The Last of Us Part II

[Kolvarg]

Don’t you get it all of Abbie’s girl friends were actually guys it’s the only reason they were killed it’s the only explanation.

Apparently they were right all along, the SJW propaganda is real since half the characters are trans


I don't dislike the Angry Joe's review, he does raise valid criticism, but when it comes to the story it seriously just feels like he completely missed the point because he was angry at the writers instead of taking it for what it is. Especially when he was already angry about it from the spoilers. He wanted TLOU2 to be a "Joel and Elly Adventures" game, and I think the fact that's not what this game is clouded his judgment a lot.

I think Girlfriend Review's video on the story explains fairly well a lot of the story that Joe missed, even if in a bit presumptuous way at times:

[Stormdash]

Best review so far that I've seen was by The Critical Drinker. Probably kinder to the game than you'd expect going in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGtKUaPhdfk

[segara82]

Every time i hear 'you didn't get it so your criticism is invalid' i have to hold back from laughing out loud. When you need an extra video after all is done to explain the story then the writer/storyteller failed at his job. Simple as that.

And after watching playthoughs of both games and comments from both sides i do agree with Joes analysis. Pacing, writing, characters ... horribly fumbled. From a shere technological point it is perfect, but that's it.

[Skorpionss]

Best review so far that I've seen was by The Critical Drinker. Probably kinder to the game than you'd expect going in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGtKUaPhdfk

I can't watch that guy's vids, the way he talks makes me nauseous for some reason. I got nothing against the guy so it's not an attack against him, it's just my personal issue.

[Tech614]

Every time i hear 'you didn't get it so your criticism is invalid' i have to hold back from laughing out loud. When you need an extra video after all is done to explain the story then the writer/storyteller failed at his job. Simple as that.

And after watching playthoughs of both games and comments from both sides i do agree with Joes analysis. Pacing, writing, characters ... horribly fumbled. From a shere technological point it is perfect, but that's it.

Nah, I'll be honest. There is nothing subtle in this game at all. The fact that anyone misses vital plot points and meanings is clear evidence they just tried to rush through the game for the clout of getting to say "story sux". Joe is objectively wrong on a few of his points, and they aren't things exactly easy to miss if you're even paying the slightest attention to the game. But he wasn't, he was more worried about what his chat was saying because he lets his community control his "opinions".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Every time i hear 'you didn't get it so your criticism is invalid' i have to hold back from laughing out loud. When you need an extra video after all is done to explain the story then the writer/storyteller failed at his job. Simple as that.

And after watching playthoughs of both games and comments from both sides i do agree with Joes analysis. Pacing, writing, characters ... horribly fumbled. From a shere technological point it is perfect, but that's it.

it's not that the criticism becomes invalid it just becomes devalued when you can't even grasp the basic that are blatantly shown to you though out the game. you don't need any thing outside of what's shown to you in game to explain the story or writing you just need to not stick your head in the sand while going though the actual game.

when it comes to joe's views its plainly clear even if you just go to his stream for a bit like i did that he has some huge bias that blind him to many things even if he try's to pretend he doesn't like at the start of his review.

[Relapses]

Nah, I'll be honest. There is nothing subtle in this game at all. The fact that anyone misses vital plot points and meanings is clear evidence they just tried to rush through the game for the clout of getting to say "story sux". Joe is objectively wrong on a few of his points, and they aren't things exactly easy to miss if you're even paying the slightest attention to the game. But he wasn't, he was more worried about what his chat was saying because he lets his community control his "opinions".

You're right, but only partially. I'd personally give the game a 6/10 (maybe 7/10 because of the guitar mini-game) myself because of the issues I had with the story (concerns which Joe echoed). I understand not everybody sees it that way which is why I generally support people who view the game in a positive light. But at the end of the day, opinions are opinions and it's a bit of a broad stroke to say that Joe is pandering to his audience simply because he agrees with the anti-TLoU2 groupthink.

[Tech614]

You're right, but only partially. I'd personally give the game a 6/10 (maybe 7/10 because of the guitar mini-game) myself because of the issues I had with the story (concerns which Joe echoed). I understand not everybody sees it that way which is why I generally support people who view the game in a positive light. But at the end of the day, opinions are opinions and it's a bit of a broad stroke to say that Joe is pandering to his audience simply because he agrees with the anti-TLoU2 groupthink.

Oh it's not just based off TLOU2 and if you think it is you haven't kept up with Joe over the past few years. Joe changed to pander to a certain crowd years ago after he lost a lot of support. He no longer has a voice and is only echoing the chamber that is his "fans".

Lastly I could care less if anyone gives a game a 6/10. If you give it a 6/10 and make statements that are blatantly false however you think I'm going to take that score serious?

[quras]

Spoilers obviously but this was pretty hilarious.

Thats one of the funniest and best videos i've seen lately about this game. I'm a bit shocked it got a 6/10 but stories are like that. to each their own but damn that was a great video about the game.

Thanks for that.

[Zenfoldor]

I'm still making my way through. I'm actually a little disappointed that by the time I get to give an opinion, all of this attention will have passed. That said, there is no need to rush a game like this.

From a pure gameplay perspective so far, let me give a little praise here. This game has some accessibility features that allow one to customize their gameplay experience. The gameplay itself is divided up between enemy interaction and environmental progression. I understand that a non-violence playthrough needs gameplay outside of sneaking, and also long ago ND developed this environmental progression system where they show you a location and get you to puzzle it out.

Effectively, one can go into the accessibility option and really turn on and off each gameplay(including aforementioned environmental exploration by way of a helper arrow, but I'm not sure if that is exclusive to this game or if it was in their earlier games too) type(or if not turn it off, completely trivialize it). In this way, one could create a stealth game or an action game(of varying difficulty) just by adjusting these options. It lets me choose how I want to play, and for a single player game that is absolutely the path I think games should head down.

The gameplay that can be created is unique and interesting.

The story, well its great so far. Spoilers for TLOU2:

I've read all the spoilers, and I do think that reading spoilers actually helps me enjoy a good narrative more. IMO, it is impossible to truly spoil a great narrative, since context is so essential. In a recent interview I read, it seemed to imply that Abby is supposed to be disliked at first, and I see that very clearly. Traumatic events, such as holding Ellie down while her adopted father is murdered in front of her is absolutely a traumatic event. ND's goal it seemed was to make someone feel that trauma, and then to give them an alternate perspective in order to allow the user to reflect on their initial reaction to the trauma.

I can't say if ND succeeded in this with me, as I'm just started out as Abby, but I will say this. They have created an unwinnable task for some. Besides the fan love for Joel, what you also have to understand is that trauma they inflicted on Ellie was also inflicted on the player who probably identifies and perhaps even loves Ellie due to the events of the first game AND the fact you currently are playing as Ellie when it all goes down, adding that video game magic which places the player in the shoes of the character they are playing as(more more successfully than other media). I was affected deeply, myself. Everyone reacts differently to things, but for some they may have had trauma in their lives that this brings back to the surface. My point is that they were NEVER going to get everyone, or even most people to forgive Abby outright. Everyone is different and sometimes it is difficult to quickly forgive someone for a trauma they inflicted just because it would work great with the timing of the narrative. Even if forgiving them is logical, and even if forgiving them is the right thing to do, sometimes it can be very hard. However, I will continue to let them try.

I am glad this game was made. As a game, it's really well polished. As a narrative it has a very interesting dichotomy. I am a little disappointed it isn't the game I wanted, but it stands on its own very well. I'm worried about the ending, because if I can't understand Ellie's motivations, if I can't relate to them, then it will feel like the game is leaving me behind too. Ironically, that is how Ellie feels at the end(or so I hear), so we'll see. Perhaps that is even intentional. I'm likely to go up or down a point based on how that ending is presented. So far, I'd give the game a solid 9.

The last thing, I feel very emotional over the loss of Joel, but honestly I think it's a also a great way to generate emotion for the game and the series. However, that doesn't mean I will be okay with every death. We've done the cruel one of the series. Let's change the theme a little bit next time, and let Ellie live. Give her a good ending, please ND. Don't let her die for the good of the world or whatever, let her settle down and enjoy her remaining days. Let them figure out another way to save the world this time. Let this be The Empire Strikes Back, but let TLOU3 be Return of the Jedi. You've taken from us, now give us something back. Ellie needs some hope here.

[Relapses]

Lastly I could care less if anyone gives a game a 6/10. If you give it a 6/10 and make statements that are blatantly false however you think I'm going to take that score serious?

I'd agree if Joe were lying about anything in the video. To me it just sounded like the story did not resonate with him on any level and he judged the game accordingly. A few things may have been exaggerated for comedic effect and I guess I can see some of that being viewed as pandering but I really don't see this "downward trend" you're speaking about with his videos.

[Krastyn]

Nah, I'll be honest. There is nothing subtle in this game at all. The fact that anyone misses vital plot points and meanings is clear evidence they just tried to rush through the game for the clout of getting to say "story sux". Joe is objectively wrong on a few of his points, and they aren't things exactly easy to miss if you're even paying the slightest attention to the game. But he wasn't, he was more worried about what his chat was saying because he lets his community control his "opinions".

Can you elaborate on this?

[ohiostate124]

Can you elaborate on this?

Of course not

[Jastall]

I'd agree if Joe were lying about anything in the video. To me it just sounded like the story did not resonate with him on any level and he judged the game accordingly. A few things may have been exaggerated for comedic effect and I guess I can see some of that being viewed as pandering but I really don't see this "downward trend" you're speaking about with his videos.

I do think Joe is mindful of his audience, and why wouldn't he be since they are his livelihood. But I don't think the phenomenon is bad enough that one has to call it pandering, his opinions do seem to be his own and I believe claiming he only follows the herd without thinking is going too far.

His criticisms that he ended up not caring what happens and that the story is a gamble that doesn't pay off seem fairly commonly echoed, not by everyone of course but by a decent chunk of players, and I can see where they're coming from. There's only so much drama, so much darkness you can cram in a story before the player might ask what the point of it all is. It's not GoT S8 bad for sure, but I do think the story fails to live up to its potential and delivers its message quite clumsily, especially in relation to its gameplay.

[Tech614]

I'd agree if Joe were lying about anything in the video. To me it just sounded like the story did not resonate with him on any level and he judged the game accordingly. A few things may have been exaggerated for comedic effect and I guess I can see some of that being viewed as pandering but I really don't see this "downward trend" you're speaking about with his videos.

Oh yea you're right Joe didn't change.

Joe wasn't the guy defending BF5, getting crucified and losing followers for it and then later made a video shamming the females in it to save face and stop losing his audience.

Oh wait that was him, and ever since then he has never went against his audience's thoughts. Also he uses SJW unironically so if you really take Joe serious in this day and age- then sorry but I don't take you serious. Guy literally became the meme he used to fight against.

And yes, Joe makes blatently false points about the game. "Only females survive" yea not true and plenty of females die. He makes such a big deal about the Danny death "why am I supposed to care" you aren't the only relevance Danny has to the story is Owen killed him. That's it. The game doesn't make a big deal about it at all.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He makes such a big deal about the Danny death "why am I supposed to care" you aren't the only relevance Danny has to the story is Owen killed him. That's it. The game doesn't make a big deal about it at all.

I actually saw that part of his stream and he comply missed the point with Danny in that Abbie doesn’t ask about Danny’s death at all she instantly goes to Owen as he’s the one she cares about. Joe thought they were playing up Danny’s death and then when Abbie said she didn’t care about Danny that it was a useless contradiction because he either wasn’t paying attention (seems to be the case for most of the game) or he was just blind to any nuances because he Was busy being upset about Abbie.

[Rennadrel]

lol...

Gamers need to actually buy some 6/10 games, and see how asinine that kind of 'score' really is.

Some of us actually have, and they were more fun to play than TLOU2.

[Vakir]

If your argument really comes down to you think you know the characters better then their creator and actors who both had a say in how the game played out you don't really have an argument sorry. There is a fine line between saying you don't like something, and saying you know better.

Apparently all of these internet TLOU experts didn't actually know the characters at all like they claim to of. Gamers, imagine gamers telling Cormac McCarthy he didn't know his characters or his writing was bad. Because judging by TLOU2 that would of happened if he wrote games, how hilarious would that be? Who am I kidding gamers probably don't even know that name because the last time they saw a book was in school.

Some of the critical takes on this game are weak as hell, but I'd recommend understanding the concept of Death of the Author. A creator doesn't have exclusive right to how people feel about, read, or conceptualize their creation. They don't even have the right to exclusivity about the message or takeaway a work brings from it, regardless of what the text intends.

There's a lot of outright stupidity out there in some of these takes, in my opinion - like angry people demanding that the only way TLOU2 could possibly take down Joel is to have it be some Logan-esque fanservicefest before he goes down in a blaze of glory. But saying that a creator also knows better fundamentally shits on how works are often interpreted and even how meaning of works change over time.

Cormac McCarthy is a particularly interesting example to use, given the mainstream adaptations (like the Coen Brothers' No Country for Old Men) and the mainstream understanding of those same works as a result strongly gloss over how insanely, radically conservative he is. Like, Anton Chigurh is widely interpreted as McCarthy's batshit perception of liberalism being as in the same purview as nihilism. But people gloss over that when consuming the story because it's far more interesting viewing them as an unstoppable force of nature rather than an accessory to an old author yelling at a fucking cloud about politics left of his own.

Regarding how exactly the inciting incident happens in the first few hours, whether Joel acted "in character" with how we'd perceive it, even after 5 years, is really open to personal interpretation of whether you really buy into it. If you do or don't, your own ability to digest it has nothing to do with how it aligns with or contrasts with how Neil Druckmann or Halley Gross "intended" it.

[everydaygamer]

There's a lot of outright stupidity out there in some of these takes, in my opinion - like angry people demanding that the only way TLOU2 could possibly take down Joel is to have it be some Logan-esque fanservicefest before he goes down in a blaze of glory.

Honestly, after seeing some people's reactions I am kind of tempted to check out some fanfiction to see if people write Joel as if he were some post-apocalyptic Batman as that is the only way he could have reasonably survived that situation.

[Vakir]

Honestly, after seeing some people's reactions I am kind of tempted to check out some fanfiction to see if people write Joel as if he were some post-apocalyptic Batman as that is the only way he could have reasonably survived that situation.

For real. It's super dumb.

For me, there is a middle ground between "This was a flawless masterpiece way to tell this story" and "This is complete shit and clearly Neil Cuckmann hates Joel, even though the game spends hours upon hours reflecting on all the wonderful qualities he had alongside the darkness and selfishness and that's the point of these damn flashbacks."

I feel it was contrived in the way it happened and the awkward square peg round hole execution, but some people are pretty dumb and devoid of empathy. Or reading context.