Do people actually believe that RPG means story and cosmetic only?

[Echocho]

Watching the Preach interview with Ion I find it baffling that the high end community seem to believe that RPGs are only about the story and how you look. Building your character doesn't even seem to factor into it at all for those people.

For me (and a lot of other people I would assume) the most important part of any RPG is to build your character and I haven't played a lot of them where you completely change your entire play style every 5 minutes. A lot of RPGs give you the ability to respec sure but it's at least cumbersome and at the most a pretty lengthy process. In some RPGs starting over and trying out a different build even adds longevity to the game.

I don't understand why they keep on ignoring that part and have gotten it into their heads that not being able to change absolutely everything on the fly is anti RPG.

[callipygoustp]

I don't but having read various forums on the internet, I am absolutely positive some people do.

[Arawrabearialis]

Story IS and always has been the most important part of an RPG. Character development should be part of that.

[NineSpine]

Because we have a lot of delusional narcissists that think copying icy veins and getting a server third mythic kill makes them esports gods.

[Echocho]

I don't but having read various forums on the internet, I am absolutely positive some people do.

Yeah that much is obvious. The question is if they're serious or if it's some sort of hyperbolic lie

[callipygoustp]

Yeah that much is obvious. The question is if they're serious or if it's some sort of hyperbolic lie

The answer to your question is quite obvious: Of course some of them are serious.

[Sunslayer]

Lets just lay this out as it truly is...this is WoW. This isn't D&D this isn't other RPGs. The WoW Community has become what it is and that's just it. "It is what it is". If you aren't leading your own group you are putting yourself up for another's judgement and no amount of pretending that isn't a thing will change anything.

[Malikath]

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Text-book straw-manning and false equivalency.
Your argument isn't one ANYONE is making, and is instead attempting to deride the effective means of allowing player choice to determine which covenant players will be able to pick regardless of their activities.
Second, you falsely assert that ONLY power makes an RPG choice, when many of the more famous RPG choices have little to NOTHING to do with the power of said RPG's combat.

[Spacewalrus2010]

Text-book straw-manning and false equivalency.
Your argument isn't one ANYONE is making, and is instead attempting to deride the effective means of allowing player choice to determine which covenant players will be able to pick regardless of their activities.

There are definitely people making the argument OP is presenting. Just because you haven't met those people, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Second, you falsely assert that ONLY power makes an RPG choice, when many of the more famous RPG choices have little to NOTHING to do with the power of said RPG's combat.

He didn't assert that.

There seems to be some really strong sense of irony.

[Krakan]

I mean the grand,grand ,grand majority of rpgs are just story and cosmetics. It is actually really rare a rpg seals of one aspect or another via choice. There are notable examples of course but other all it is much more rare then not for gameplay and story to be seperate at every stage.

[melzas]

Freedom of character building with multiple meaningful choices only works in single player games. WoW Devs learned it over the years, even if you make balancing changes every so often, in the environment with other people around competing with you, players will always go for optimal choices rather than fun ones.

That's why they got rid of old talent trees. They gave you a choice of how to create your character, which would be great in single player game, but it's a mmo where people will quickly judge you by your choices and demand optimal builds, not fun builds.

[Malikath]

He didn't assert that.

He actually did, by implying that cosmetics and story aren't adequate as a "RPG choice" it is asserted that it is conversely true that the only choices that constitute a "RPG choice" are those relevant to player power.
But, try again.

[Ezyah]

The real question is why people still believe mmorpg are rpg ? They shoul rename it MMOpewpew and then we would be done with this meaningful choices crap.

[Krakan]

I mean the grand,grand ,grand majority of rpgs are just story and cosmetics. It is actually really rare a rpg seals of one aspect or another via choice. There are notable examples of course but other all it is much more rare then not for gameplay and story to be seperate at every stage.

[owbu]

I think this is a case of internet arguing. Ion said wow is an RPG therefore it has to have permanent choices.
Therefore some people, who don't like permanent choices, argue that wow is not an RPG or that RPGs are not about choices.
You can believe whatever is currently convenient to you, if noone is there to keep track of your opinions and throw them back into your face later.

[NatePsy]

All I'm getting from the responses to the "meaningful choices" comment is that people are playing the wrong game entirely. Get over it, it's a ROLE-playing game. Every choice you make in an RPG has impact and they're designing the Covenants with that intent foremost. Wanna play a game where it's all about performance? Go play Wildstar, oh wait... It flopped because of that very reason. :')

[Malikath]

[QUOTE=owbu;52507156]
Except, he didn't, and the choices aren't permanent.
So stop lying.

[Dakara]

All I'm getting from the responses to the "meaningful choices" comment is that people are playing the wrong game entirely. Get over it, it's a ROLE-playing game. Every choice you make in an RPG has impact and they're designing the Covenants with that intent foremost. Wanna play a game where it's all about performance? Go play Wildstar, oh wait... It flopped because of that very reason. :')

Skyrim in an RPG. WOW is an MMORPG with Esport events. I don't like it, but lets not pretend otherwise. Because of things like MDI, Blizzard have hamstrung themselves when it comes to the RPG elements of WOW and "meaningful choice".

What annoys me with Covenants is not the numerical difference in abilities, it's that blizzard have bundled them all into one singular choice. If Covenants actually gave us a variety of abilities to choose from, we would have some flexibility between specs and modes of gameplay.

However, by giving a single ability which attempts (and often fails) to be useful across all specs within a class and then bundling it together with Transmog, Mounts and RP elements, we find ourselves torn between what we want and what we want to avoid.

I can only speak for myself personally, and I'm not a Mythic raider, but at the moment I'm torn between the Aesthetics of the Covenant I like and the abilities that look fun and engaging. Unfortunately, they don't belong to the same covenants so do I avoid the abilities I dislike and focus on the Aesthetics? Or do I sacrifice aesthetics for the better gameplay?

I haven't decided yet as it seems Ion is eager to work on the Covenant abilities and avoid players like they've had to make a sacrifice, but I'm not so sure he'll achieve it.

If Blizzard removed the class specific abilities from the Covenants and left everything else untouched, I'd be 100% behind them and their meaningful choice. Or (preferably), they expand on the class-specific abilities and give us options within our Covenant choice via an extra talent row (i.e. 3 talents per covenant) to allow for more spec flexibility and varied gameplay.

[Spacewalrus2010]

He actually did, by implying that cosmetics and story aren't adequate as a "RPG choice" it is asserted that it is conversely true that the only choices that constitute a "RPG choice" are those relevant to player power.
But, try again.

First off, implying something is not the same thing as asserting it.

Second, not sure how you got him implying that cosmetics and story aren't RPG choices. The only thing relevant to your statement even a little was that he believes power is the most important. Not the only important thing.

But hey, try again...?

[ShadowOfThePast]

Skyrim in an RPG. WOW is an MMORPG with Esport events. I don't like it, but lets not pretend otherwise. Because of things like MDI, Blizzard have hamstrung themselves when it comes to the RPG elements of WOW and "meaningful choice".

What annoys me with Covenants is not the numerical difference in abilities, it's that blizzard have bundled them all into one singular choice. If Covenants actually gave us a variety of abilities to choose from, we would have some flexibility between specs and modes of gameplay.

However, by giving a single ability which attempts (and often fails) to be useful across all specs within a class and then bundling it together with Transmog, Mounts and RP elements, we find ourselves torn between what we want and what we want to avoid.

I can only speak for myself personally, and I'm not a Mythic raider, but at the moment I'm torn between the Aesthetics of the Covenant I like and the abilities that look fun and engaging. Unfortunately, they don't belong to the same covenants so do I avoid the abilities I dislike and focus on the Aesthetics? Or do I sacrifice aesthetics for the better gameplay?

I haven't decided yet as it seems Ion is eager to work on the Covenant abilities and avoid players like they've had to make a sacrifice, but I'm not so sure he'll achieve it.

If Blizzard removed the class specific abilities from the Covenants and left everything else untouched, I'd be 100% behind them and their meaningful choice. Or (preferably), they expand on the class-specific abilities and give us options within our Covenant choice via an extra talent row (i.e. 3 talents per covenant) to allow for more spec flexibility and varied gameplay.

Could not have said it better myself! This is exactly how I feel about the whole covenant system atm. Was super excited about the Venthyr back t-mogs for my rogue (the blades) but when I learned about the ability rogues get from them was super disappointed (atleast for the current design). The zone seems like it would also be my favorite one aesthetically.

On my warlock I kinda have the opposite problem being torn between covenants not only because of the transmogs etc but also the spells because I like to play destro/affliction and depending which one I choose the optimal covenants are not the same.. and don't even get me started on what a shi*show the conduits will be between changing specs too...