SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[LazarusLong]

Well he is ancient and it seems all troll tribes worship him, so it's not unlikely that he was, indeed, a Dark Troll. Though regarding his size, he can change that at will so that's just magic.

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The Zandalari was a tribe, just like the Amani, Farakki or Gurubashi. They weren't the progenitors of the troll race. "The lesser tribes built small encampments on Zandalar's slopes, but the most powerful tribe, the Zandalari, claimed the highest peaks and plateaus"
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Troll#Trai...haracteristics

Actually, they've settled around Uldir. Zul'Nazman was the ancient capital.

[Venziir]

Actually, they've settled around Uldir. Zul'Nazman was the ancient capital.

That was before Dazar lead his tribe out of the swamp though and united the tribes, supposedly "creating" the original Zandalari tribe. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dazar

[Syegfryed]

Not really, it would make him a Dark Troll - and if his presumed evolution took him further down the Troll path as opposed to deviating into the Night Elven path he'd be further distant, not closer. Ik'nal doesn't look anything like a Night Elf herself, after all.

the night elves are already connected to the dark troll by lineage, him being a dark troll would directly connect him to then, even more than others trolls, he being a zandalari would make way more sense lore-wise even by chronology.

make no sense for a dark troll raise to a loa and be worshiped by the Zandalari by example, if the zandalari worshiped him he was from then or before then

Much of the lore also implies that the Night Elves actually aren't Dark Trolls but are evolved Zandalari themselves - although we don't really know for sure. There is the epithet used in Shadows of the Horde where the Zandalari are referred to as "the Elves of the Trolls" (much to their collective chagrin).

there is literally nothing to implies that, they can't be zandalari evolved, that would be a mockery to the troll race and its already established that they were dark trolls who mutated by the well of eternity

Dark trolls were also just forest trolls

They are referred as "the elves of trolls" because they stand straight and are, pretty much like elves, egocentric and arrogant

[Aucald]

That was before Dazar lead his tribe out of the swamp though and united the tribes, supposedly "creating" the original Zandalari tribe. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dazar

I liked Dazar and it would be interesting to see more of him. He takes no shit from Zul when raised against his will, and makes it pretty obvious that he sees right through Zul's charade.

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the night elves are already connected to the dark troll by lineage, him being a dark troll would directly connect him to then, even more tahn others trolls, he being a zandalari would make way more sense lore-wise even by chrnology.

Not really, we have no idea what era Bwonsamdi comes from - he may predate the Zandalari and the ancient Empire of Zul entirely.

there is literally nothing to implies that, they can't be zandalari evolved, that would be a mockery to the troll race and its already established that they were dark trolls who mutated by the well of eternity

Dark trolls were also just forest trolls

They are referred as "the eles of trolls" because they stand straight and are, pretty much like elves, egocentric and arrogant

That sounds less like a statement of canon and more your fervent wishes for the Trolls to be even more removed from the Night Elves due to your dislike of Elves. Chronicle Vol. 1 is pretty conclusive on the Dark Troll origin of Night Elves, though. I couldn't remember if Chronicle was the source that just said "nocturnal humanoids" or if it explicitly said Dark Trolls, but it's the latter.

[Syegfryed]

The Zandalari was a tribe, just like the Amani, Farakki or Gurubashi. They weren't the progenitors of the troll race. "The lesser tribes built small encampments on Zandalar's slopes, but the most powerful tribe, the Zandalari, claimed the highest peaks and plateaus"
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Troll#Trai...haracteristics

as far i remember all the troll empires came from the zandalari and they mutate over time, i don't know if that was retconed, but the trolls before the rise of the zandalari empire would most likely be equal of the zandalari, even the small tribe that bwosandi came

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Not really, we have no idea what era Bwonsamdi comes from - he may predate the Zandalari and the ancient Empire of Zul entirely.

for sure he can, but he can't come from the dark trolls, there is a big chronology problem in that suposition

That sounds less like a statement of canon and more your fervent wishes for the Trolls to be even more removed from the Night Elves due to your dislike of Elves. Chronicle Vol. 1 is pretty conclusive on the Dark Troll origin of Night Elves, though. I couldn't remember if Chronicle was the source that just said "nocturnal humanoids" or if it explicitly said Dark Trolls, but it's the latter.

it is straight up canon in chronicles volume 1 that night elves came from the dark trolls that were around the well of eternity, i don't know what in my statement is "my fervent wishes"

[Aucald]

for sure he can, but he can't come from the dark trolls, there is a big chronology problem in that suposition

Why not? We've no idea how the long Dark Trolls existed as Trolls before they became Night Elves, and we know they didn't *all* become Night Elves as well, because Speaker Ik'nal is a Dark Troll whose tribe persisted until the Twilight's Hammer wiped them out (which happened well after the collapse of the Empire of Zul and the Sundering).

it is straight up canon in chronicles volume 1 that night elves came from the dark trolls that were around the well of eternity, i don't know what in my statement is "my fervent wished"

That is what I said, yes. Chronicle Vol. 1 is conclusive on the Night Elves being former Dark Trolls. As for your fervent wishes it came from your projection about "[...] that would be a mockery to the troll race." That's your opinion.

[Syegfryed]

Why not? We've no idea how the long Dark Trolls existed as Trolls before they became Night Elves, and we know they didn't *all* become Night Elves as well, because Speaker Ik'nal is a Dark Troll whose tribe persisted until the Twilight's Hammer wiped them out (which happened well after the collapse of the Empire of Zul and the Sundering).

Because the Zandalari also worship him, and he said himself he predate the trolls, of course you can argue he is lying but it make zero sense for a Zandalari or even other troll tribes to worship a dark troll who raise to loa, when the dark trolls themselves were insignificant compared to the other empires who arose first

And if they did not retconed yet, the other empires came from the zandalari, even if not, the trolls races broke off too, the jungle trolls gave "birth" to the sand trolls the forest trolls gave "birth" to the dark trolls.

That is what I said, yes. Chronicle Vol. 1 is conclusive on the Night Elves being former Dark Trolls. As for your fervent wishes it came from your projection about "[...] that would be a mockery to the troll race." That's your opinion.

making elves evolved zandalari - the ones who should be the most important and the top trolls - essentially you want the elves to be "better trolls" in that scenario, so yes, is demeaning and a mockery to the troll race

[Aucald]

Because the Zandalari also worship him, and he said himself he predate the trolls, of course you can argue he is lying but it make zero sense for a Zandalari or even other troll tribes to worship a dark troll who raise to loa, when the dark trolls themselves were insignificant compared to the other empires who arose first

We know very little of the history of the Trolls before the Zandalari came into preeminence and founded the Empire of Zul, and the Zandalari don't seem to have an issue worshiping non-Troll loa, so why would they cast aspersions on a non-Zandalari who nonetheless ascended to the ranks of the loa? Look at how well Vol'jin is regarded by the Zandalari, after all; there's a precedent for this in the lore.

And if they did not retconed yet, the other empires came from the zandalari, even if not, the trolls races broke off too, the jungle trolls gave "birth" to the sand trolls the forest trolls gave "birth" to the dark trolls.

The Dark Trolls are actually purported to be of the original Zandalari extraction who nonetheless splintered off and settled in the cave networks under Mount Hyjal, and that "they hated the daylight and only emerged from their caverns at night. In time, these nocturnal habits turned their blue skin into hues of gray." Forest Trolls have green skin, and so wouldn't seem to be the source of Dark Trolls.

making elves evolved zandalari - the ones who should be the most important and the top trolls - essentially you want the elves to be "better trolls" in that scenario, so yes, is demeaning and a mockery to the troll race

The assumption is that the Night Elves gained their posture and sense of grandeur from their Zandalari roots, as these are traits the Zandalari and Kaldorei tend to share. That's not really a mockery at all, it simply is what it is. From their more direct Dark Troll lineage, they acquired their oneness with the land (a trait the Dark Trolls are believed to have cultivated) and their tendency towards xenophobia, not to mention their nocturnal proclivity.

[Nathreim]

lol, old gods are such jobbers now
they went from "incomprehensible gods of madness and power" to "parasitic flashbag tumors", who a single empowered mortal can kill

N'zoth got it the worst, my man went from:

"N’zoth is still lurking. The Titans couldn’t defeat it… maybe someday we’ll get our chance? Don’t expect to hear anything about him in Pandaria, though!" (MoP interview from Dave Kosak)
to
"Ever the weakest of his own kind" (Azshara BfA)

The Titans always had defeated the Old Gods. The reason he could do as much as he could is because the Prisons were damaged by the Sundering. His was closest to the well so his prison was the most damaged and thus he had the widest reach with his whispers.

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But Teldrassil wasn't a military target. It was part of Slyvannas plan to feed more souls into the Maw...

Although I get where you coming from not to compare real life, his original point still stands where it makes perfect sense for Tyrande to and Co to behave the way they do, their entire way of living was stripped from them and a bulk of the Night Elves needlessly died. We can't expect her to be happy and calm.

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why isn't Kel in his human form? kinda weird he went to the afterlife and stayed as undead?

He didn't really die. Killing a Lich just sends them to their Phylactery where a new body reforms around the soul. He traveled to the Shadowlands on his own after his defeat in Wrath. So even if we kill him again in Shadowlands unless we destroy the phylactery he will just return later on.

[Aucald]

The Titans always had defeated the Old Gods. The reason he could do as much as he could is because the Prisons were damaged by the Sundering. His was closest to the well so his prison was the most damaged and thus he had the widest reach with his whispers.

Eh, prior to the Chronicle the power of the Old Gods was a lot more nebulous than it is now. Before that, the Old Gods were so powerful and had engineered such a stranglehold upon Azeroth that the Titans couldn't kill them without killing their host-world in the process, and in the War of the Ancients trilogy Krasus implied that if the Old Gods were to be freed from their prisons that Sargeras himself would quail in terror of their power. But in Chronicle Vol. 1 we discover that while the Old Gods had indeed managed to insinuate themselves deep enough into Azeroth to make their removal a burden, their relative power level was nothing next to a Titan, with Aman'thul reaching down bodily to pluck the bulk of Y'Shaarj from the surface of Azeroth the same way you or I might pick up a largish insect from the ground. Needless to say, the Old Gods were rendered far less of a threat than Krasus implied they would be - and Sargeras would have no issue contending with them if he didn't care about Azeroth's potential well-being.

[Kyphael]

Garrosh should've had Draka's role in Maldraxxus. We as players have absolutely no connection to Draka and she's barely a footnote in extended Warcraft lore. Having Garrosh as our rep would've put Maldraxxus on with other covenants in terms of interesting characters.

Agree with this so much. I'm thinking they're saving Garrosh for a later role in the expansion cycle (they have at least two major patches to fill content with after launch) but if they had featured him in Maldraxxus, he wouldn't have needed to be added later in the story and could have focused on someone else. And heavily agree that Draka is just not that important at all, or interesting.

[Timester]

I hope Kel'thuzad is there to try and find Arthas's soul and bring him back as the Lich King again to rule with the power of Maldraxxus. I don't want Kel'thuzad's schemes to be about power for himself for its own sake. He never struck me as the power-hungry sort. He seemed genuinely loyal to Arthas, even before he became the Lich King, when he was merely a death knight king of Lordaeron. Maybe he planned to help Arthas later but didn't expect his plan at Icecrown to fail, so instead he decided to be a contingency and he chose to go to the Shadowlands, manipulate the Maldraxxi to claim their power, use that power to get Arthas out of the Maw, reinstate him as the Lich King, and give all the power of the Maldraxxi over to him for a much more powerful super Scourge.

I also hope Dar'Khan Drathir makes an appearance as a lieutenant of Kel'thuzad.

Kel'Thuzad is loyal to Death and only Death. Not Arthas, not the Lich King, not the Jailer. Death.

[Nathreim]

Agree with this so much. I'm thinking they're saving Garrosh for a later role in the expansion cycle (they have at least two major patches to fill content with after launch) but if they had featured him in Maldraxxus, he wouldn't have needed to be added later in the story and could have focused on someone else. And heavily agree that Draka is just not that important at all, or interesting.

I kinda hope we see the lands that Orc and Tauren Ancestors go too like the Timeless Isles or something. Gul'dan can be the main villain of the zone.

[Timester]

I think you mis-use the word manipulated

Actually, I used the literal meaning of "manipulated", because Kel'Thuzad was a ghost and used Arthas as his "arms" to revive again.

[Nagawithlegs]

Can confirm that Mamtoth has a pod in Ardenweald so his permanent death has been written out. Shadra does too so they likely have just taken the stance that "wild god permadeath" outside of Ardenweald doesn't make sense (and it's stated that if someone drains out the anima of a wild god's pod in Ardenweald it does permakill them).

What's interesting is that they confirm that Hakkar is in fact a loa, when it was kind of ambiguous as to what exact manner of creature he was. There was some speculation that he was some kind of Old God-type creature that was sent to multiple worlds (hence the snake monster on Draenor that cursed the Arrakoa and resembles him) but now it seems unlikely as he has a pod the same way all the other wild gods do.

[Aucald]

What's interesting is that they confirm that Hakkar is in fact a loa, when it was kind of ambiguous as to what exact manner of creature he was. There was some speculation that he was some kind of Old God-type creature that was sent to multiple worlds (hence the snake monster on Draenor that cursed the Arrakoa and resembles him) but now it seems unlikely as he has a pod the same way all the other wild gods do.

The term "loa" itself isn't really a taxonomy, either. Among the loa there are a wide variety of different creatures - from Wild Gods to enhanced mortal spirits to ghosts (Night Elven Wisps are considered be loa by some Trolls). While this confirms Hakkar was indeed among the pantheon of Troll loa, we still don't know what he actually is. I always assumed he was a Wild God, just one that happened to be malevolent. The interesting thing about Hakkar was that he was specifically summoned to Azeroth from somewhere else, and may well not be native to Azeroth at all. This is buttressed by the fact that the Titans had no record of such a being, and his origin beyond his summoning by the ancient Trolls is unaccounted for in the Chronicle.

[Nagawithlegs]

The term "loa" itself isn't really a taxonomy, either. Among the loa there are a wide variety of different creatures - from Wild Gods to enhanced mortal spirits to ghosts (Night Elven Wisps are considered be loa by some Trolls). While this confirms Hakkar was indeed among the pantheon of Troll loa, we still don't know what he actually is. I always assumed he was a Wild God, just one that happened to be malevolent. The interesting thing about Hakkar was that he was specifically summoned to Azeroth from somewhere else, and may well not be native to Azeroth at all. This is buttressed by the fact that the Titans had no record of such a being, and his origin beyond his summoning by the ancient Trolls is unaccounted for in the Chronicle.

That may very well be true, and there have been hints that snakes or snake-like things are tied to some kind of secretive evil or force in the cosmology (Hakkar, Sethe, the Dark Portal and now Oribos), but having him be a nature spirit instead of some kind of eldritch monster makes him a little more limited in what he could be. If he was some sort of spirit being on par with N'zoth or a Titan I heavily doubt he would have a pod in the nature realm. At the very best he might be some kind of beast summoned from a snake world the same way Sethe was summoned to Draenor.

Forgot to mention that there is another snake loa who is also said to be bad, I don't remember there being one before but he is also working with Mueh'zala. But I doubt it's a coincidence that both are snakes.

[Kyphael]

I kinda hope we see the lands that Orc and Tauren Ancestors go too like the Timeless Isles or something. Gul'dan can be the main villain of the zone.

Agreed, it's what's keeping me excited for subsequent patches. They absolutely have to show us Orc and Tauren afterlife in content later in the expansion, and making it sandbox is a great idea.

[Hellspawn]

Agreed, it's what's keeping me excited for subsequent patches. They absolutely have to show us Orc and Tauren afterlife in content later in the expansion, and making it sandbox is a great idea.

I don't think there is a special afterlife for Orcs or Tauren.

[Nagawithlegs]

I don't think there is a special afterlife for Orcs or Tauren.

There is no reason there wouldn't be a shaman or element-oriented afterlife, there just isn't a playable one. So far there is only one recognizable orc spirit in Shadowlands and that's Draka in Maldraxxus, and while several Tauren are in Bastion that is based on their veneration for duty and spirits.

I haven't seen a single orc spirit or ghost otherwise in the footage over than some in the Maw.

I also don't think there are many Pandaren running around and they have several interesting dogmas about the afterlife.