Pelagos is horrifying, not empowering

[Vakir]

I think it's naive to believe the Kyrians don't have pretty significant problems that Blizzard may or may not be blind to. I say "may not" because a big part of the zone's conflict leads to things like the Forsworn completely independent of the Jailer's involvement.

Saying it's "the most evil" compared to an eternity of rotating tortures to keep misery fresh with no escape whatsoever is a pretty ridiculous take.

[Verdugo]

Explain.



Unless you're Bob Flanagan, please, tell me more.

This kind of bothers me, propably because undead beings from afterlife that are supposed to be standing army and nothing else are somehow remade to feel pain

[Pury]

Even if you are tortured in Hell there is still hope it will be over, people are optimistic by nature.
You are already in afterlife, torture will not "kill" you, just deal with it and who knows, maybe angels eventually invade hell and free everybody, or THE DEVIL will get bored or whatever.
When you are erased from existence, when your personality and memories fade, there is no hope for any change, you are done, that's it.
If you think it is obvious what is better/worse - you didn't think enough.

[Daronokk]

My favorite type of science, the kind that lacks any evidence and isn't actually supported by any experts on the field. The kind of science that comes from gut feelings and people who don't have any expertise in the subject matter.

Hormonal defect. But keep denying it if it makes you feel better.

[Lahis]

I'm not sure I understand this, are Blizzard pushing trans into WoW? When GW2 did that it was very immersion breaking and very real world feeling, sounds like the SJW cancer has crept into WoW based on Blizzards preface post.

Is nothing sacred anymore? What's next, trump hate quests?

Yes. A female soul in Bastion takes a male form after being turned into Kyrian. They even made a Blue Post about his pronous. That's how important this is to the development of the expansion.

[Vakir]

Even if you are tortured in Hell there is still hope it will be over, people are optimistic by nature.
You are already in afterlife, torture will not "kill" you, just deal with it and who knows, maybe angels eventually invade hell and free everybody, or THE DEVIL will get bored or whatever.
When you are erased from existence, when your personality and memories fade, there is no hope for any change, you are done, that's it.
If you think it is obvious what is better/worse - you didn't think enough.

"If you disagree with this extremely basic take that requires a lot of ignoring of human nature and offers hope to only one side, you are wrong and aren't thinking enough."

So follow me here. We know the Shadowlands predates the Titans. We don't know when the Maw exactly came to be, although we do know that the Jailer came after the creation of the Shadowlands, as they've said we'll see what it was like before he showed up. This means that the Maw has existed, while not from the beginning, likely for an extremely long period of time. They also say that canonically, nobody has ever left the Maw, which means that you need to sustain that kind of hope for millenia.

(This is ignoring how utterly ridiculous it is to say that "people are optimistic by nature." I don't know how many people you've met in your lifetime. I'm also not entirely sure you're familiar with how people placed in real suffering quickly lose any hope whatsoever. The ones who retain it are the exceptions as evidenced by basic institutionalization. But this is fantasy so we can give it a pass.)

We also know that from the starting experience, eventually the Jailer will claim people tormented over a long enough period of time in his standing army. This is evidenced by even relatively "new" souls added from Teldrassil being added to his standing army.

Baine Bloodhoof: The size of the Jailer's army rivals that of the Legion... and it's growing larger.
Anduin Wrynn: So many souls pouring into the Maw. The dead of Azeroth... Draenor... worlds beyond our imagination. All damned to this place.
Baine Bloodhoof: To be forged into weapons for the Jailer.

Highlord Darion Mograine: Some of the souls here have wandered this realm for untold ages.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore: I've only been able to speak to a few souls. Most haven't been here long. Those that have were either aggressive... or broken.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore: They manifest as malevolent shades that wander the dark reaches of this place.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore: If there were some way to extract their secrets, it might tell us what we need to know.

So basically, you're still stripped of your individuality, you're just done so painfully in service of being a weapon to a malevolent despot instead of a bunch of sanctimonious pricks in the service of ferrying the "good" peeps, and you still get your pick of how you're homogenized into a boring smurf.

Still a ridiculous take. The Maw remains the worst. Whether they'll properly acknowledge how messed up the Kyrians are? I'd be interested to see that. But it sure seems like all 4 zones are meant to suck at least a little bit. Gameplay aside, if one covenant was meant to be completely peachy, it would remove a lot of the choice factor for people aiming for that.

This kind of bothers me, propably because undead beings from afterlife that are supposed to be standing army and nothing else are somehow remade to feel pain

I dunno if Blizzard even thought that far, but that's a definite fair point. I guess the all-consuming powers of Death can spontaneously create nerve endings.

[VinceVega]

Even if you are tortured in Hell there is still hope it will be over, people are optimistic by nature.
You are already in afterlife, torture will not "kill" you, just deal with it and who knows, maybe angels eventually invade hell and free everybody, or THE DEVIL will get bored or whatever.
When you are erased from existence, when your personality and memories fade, there is no hope for any change, you are done, that's it.
If you think it is obvious what is better/worse - you didn't think enough.

Well i DO still exist. I just don't remember anything about what happend before. Also: Aren't they asked if they want that in the quests?

[Verdugo]

I dunno if Blizzard even thought that far, but that's a definite fair point. I guess the all-consuming powers of Death can spontaneously create nerve endings.

Its just another lame attempt at portraying enemy side as more evil. Just like scourge using slaves instead of killing them, raising them and using that as a workforce.

[Thelyron]

I like how 1st try on trans in-game is fragile and emotionally unstable being. Like trying to say being trans is mental illness. WP blizz

It is a mental illness. That is not a statement of value about the people suffering from it, but it is absolutely a mental illness.

Infracted.

[Vakir]

It is a mental illness. That is not a statement of value about the people suffering from it, but it is absolutely a mental illness.

Post-Masters Mental Health here. The feeling resulting from the dysphoria if not addressed is considered one. Being trans is not. Plenty of people find a way, sometimes not even through direct reassignment, to be fine.

If this is truly a thread about how the Kyrian ethos is broken and fucked up and not just the OP concern trolling, I think this is off-topic at this point, but it's worth pointing out because mental health pathologies are just labels we give to behavioral criteria. I can't see Depression under a microscope like I can something like a physical science, even if I can see different neural firings related to the disorder's presentation. So if someone who is trans has love and support and can reconcile their identity, and actively don't have disruption in their life, the negative symptoms of dysphoria aren't a factor and they can't really be seen as "mentally ill."

To tie it back in, the big thing about the Kyrian lifestyle, with the value of being dutiful and selfless, comes in the form of taking away personal choice of the people "sorted" into it if they don't want to be smurf-valkyries as opposed to being doubtful of their own capabilities as one. I think that's my big beef with it. If you want to be an angel steward for the good people dying, go nuts, but the entire issue hinges on what the hell is up with the Arbiter (and the other one billion places you can go after you die that aren't playable zones). And we don't know any of that yet.

[VinceVega]

Is this thread really necessary? People allready start with their Handmade Medical Feelings about transgender poeple being sick and whatnot.

[Verdugo]

Is this thread really necessary? People allready start with their Handmade Medical Feelings about transgender poeple being sick and whatnot.

You can thank alex wolf for bringing that up.

[Vakir]

Is this thread really necessary?

It really isn't. At best it's Kyrian Hot Take #847 which has been done since November. At worst a different way to bitch about a news post that's already there.

[Twdft]

Again. Minor character who happens to be trans, and the internet just loses it's shit. It's no big deal, it's not a political statement, it's not being woke or whatever the fuck, its a character that happens to be trans. Which is a real thing that people experience. The only reason this is a big deal is because it's putting a face to the minority that people like to hate on. Again, you just don't want to acknowledge we exist, because our existence offends you on a fundamental level. Pelagos isnt hurting anyone. Grow up.

It's strange how RPG players of all people are able to hate on people different than them.

We create characters all the time that are different to us, many characters of the opposite sex, characters not even human 6 out of 7 times. We identify with these characters who are totally different than us and talk about "I raided Ny'alotha yesterday"... and still some people can't get over the fact that there will be 1 (one) trans NPC in the game.

The mind wobbles.

[Lahis]

It's strange how RPG players of all people are able to hate on people different than them.

We create characters all the time that are different to us, many characters of the opposite sex, characters not even human 6 out of 7 times. We identify with these characters who are totally different than us and talk about "I raided Ny'alotha yesterday"... and still some people can't get over the fact that there will be 1 (one) trans NPC in the game.

The mind wobbles.

Who identifies with a damn WoW toon on a personal level? It it just a bag of gameplay mechanics you use to play the game.

[LemonDemonGirl]

They're NOT happy though. The brainwashing rituals are the entire reason the Forsworn exist and the quests want you to emphasize with the Forsworn. Pelagos is a terrifying edge case where Kyrians are a little too successful with their brainwashing. There's a reason Pelagos is one of the first Kyrians you are introduced to and he is all super happy and stuff - you are supposed to start feeling uneasy once you discover what Kyrian cleansing rituals entail and how Pelagos came to be what he is.

Thankfully Uther still wants to be himself, but we all know how that's going to end up right? I wish the Kyrians were evil and we could just instead fight them, because being brainwashed into becoming a blue smurf with wings is just wrong in my eyes.

If Pelagos was happily delivering souls to be judged and assigned to one of possible hells because Kyrians let him be a blue dragon I'd still be making this thread. Kyrians as a whole are more unsettling than the obvious torture afterlives of the Maw, Maldraxxus and Revendreth.

Well, in Ardenweald you're forced to take on an animal form (I think) , but thankfully you get to keep your memories. It's the least bad Afterlife out of the four imho

Hell, even the Troll Afterlife is all f**ked up. Mueh'zala is the creator/boss of it and Bwonsamdi's basically there to lead souls into his belly.

(Maybe in 9.1 or beyond we'll get a fifth Covenant for a reasonable Afterlife?)

[RadasNoir]

Kyrians: sever the connection to your old life and carry souls to the Arbiter to be judged and placed in one of a myriad of hellish afterlives

Uther: fuck you, I'm still Uther

...

Kyrians: sever the connection to your old life and carry souls to the Arbiter to be judged and placed in one of a myriad of hellish afterlives

Pelagos: I'm going to abandon everything I was and do as you command

See why the latter is scarier than the former? People in the original thread were trying to pass it off as a good thing somehow. It's not. It's meant to be disturbing, uncanny and terrifying.

I'm a little confused, and likely missing context, but it sounds like both Uther and Pelagos both made choices of their own free will? Uther decided to remain as himself (except blue, I guess), but Pelagos wanted a fresh start? Where does the alleged brainwashing come in?

[Kyux]

we get it trans people scare you but shut the ever living fuck up

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Quaade]

"Just asking questions."

Translation: I have bigoted ideas either consciously or subconsciously.

No one has ever stated that they were "just asking questions" in good faith. People think there's some implicit virtue in playing devil's advocate. There's none, sometimes it's needed and at most other times it just makes the person look horrible.

[Aphrel]

Now im confused, op is talking about lore and speculating that the kyrians might not be the good guys in shadowlands due to their process or erasing and replacing the identity of the souls coming to them.

Yet all the replies are going all political about transpeople?