrunes]

2) the forsaken players who like to be more morally black are going to have to get over it to begin with. the horde story has gone in a more heroic route. The nationalists in the orcs are gone, the 'kill all humans' in the forsaken apothecary and dark rangers are gone. So regardless of who leads the Forsaken are going in a more heroic direction.

Except we've seen both hardcore Dark Rangers and apothecaries in the camp that denounced Sylvanas.

4) not liking the story direction is no reason for fans to be so crummy.

How about you take your imaginary authoritah that lets you pretend you're some gatekeeper of what reactions to the story (especially in context of a story that continues the recent trend of walking all over previously established Forsaken story) other people have, pack it up and put it back in whatever dark crevice you pulled it from in the first place?

5)The FACT of the matter is, Calia IS the Queen of Lordearon, the country almost all forsaken are from. And She has an active interest in helping them. Sylvannas was a foreigner, she wasnt even an animated corpse. and she was blatantly there as the "token badass metal sexy woman who will kick your ass" leader. Calia wasnt made with necromancy but she IS an animated corpse unlike sylvannas who is a spirit animating her own corpse.

A country that doesn't exist anymore and thanks to BtS retconning Cataclysm Forsaken questline wasn't reinvigorated by Sylvanas.

Like i said , I didnt want Calia to lead either because of the whole 'holy savior, new character ' angle. but Sylvannas was "the undead's sexy badass perfect cool cult leader" is just as eyeroll worthy. but from a STORY perspective it does make sense.

Oh, yes. It totally makes sense for a bunch of people that have dimmed affect because of their method being completely different to what happened to Calia to just welcome her with open arms after she abandoned them for a decade (which is what it'd look like from their perspective). Or, in case for Forsaken of non-Lordaeronian heritage (humans from other nations, High Elves, some others), matters fuck all to them. Instead of being led by their own. Like they already did when Sylvanas relocated to Orgrimmar. Especially since it's not even a question of them recreating the Desolate Council, because multiple members of it survived and nothing has ever been said about it being disbanded.

[Andonais]

Voss wasn't a Forsaken until shortly prior to BfA. Which, you know, she herself states at the start of BfA. And that very fact has been used to criticize her prominence as a Forsaken character at the expense of characters that have actually been members of the Forsaken for more than a year (which extends beyond Voss because aside from the characters that got hit with the villain bat all the prominent "Forsaken" character we've had as of late were people like Zelling, undead Night Elves and Calia). And Valeera is a sworn servant of House Wrynn. And just like Voss admitted she wasn't Forsaken just until the last expansion, in the past Valeera admitted she's not Horde. So gee, whyever would people find it annoying that she's presented as some prominent Horde character now.

Totally agree with this Voss is only a candidate becuase there are actually no other undead characters in lore who could be considered. Voss is absolutely not a leader character shes pretty much a loner rogue

[Mehrunes]

yes which is why i want Lilian voss to lead, not Calia.

but thats not whats going on here.

whats going on here is people seeing an image of members of the horde and alliance, some of which arent even faction leaders, trying to save the world. and then decrying and insulting the writers because they think it means they are going a certain route with the story, which might not even be bad.

It's almost as if we just went through an entire expansion of Blizzard writing a piss-poor excuse of a story that - contrary to their play-pretend antics like pulling a loyalist path (that amounted to jack shit by design) at the last second because people were critical of a retread of MoP or, I dunno, outright lying in interviews - was taken in the most transparent and obvious path of the least resistance. For all of Blizzard's smokescreens like them trying to obfuscate Teldrassil issue before it hit live, the story went as people expected. Blizzard doesn't do depth and they sure as hell don't do believable misdirection. Especially since in this case they've been already beating around the bush and testing their waters in regards to putting Calia in a leadership position.

[Timester]

And you keep ignoring my question for the sake of arguing over a pointless thing... Typical MMO-Champion I guess.

It's not my fault you choose to ignore my answers. Sylvanas is on the same position as Garrosh was during WoD. So, no, ignoring everything happening on the Shadowlands just to destroy the Helm on a chance that might kill her is not a plan to be considered.

- - - Updated - - -

It's almost as if we just went through an entire expansion of Blizzard writing a piss-poor excuse of a story that - contrary to their play-pretend antics like pulling a loyalist path (that amounted to jack shit by design) at the last second because people were critical of a retread of MoP or, I dunno, outright lying in interviews - was taken in the most transparent and obvious path of the least resistance. For all of Blizzard's smokescreens like them trying to obfuscate Teldrassil issue before it hit live, the story went as people expected. Blizzard doesn't do depth and they sure as hell don't do believable misdirection. Especially since in this case they've been already beating around the bush and testing their waters in regards to putting Calia in a leadership position.

We are reaching the conclusion that isn't not faction wars that Blizzard can't write, it's factions, period.

[TickTickTick]

Haha, the Horde is such a mess. Two characters who are Alliance in heart, one character that considered leaving the Horde and joining the Alliance, one character that considered joining the Alliance first, but joined the Horde only because she was "shunned", and a troll who's not even a leader of anything.

And it's clear that they are Garroshing Tyrande at this point. I'm almost certain she's going to be a boss in SL somewhere.

And a typical "I could kill you know, but I'll just keep you here instead for shit and giggles" coming from Sylvanas.

Overall this looks laughably bad, as if they weren't even trying to write anything making sense.

[Venziir]

I wonder HOW exactly Sylvanas managed to kidnap Thrall, Jaina, Baine and Anduin without anyone noticing.

[Varodoc]

It's not my fault you choose to ignore my answers. Sylvanas is on the same position as Garrosh was during WoD. So, no, ignoring everything happening on the Shadowlands just to destroy the Helm on a chance that might kill her is not a plan to be considered.

- - - Updated - - -



We are reaching the conclusion that isn't not faction wars that Blizzard can't write, it's factions, period.

Except for, you know, the fact that that wasn't my question at all. My question is if it would kill her, not how feasible that is. Nor did I ever even imply we should ignore everything just to do that.

[Super Dickmann]

I wonder HOW exactly Sylvanas managed to kidnap Thrall, Jaina, Baine and Anduin without anyone noticing.

If you saw the men in black taking away Baine in an unmarked van, would you call the cops? I mean, I don't know about you, but personally I might look the other way.

[Saltysquidoon]

and sylvannas is an elf who hates the forsaken and Calia is a human ruler of the kingdom the forsaken come from who actually wants to help them.

It seems like you spent a lot of this thread stanning for Calia which is cool don't let me keep you but:
Slyvanas being an elf and Calia being a human is literally irrelevant to the forsaken, they aren't an ethnic group. Further just because PC Forsaken are humans doesn't mean there aren't forsaken of essentially all races at this point, their lack of representation is just a game limitation.

It's in the eye of the beholder and all that... But I never saw the Forsaken as badasses. Just abjects abominations with no redeeming qualities. Since TFT.

It's a quote from the Vanilla devs, I use it to contrast their 00's gamer bro attitude (I mean no one unironically says badass anymore) with the "strive to protect the living" shit Golden is shovelling.

[Aucald]

I am a bit confused in regard to this thread - is it at all confirmed that Calia is now the leader of the Forsaken? I read through the text and dialogues and all the images, but nowhere do I see Calia tagged or referred to as "Banshee Queen" or "Leader of the Forsaken" either explicitly or implicitly. Sure, she's standing amidst the other Horde NPC's gathered there - but it's a rather motley crew, all told. Is it where Tyrande upbraids her? That's strange in and of itself, as Calia had nothing to do with anything that Tyrande should be angry with i.e. the War of Thorns, unless she's just lumping all undead together in her raging emotional state.

It still seems like people are jumping to unproven conclusions. This isn't a gathering of Horde and Alliance leaders as evidenced by the presence of Valeera, and a bunch of other random NPC's - so Calia's presence doesn't automatically make her leader of the Forsaken just yet. She may well prove to be, but there's no real evidence that's the case from this particular interlude.

[Aucald]

I wonder HOW exactly Sylvanas managed to kidnap Thrall, Jaina, Baine and Anduin without anyone noticing.

I assume they were in the vanguard of the remaining retinue that's left, and she pulled them in with her when she journeys over into the Maw (one of the screenshots shows her with the now iconic chains extended beyond the image). She probably snagged whoever was closest and brought them into the Shadowlands to imprison.

[Mehrunes]

I wonder HOW exactly Sylvanas managed to kidnap Thrall, Jaina, Baine and Anduin without anyone noticing.

She hired some underpants gnomes. Or the Spanish Inquisition. Plus more monumental ineptitude from the Alliance.

The question that irks me more is WHY. Why did she kidnap them? Because by the looks of it, it's obvious bait. But there's this teeny tiny issue of "giant hole in the sky that threatens us all" that kinda throws a wrench here because it makes it beyond redundant. At which point the only real reason is to shove how oh, so unique, important and amazing those characters are down our throats.

And, in usual Blizzard fashion, because those easily kidnapped half-wits are "the good guys" no actual harm or any comeuppance will ever bite them in their asses. Because even if you squeeze your eyes so hard they pop so that the bait doesn't look pointless, they don't need to be alive for the bait to function. Their fate is unknown to the rest of Azeroth so it doesn't matter if they are living or dead at that point.

Yet both Sylvanas and all the Maw forces just let them be (unattended at times) for no fucking reason. Even though killing them and letting their souls go to the Maw empowers them, while there is no benefit whatsoever to still keeping them alive. The only reason they are is because they are Blizzard's take on The Good Guys and how in their stories The Good Guys must wear plot armor thicker than the radius of the solar system.

It's not believable, it's not logical and it doesn't make me root for those guys despite that probably being Blizzard's desire here. It's just diarrhea inducing. I actually have some stomach stomach issues for two days by now. Initially I assumed I caught some bug. But now I know that it's because this writing is so shitty it transcended time and made me cringe to the point of disturbing my stomach two days in advance.

[Timester]

I am a bit confused in regard to this thread - is it at all confirmed that Calia is now the leader of the Forsaken? I read through the text and dialogues and all the images, but nowhere do I see Calia tagged or referred to as "Banshee Queen" or "Leader of the Forsaken" either explicitly or implicitly. Sure, she's standing amidst the other Horde NPC's gathered there - but it's a rather motley crew, all told. Is it where Tyrande upbraids her? That's strange in and of itself, as Calia had nothing to do with anything that Tyrande should be angry with i.e. the War of Thorns, unless she's just lumping all undead together in her raging emotional state.

It still seems like people are jumping to unproven conclusions. This isn't a gathering of Horde and Alliance leaders as evidenced by the presence of Valeera, and a bunch of other random NPC's - so Calia's presence doesn't automatically make her leader of the Forsaken just yet. She may well prove to be, but there's no real evidence that's the case from this particular interlude.

Calia standing on the Horde leadership side, tagged as friendly to Horde and Hostile to Alliance, not neutral, kind answers to it.

Funny thing is Mekkatorque is tagged as neutral.

[Kyphael]

I mean... how so? She was enslaved by the Horde, bailed the first chance she got, and joined up with the Wrynns ever since?

And here she is standing beside The Horde.

[Velshin]

It is kind of annoying that the alliance gets some major players to show up ... and the biggest Horde person is ... Lor'themar ... don't get me wrong, I want to see more love thrown his way, but it just seems weird.

So you don't consider Thrall a major character for Horde side?

What you guys want really? if they focus on other characters to give me more screentime...you whine and if they focus on the major character like Thrall or Garrosh or whatever then you whine again about using the same characters over and over again...what you guys want really?

[TickTickTick]

Calia standing on the Horde leadership side, tagged as friendly to Horde and Hostile to Alliance, not neutral, kind answers to it.

She's tagged as neutral for the Alliance though:



- - - Updated - - -

So you don't consider Thrall a major character for Horde side?

What you guys want really? if they focus on other characters to give me more screentime...you whine and if they focus on the major character like Thrall or Garrosh or whatever then you whine again about using the same characters over and over again...what you guys want really?

I guess he's talking about the gathering on the top of ICC.

What we want? Maybe the Horde races having actual leaders? Currently neither orcs, nor trolls, nor the forsaken, nor the goblins have a leader.

[Thage]

5) A troll. A sad last element of that list, as I have truly no idea which troll is that supposed to be.

That'd be Rokhan, the new Darkspear Chieftain and, previously, Champion of the Horde and Rexxar's right-hand man during the Founding of Durotar campaign, and one of the main troll characters in BFA's Horde campaign.

On-topic: Valeera's about as apolitical as a character in Warcraft can get. She's said more than once that her only loyalty is to the Wrynn family personally. Her total lack of interest in the factions is why she's used often in BFA as a messenger by both the Alliance and Horde, most often to send messages between Anduin and the Horde rebels or between the Horde rebels. Calia being set up as one of the chief Forsaken representatives was a done deal once Lillian took her and Derek under her wing--if you talk to Lillian after finishing 8.2.5, she acknowledges that she's pretty much the only person who can step up and give the Forsaken a voice at the table right now, but she has absolutely no desire to make it a long-term thing. Looks like by the time we all meet up at Icecrown Calia has acclimated well enough to take the gig so Lillian can go back to working in the background as is her preference.

It's also worth noting, @OP, the faction lines are much softer at the moment since most of the current Horde council are on friendly or at least amiable terms with Anduin and Jaina. Calia and Valeera standing with the Horde leadership isn't indicative of too much right now, and if faction battle lines are drawn again it's all but assured Valeera will continue to stand by the Wrynn family, unless something extreme happens to break her loyalty.