MMOs like how WoW used to be (not Classic)?

[Witchblade77]

Yeah... doesn't look like there is much in the way that isn't speed runs. I don't get why people think that's good design for a MMORPG. It's totally crazy.

its not the developers that design for speed runs. its the players that demand those unfortunately. even when developers try to slow players down a bit, players just get annoyed and find ways around it whenever possible, or when impossible, just skip the content that doesn't allow them to speed run it.

the only way to get that old school experience is to find other people who are of the same mindset as you are and only play with them. regardless of the game you end up playing.

[Gorsameth]

Are there any MMOs still out there that have the feel of older WoW? Say from Wrath-MOP? Before the whole Diablo 3-esque "speedrunning dungeons at a higher difficulty is content" and borrowed power stuff came along? I keep trying to enjoy WoW (I skipped all of Legion) but the way the game has shifted makes me feel like I was in a coma for 30 years and woke up since it's almost entirely a new game with new focus and design that I don't particularly enjoy. I despise the concept of M+ in an MMORPG, and all their encounters seem to be ramped up to be crazy now that they seemingly design around Mythic and then scale backward. I liked how the game felt before that however. MOP for me was the pinnacle of the design (I even didn't mind WOD from a pure gameplay standpoint) and I feel now that the game has shifted so far from that with its target demographic and the approach people take that it's just not for me anymore; I simply can't enjoy the way the game is being designed but there's no chance it'll shift again.

Do any games like that even exist anymore? I've even tried to play Everquest but that's a bit too primitive with how it plays even with the live game having extra features compared to say Project 1999. Classic WoW didn't scratch the itch with its poor class design and being filled with metagaming and min-maxing from the current WoW mindset bleeding in. I know there are other alternatives (you know what I mean) but I'd try to avoid going that route if I can avoid it. I don't care for the playstyle of games like ESO, so that's out. But something that doesn't have an emphasis on speedrunning "gogogo" mindset for content would be nice (nothing even remotely like M+, basically). I would say not tainted by metagaming/competitive but that's a pipe dream since that will always exist.

Or should I just consider hanging it up since it's clear the MMORPG genre has evolved in a way that no longer caters to me?

WoW was like that because everyone was clueless. No one knew what they were doing and just mucked around.

That situation isn't coming back. The world has moved on, you have moved on.
That is also why I skipped Classic. Because I know that feeling from 15 years ago is gone forever.

[Nobleshield]

WoW was like that because everyone was clueless. No one knew what they were doing and just mucked around.

That situation isn't coming back. The world has moved on, you have moved on.
That is also why I skipped Classic. Because I know that feeling from 15 years ago is gone forever.

I still don't think that speedrunning is something that should be a thing in an online game. It's fine for like speedrunning NES games or whatnot, but I can't stand it in games in the way WoW does it. Not with the emphasis on it like M+ has. That goes far beyond players wanting to 15 minute a Wrath dungeon. That was tolerable, at least.

I still don't get why M+ was so well received. It seems contrary to every RPG design ever to emphasize speed. Rifts in D3 never seemed like people enjoyed them that much. But all of a sudden M+ is the best thing since sliced bread when not many people did CMs before it, and suddenly everyone is okay with "gogogo" when it was considered toxic and harmful to the game earlier.

[Wildmoon]

I still don't think that speedrunning is something that should be a thing in an online game. It's fine for like speedrunning NES games or whatnot, but I can't stand it in games in the way WoW does it. Not with the emphasis on it like M+ has. That goes far beyond players wanting to 15 minute a Wrath dungeon. That was tolerable, at least.

I still don't get why M+ was so well received. It seems contrary to every RPG design ever to emphasize speed. Rifts in D3 never seemed like people enjoyed them that much. But all of a sudden M+ is the best thing since sliced bread when not many people did CMs before it, and suddenly everyone is okay with "gogogo" when it was considered toxic and harmful to the game earlier.

Mythic+ is great because it brings new dimensions to play and utilize the classes in a way that was not too prevalent before. I never felt like I had to squeeze every bit of my class in dungeons before M+. M+ makes classes feel more of its "hybridity" than even vanilla WoW. The individuality of responsibility can also be a lot of fun. I don't like the timer either but I wouldn't exactly call M+ speedrunning.

[Aresk]

its not the developers that design for speed runs. its the players that demand those unfortunately. even when developers try to slow players down a bit, players just get annoyed and find ways around it whenever possible, or when impossible, just skip the content that doesn't allow them to speed run it.

the only way to get that old school experience is to find other people who are of the same mindset as you are and only play with them. regardless of the game you end up playing.

For non-timed content, that's true, but challenge modes and their M+ iteration were always designed, by the developers, to be time based. If one has as much time as possible, you could Blood Lust/Heroism/Timewarp every pull. Cooldowns become meaningless from one encounter to the next, because you can just sit there and wait for them to come back. Considering the leaderboard implementation and wanting to differentiate degrees of success, time as a metric was the implementation that the devs opted to use.

[Witchblade77]

For non-timed content, that's true, but challenge modes and their M+ iteration were always designed, by the developers, to be time based. If one has as much time as possible, you could Blood Lust/Heroism/Timewarp every pull. Cooldowns become meaningless from one encounter to the next, because you can just sit there and wait for them to come back. Considering the leaderboard implementation and wanting to differentiate degrees of success, time as a metric was the implementation that the devs opted to use.

ok, I stand corrected, some of the content is designed for timed runs. but its not because that's what developers decided to push on people but rather because that's what players wanted. people were already speedrunning all things. Blizzard simply caught onto the trend and implemented it. but you don't HAVE to hit those leaderboards. you don't HAVE to run as quickly as possible. I mean... so much detail is put into content, into environments, mobs design you name it. STILL. THAT is done for people who chose not to rush. but... you have to find those PEOPLE to play with. hopping from game to game is not going to do that, cause players speed run EVERYTHING. including single player games.

edited to add. and I reiterate. gogogo mentality? that started way WAY before mythic + was introduced. I was tempted to say that it started with group finder, but... I distinctly remember not only people speed running back in BC, but several dungeons requiring speedy completion. Shattered halls comes to mind with rescue of the people being executed. as well as eventualy Zul Aman and its original mount.

[Nobleshield]

ok, I stand corrected, some of the content is designed for timed runs. but its not because that's what developers decided to push on people but rather because that's what players wanted. people were already speedrunning all things. Blizzard simply caught onto the trend and implemented it. but you don't HAVE to hit those leaderboards. you don't HAVE to run as quickly as possible. I mean... so much detail is put into content, into environments, mobs design you name it. STILL. THAT is done for people who chose not to rush. but... you have to find those PEOPLE to play with. hopping from game to game is not going to do that, cause players speed run EVERYTHING. including single player games.

edited to add. and I reiterate. gogogo mentality? that started way WAY before mythic + was introduced. I was tempted to say that it started with group finder, but... I distinctly remember not only people speed running back in BC, but several dungeons requiring speedy completion. Shattered halls comes to mind with rescue of the people being executed. as well as eventualy Zul Aman and its original mount.

Gogogo was largely considered to be bad though and detrimental. People complained about it nonstop in Wrath as I recall. Sure you had things like ZA bear run or Culling run, but those were optional bonuses, not focuses of the content. I think that's my issue with M+. People make it out to be all about speed and shortcuts and other sort of "speedrunning" concepts (just like how in a TAS of a video game there's skips and exploits and whatnot to speed it up.), even though you technically don't need to beat the timer, everyone focuses on the timer. Even Challenge Mode was acceptable because it wasn't being pitched as content, just something on the side for people who wanted to do it (and yeah yeah you don't have to do M+. But the game is being designed around it as a feature, not an extra like CMs were). The whole idea just runs contrary to everything I think of when I think of an MMORPG and I have yet to find anything that feels like an actual MMORPG without that sort of influence again.

[Witchblade77]

Gogogo was largely considered to be bad though and detrimental. People complained about it nonstop in Wrath as I recall. Sure you had things like ZA bear run or Culling run, but those were optional bonuses, not focuses of the content. I think that's my issue with M+. People make it out to be all about speed and shortcuts and other sort of "speedrunning" concepts (just like how in a TAS of a video game there's skips and exploits and whatnot to speed it up.), even though you technically don't need to beat the timer, everyone focuses on the timer. Even Challenge Mode was acceptable because it wasn't being pitched as content, just something on the side for people who wanted to do it (and yeah yeah you don't have to do M+. But the game is being designed around it as a feature, not an extra like CMs were). The whole idea just runs contrary to everything I think of when I think of an MMORPG and I have yet to find anything that feels like an actual MMORPG without that sort of influence again.

maybe they were looked down on by some. but I also remember experiences that go way WAY back where people insisted on shortcut and higher speed and all that jazz. honestly, the only time I remember WoW not being all gogogo was when i was still leveling mid BC and doing leveling dungeons. granted. I haven't played in vanilla, but.... it just seems that mentality of players just started shifting to faster, FASTER. possibly cause players themselves started to get older and had less free time.

again, my experience, but if you want to take your time... gotta find people who also take their time. regardless of the game.

[PACOX]

As a GW2 player I don't think GW2 is your thing unless you are actually looking for something different.

FFXIV is right up WoWs alley. I think you should wait until they revamp (squish) the base game content, if they haven't done so yet.

[Doffen]

Go go go started for real in WotLK. To say you want a game like WoW was from WotLK to MoP and the later expansions are crap even though its the same thing is just odd. Dungeons and scenarios were go go aoe pulls just like now. Mythic+ just make stuff relevant all the time.

Saying that, if you want something a bit slower FFXIV is something I like and just started with. Tried GW2 but felt a bit off for me.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Are there any MMOs still out there that have the feel of older WoW? Say from Wrath-MOP? Before the whole Diablo 3-esque "speedrunning dungeons at a higher difficulty is content" and borrowed power stuff came along? I keep trying to enjoy WoW (I skipped all of Legion) but the way the game has shifted makes me feel like I was in a coma for 30 years and woke up since it's almost entirely a new game with new focus and design that I don't particularly enjoy. I despise the concept of M+ in an MMORPG, and all their encounters seem to be ramped up to be crazy now that they seemingly design around Mythic and then scale backward. I liked how the game felt before that however. MOP for me was the pinnacle of the design (I even didn't mind WOD from a pure gameplay standpoint) and I feel now that the game has shifted so far from that with its target demographic and the approach people take that it's just not for me anymore; I simply can't enjoy the way the game is being designed but there's no chance it'll shift again.

Do any games like that even exist anymore? I've even tried to play Everquest but that's a bit too primitive with how it plays even with the live game having extra features compared to say Project 1999. Classic WoW didn't scratch the itch with its poor class design and being filled with metagaming and min-maxing from the current WoW mindset bleeding in. I know there are other alternatives (you know what I mean) but I'd try to avoid going that route if I can avoid it. I don't care for the playstyle of games like ESO, so that's out. But something that doesn't have an emphasis on speedrunning "gogogo" mindset for content would be nice (nothing even remotely like M+, basically). I would say not tainted by metagaming/competitive but that's a pipe dream since that will always exist.

Or should I just consider hanging it up since it's clear the MMORPG genre has evolved in a way that no longer caters to me?

Retail is still basically the same game as WotLK, with new raids and different class designs. The raids in general have been vast improvments over their WotLK counteparts, and every single spec (from every expansion after) is better and more fun to play than their WotLK counterparts. MM Hunters, Holy Paladins and Ret Paladins being the 3 exceptions, as the 3 specs in the game that were at their best designed in WotLK. My Hunter and Paladin, which used to be my two "main alts" have been relegated to characters I barely play these days, because everytime I try, I always think "this is still a lot worse than the WotLK classdesign", and then log over to my Warlock or Warrior alts instead.

The only two expansions that aren't based on the WotLK model, are Classic and TBC. The addition of M+ is just that, an addition. It doesn't change the fact that everyting else is still a direct copy of WotLK game systems, with minor changes here and there.


The biggest difference is the reward structure. However, that's apparently about to change aswell, with Shadowlands adopting a loot and reward system that's looking a lot like we're back in WotLK/Cata again. At least much more so than any of the retarded Titanforge shenanigans from late MoP-BFA.

[Nobleshield]

Maybe, I just want to get away from the obvious D3 inspired design they brought in. Which mainly means M+ because for the life of me I can't see how that's enjoyable unless you're a "everything has to be super competitive so I can show how leet sauce I am" people or enjoy speedrunning (the timer is my main problem because it's the focus, not finishing. Despite everyone always replying the timer is an added bonus it doesn't work that way in practice and the timer is the goal).

Maybe I just don't "get" it since I skipped Legion entirely and didn't like greater rifts in D3 (again because it was timed), and even normal rifts were obnoxiously tedious because it was the same thing over and over and over but oh do it on Hard, now do it on Torment, now Torment 2, etc. which seems to be where they got the idea for M+. Joined a guild now and they do them frequently but I don't understand them personally. Did one M0 and we blew through it so I have a keystone now sitting untouched in my bags.

At this point considering just screwing around until Shadowlands so it's a fresh start and I can start doing them early. Anyway getting off topic so...

I have done some FFXIV on the free trial up to like level 30 and it's not bad but not sure if it's something long-term. It has a strange feeling still that I can't quite place. Visually impressive though so it could be my best option it seems. People still rush but unlike WoW they're more willing to slow down rather than just go "make your own group".

[Fkiolaris]

Retail is still basically the same game as WotLK, with new raids and different class designs. The raids in general have been vast improvments over their WotLK counteparts, and every single spec (from every expansion after) is better and more fun to play than their WotLK counterparts.

While there have been some great raids since WotLK, I think you will find that for many players the class design of BFA is completely pants and worse than WotLK.

[Cæli]

there's no other game to be honest, especially with this art style, there's many wow clones but they're all an inferior copy, but maybe early mmos are worth to be looked at (EQ, DaoC, anarchy online, etc). still very different, the different wow expansions are the games like "wow"

[Jamie081]

Maybe I just don't "get" it since I skipped Legion entirely and didn't like greater rifts in D3 (again because it was timed), and even normal rifts were obnoxiously tedious because it was the same thing over and over and over but oh do it on Hard, now do it on Torment, now Torment 2, etc. which seems to be where they got the idea for M+. Joined a guild now and they do them frequently but I don't understand them personally. Did one M0 and we blew through it so I have a keystone now sitting untouched in my bags.

I think you're definitely overestimating the importance of the timer for M+.

I can't remember the last time I paid attention to the timer, and I only run 15/16s once or twice a week for the weekly chest. It would make sense if the timers were tight but they never are until you get to much higher keys. Most don't bother because higher keys are where the timer and strategies matter, but the gear upgrade doesn't go higher than ilvl 475 at 15+.

I also know a few people who have never set foot in M+ and just raid weekly too. It's really not that important. It's just popular because it's a great feature and easier to get gear from compared to raids.

As for MMOs similar to WoW, you'll probably never get one that scratches the same itch WoW does. FFXIV probably comes close, but you have to like the cringey anime/weeb theme.
GW2 isn't different to WoW like its players love saying. It's just a WoW copy with cool mounts and a massive focus on story while all other game aspects you'd consider standard for an MMO are left to rot.

[Rogalicus]

GW2 isn't different to WoW like its players love saying. It's just a WoW copy with cool mounts and a massive focus on story while all other game aspects you'd consider standard for an MMO are left to rot.

• Action combat instead of tab-targeting
• Limited skillbar with half of it tied to specific weapons instead of just skill book
• Unified short buff and short debuff system coupled with combo fields and combo finishers as a combat basis instead of skills just dealing damage
• No level cap increase or ilvl raise for 7 years instead of infinite gear grind
• Focus on open world events instead of instances
• At level cap all the world you can have a proper experience in every zone instead of being funneled into few endgame zones with an option to oneshot lower level shit for no reason

So what exactly makes it WoW clone?

[Nobleshield]

I would immediately say.....isn't the stuff that WoW took their inspiration from what you want? Like EQ and Runescape or so?

EQ is too far in the other direction. I've tried to play EQ both live and Project 1999 and even if I can get past the god awful UI the fact its content is finding a camp and sitting there killing mobs, waiting for them to respawn, killing them again rinse and repeat for hours is a bit too monotonous.

I think you're definitely overestimating the importance of the timer for M+.

I can't remember the last time I paid attention to the timer, and I only run 15/16s once or twice a week for the weekly chest. It would make sense if the timers were tight but they never are until you get to much higher keys. Most don't bother because higher keys are where the timer and strategies matter, but the gear upgrade doesn't go higher than ilvl 475 at 15+.

Wait so even a +15 the timer isn't such a huge deal (assuming you don't constantly mess up of course)? Because like everything i see when people talk about M+ is over the timer, how the timer is the most important thing, how you need to skip X and skirt around Y and all this stuff that's bordering on exploits and unintended gameplay and gogogo the clock is ticking. So it makes me equate it with people only caring about the timer because that's all they talk about.

[Donatello Trumpi]

Only other mmos worth playing atm are FFXIV and ESO.
maybe Guild Wars 2 if thats your type of game.

[EllieNora]

FFXIV. Like WoW it has over the past two expansions started edging closer to waords being "modernized" but because of how the endgame content is designed, can't see it ever getting as basic as WoW. Like materia melding is so integral to the FF franchise they wouldn't give it the WoW gemming treatment, but like we did lose our version of attribute points where you'd level up and could pick stats to put an extra point in. We did lose our version of hit rating and got another stupid secondary in return that isn't massively unlike Crit and all that's changed is like the loss of hit rating, we no longer account for trying to meet this cap along with other soft breakpoints. But the only people who didn't even meet the old cap for accuracy in the first place were Healers, since their gear did not have the stat lol.

But otherwise, still an exceptional MMO to play. The PvP is concernfroge though.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

While there have been some great raids since WotLK, I think you will find that for many players the class design of BFA is completely pants and worse than WotLK.

Was talking about the general direction of WoW since WotLK, not just BFA specificly. And no, WotLK didn't really have good class design. Proper class design started in Cata and ended in Legion.

Most WotLK specs were just more clunky and less functional versions of their Cata iterations. The 3 exceptions are Holy Paladin, Ret Paladin and MM Hunter, the 3 specs that were basically perfect in WotLK, and Blizzard haven't managed to do anything close to that since. WotLK was a huge improvement from TBC for sure, but it still had a lot of random shit in the classes that just didn't work and simply didn't make sense.


BFA classdesign is dogshit compared to what we had from Cata - Legion, but it's still a LOT better than Classic/TBC, and most specs (with their borrowed powers obv) are still better than WotLK.