Will any bosses in Naxxramas be difficult in the beginning?

[lortsy12]

This has been debunked so many times it's ridiculous.

https://www.method.gg/video/SeL4qYgiMNk

https://www.method.gg/video/ZM-AfVhZp7w

The videos are grainy as hell but you can clearly see the frost bolts still chunk people in LK, despite having 3-4x more HP.

https://www.method.gg/raid-history

The third link has the earliest kill video for every raid boss in wow history. Look through if you don't believe me. Is the relative tuning tighter in Naxx 40? By a few percent, yes. And LK also had power creep in terms of AoE healing and defensives. But to say that the numbers were the same or higher is just not true, we have video evidence to the contrary.

Hey, there used to be a website with a comparisong of each boss and trash mob and some other changes (25 man Naxxramas and 40 man original Naxxramas) where they compared each bosses' mechanics and raw damage. Most of the mechanics and bosses in original Naxxramas did even more damage than in the WotLK version and not relatively, but in pure numbers (for example some mechanic which did 5000 damage in original Naxx only did 3000 damage in WotLK Naxxramas)

Some examples of different mechanics being are the horsemen not just running to their own corners automatically, you had to seperate them individually, and some bosses even had drastically different mechanics such as Loatheb giving one minute cooldown to all healing spells, and Heigan the Unclean used to have a gauntlet event before him where he would also teleport random people in and they would have to complete the gauntlet to get back to the boss or die and the "plague" splashes in the dance event were more frequent and did more damage. I'm still trying to find that website with list of all the differences, it had comparison of each boss from the original Naxxramas and the WotLK version. Also, in that KT video if you got hit by frost blast it would be instant kill so you had to be sperad, and mind control would reset all threat and in OG Naxx KT could MC tanks too, unlike in the WotLK version. There is nothing to "debunk" here, it's pure numbers and facts, friend.

I'll post it here once I find it.


EDIT: https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Chan..._3.0_Naxxramas

This is what I found so far, it doesn't have most of the raw numbers, but still shows many of the differences. There used to be a website with all the data about damage, health etc. compared

[Hellobolis]

HS queuing, while beneficial, doesn't replace raw hit to Dual Wield because it's humanly impossible to have perfect queuing.

can't you just bind /cast !heroic strike to all your abilities? used a macro that let you toggle it on but not off for years.

was added in 2.3 i see, but who knows maybe they forgot to deactivate it in classic. and anyways a quick google already suggested alternatives that do the same thing.

[Nitros14]

Hey, there used to be a website with a comparisong of each boss and trash mob and some other changes (25 man Naxxramas and 40 man original Naxxramas) where they compared each bosses' mechanics and raw damage. Most of the mechanics and bosses in original Naxxramas did even more damage than in the WotLK version and not relatively, but in pure numbers (for example some mechanic which did 5000 damage in original Naxx only did 3000 damage in WotLK Naxxramas)

Some examples of different mechanics being are the horsemen not just running to their own corners automatically, you had to seperate them individually, and some bosses even had drastically different mechanics such as Loatheb giving one minute cooldown to all healing spells, and Heigan the Unclean used to have a gauntlet event before him where he would also teleport random people in and they would have to complete the gauntlet to get back to the boss or die and the "plague" splashes in the dance event were more frequent and did more damage. I'm still trying to find that website with list of all the differences, it had comparison of each boss from the original Naxxramas and the WotLK version. Also, in that KT video if you got hit by frost blast it would be instant kill so you had to be sperad, and mind control would reset all threat and in OG Naxx KT could MC tanks too, unlike in the WotLK version. There is nothing to "debunk" here, it's pure numbers and facts, friend.

I'll post it here once I find it.


EDIT: https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Chan..._3.0_Naxxramas

This is what I found so far, it doesn't have most of the raw numbers, but still shows many of the differences. There used to be a website with all the data about damage, health etc. compared

That wowwiki page is somewhat inaccurate. Anub'rekhan has no mortal strike or cleave for example.

There was a post on this in another thread.

I went through and looked up all the differences between the Naxxramases if people are curious.


Kel'Thuzad is certainly a big one but the fights that are going to be absurdly more difficult at 60 than 80 are Gothik and Four Horsemen.

There's a number of other changes to encounters 60 vs 80 that are pretty serious.

Anub'Rekhan: Taunt immune tank death is a wipe. Locust Swarm did 1,000 damage per stack at 60 (https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=28786/locust-swarm) and 1,500 per stack at 80 (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Anub%27Rek...-man_Abilities). 60 tanks would absolutely be one shot and needed to kite the boss, 80 tanks could just get healed through it.

Grand Widow Faerlina: Rain of Fire 2,000 at 60 4,000 at 80. HP quadrupled, so just a lot more tightly tuned. Also taunt immune.

Maexxna: This encounter is basically neutered at 80 and there's a number of reasons why. First HoTs can't be stacked at 60, only one druid can have regrowth up. Second, the raid wide stun is 10 seconds at 60 https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=29484/web-spray and 6 seconds at 80 https://www.wowhead.com/spell=54125/web-spray. Third Maexxna's base melee damage is 29,000 at 80 and 9,727 at 60 so she hits around 25% harder at 60 relative to hp pools. Fourth she's taunt immune at 60. So it's far more likely your tank dies at 60 and even if your tank dies at 80 you can taunt and keep going. Finally web wraps are put high up on the wall and take fall damage at 60.

Noth the Plaguebringer: 20 curses vs 8 on 25-man. Taunt immunity means blink actually does something.

Heigan the Unclean: In the same time frame there's 15 explosions in the 60 version and 11 explosions in the 80 version. So the dance is 36% faster. Also there's the tunnel teleport mechanic at 60 that just doesn't exist at 80. 80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuVX8x5dq3g start counting at 1:04 60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcHcHTAGGso start counting at 2:10. Also, taunt immune.

Loatheb's been talked about. He's also taunt immune at 60.

Patchwerk: Not too dissimilar actually. There's three hateful tank slots at 60 vs two at 80 and the 60 version hits roughly 25% harder and has more effective HP vs dps.

Grobbulus: Basically the same.

Gluth: Taunt immune, tank swaps are done through threat. Infected wound increases damage taken by 100 at 60 and 100 at 80, so stacks are about 400% more dangerous at 60.

Thaddius: Stalagg has a mana burn aura at 60. Looking at video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOeAmq3USPI There's a six second safe window for polarity at 80 (charge switches at 1:50, starts doing damage at 1:56). The window is four seconds at 60, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQyZeI6QSk (3:16 polarity shifts, 3:20 starts doing damage) Thaddius, unlike many Naxxramas 60 bosses, is tauntable!

Razuvious: His shout instakills mana users at 60, but he doesn't have the dagger throw. Pretty similar, slightly more technical with LOS at 60.

Gothik: The tuning difference on this fight is fairly huge. A lot of guilds carefully CC tons of mobs at 60 to avoid being overwhelmed while it's a zergfest at 80. As a specific example, the arcane explosion the spectral trainees do does https://wotlkdb.com/?spell=27989 550 damage at 80 and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=27...cane-explosion 550 damage at 60. So it hits roughly 400% harder at 60. Also the undead side is immune to magic at 60.

Four Horsemen: This fight might have the biggest difference in difficulty. First all the Horsemen are mobile and melee at 60. Second Horsemen marks last 75 seconds at 60 instead of 25 seconds at 80, the marks become lethal around mark 4 at 60 and mark 6 at 80. Third the Horsemen shield wall at 75%, 50% and 25% HP for 20 seconds at 60 making them nearly impossible to zerg down. So instead of a quick zerg on Korth'azz there's a long, drawn out sequence of group switches. Other funny tuning differences the void zones do less damage at 80 than 60.

From a video of a level 70 player doing the encounter.



And a level 80



Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad have been talked about above.

So effectively, Sapphiron's aura did 160% more damage at 80 while people had 400% more HP and healing capacity.


Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt volley at 60 was 2500 to 3500 frost damage. At 80 7200 to 8800 frost damage. Easily verifiable. It's certainly more tightly tuned at 60.

It's not why Kel'Thuzad 60 is so much harder than 80 mind you. The important differences are

- That he's immune to taunt and chains of kel'thuzad always targets the main tank at 60 causing a tank switch.
- That frost blast can chain infinitely instead of stopping at one jump and that you don't have circle of healing or wild growth for the melee.
- That his spell cooldowns are shorter, 90 second vs 60 second cooldown for chains of kel'thuzad for example.
- That you don't have bloodlust to burn down his last phase.
- That taunt is melee range instead of 30 yards and you have no misdirect for guardians of icecrown.
- That you need to maintain CC on three Guardians because they hit grossly harder than the 80 versions. The 80 versions are tuned around cc immunity.
- That guardians gain blood tap stacks from switching targets.

[lortsy12]

@Nitros14
Thank you. I just don't understand why people like OrcsRLame want to make up stuff and lie about things. Yes, original Naxxramas was harder than WotLK Naxx, even by pure numbers only. And before you call me a classic/vanilla fanboy, I'm not. But it's a fact that the OG Naxx was harder than WotLK naxx in every way. If they gave all the mechanics that Naxx 40 had to the WotLK Naxx, including stats, it would be harder than what we have (or had back in WotLK).

[xGLxAnubis]

can't you just bind /cast !heroic strike to all your abilities? used a macro that let you toggle it on but not off for years.

was added in 2.3 i see, but who knows maybe they forgot to deactivate it in classic. and anyways a quick google already suggested alternatives that do the same thing.

No, this won't actually correctly toggle it when needed and will result in it going off/not going off when intended.

The real strength of of the HS bug isn't in the toggling (Except when your gear is really bad, like initially starting MC with no World Buffs), but in the using normally. When gear reaches a certain point that you can almost ALWAYS use it normally. Toggling to try to abuse the bug isn't useful enough to make a huge impact, largely due to human error and response times.

[Cracked]

Thaddius will be fun before people learn. Gluth, maybe.

[Hellobolis]

No, this won't actually correctly toggle it when needed and will result in it going off/not going off when intended.

The real strength of of the HS bug isn't in the toggling (Except when your gear is really bad, like initially starting MC with no World Buffs), but in the using normally. When gear reaches a certain point that you can almost ALWAYS use it normally. Toggling to try to abuse the bug isn't useful enough to make a huge impact, largely due to human error and response times.

how does a macro that changes heroic strike cast behavior from "on, off, on, off" to "on, on, on, on" not do exactly that?

- - - Updated - - -

Thaddius will be fun before people learn. Gluth, maybe.

only if you have a very melee heavy team. you can always just let idiot healers/ranged stand in china where they never have to move.

[xGLxAnubis]

how does a macro that changes heroic strike cast behavior from "on, off, on, off" to "on, on, on, on" not do exactly that?

- - - Updated - - -



only if you have a very melee heavy team. you can always just let idiot healers/ranged stand in china where they never have to move.

Because the goal isn't to constantly toggle it 'on/off'. You toggle it on right before an offhand hits, and toggle it off right after (Or toggle it off right before a MH hit). But sometimes you have enough rage that you want to toggle it on and let it hit (Not toggling it off, but letting it turn off automatically as part of the melee swing. On/Off repeatedly doesn't accomplish either of these goals. Sometimes you'll toggle it on when you want, and sometimes oyu'll toggle it off when you want, but it'd be totally random; other times you'll toggle it on when you have almost no rage but a MH is about to hit and other times you'll toggle it off right before an OH hits.

[Nilinor]

@Nitros14
Thank you. I just don't understand why people like OrcsRLame want to make up stuff and lie about things. Yes, original Naxxramas was harder than WotLK Naxx, even by pure numbers only. And before you call me a classic/vanilla fanboy, I'm not. But it's a fact that the OG Naxx was harder than WotLK naxx in every way. If they gave all the mechanics that Naxx 40 had to the WotLK Naxx, including stats, it would be harder than what we have (or had back in WotLK).

It was funny, when we first went into wotlk naxx in my guild, I was literally the only play to do OG naxx.

I was explaining the fights (from memory) and after a bit was like "wtf is this garbage, this isnt naxx"

We cleared it the first night, but it kinda made sense, I mean it was the starter raid for wotlk, it wouldnt be og naxx hard at the start, but it was funny that half the mechanics I was explaining never happened.

[Lolites]

top guilds will clear it within first hour, average within first week and morons will strugle for a long time, pretty much as any classic raid

[Hellobolis]

On/Off repeatedly doesn't accomplish either of these goals.

yes.... thats why im saying all you should do is on on on on and never turn it off (while you have the rage).

i get the feeling you don't understand how /cast !<spell> works.

[Ariktu]

If you put people back on dial up then maybe you might have some issues otherwise the bosses will die pretty fast.

[Zigrifid]

I dont play classic but following the fest that is raiding now :P but i guess guilds will have issues with 4 horsemen lets not kid ourselfs there also what is the ZG trinket cheesing tactics ?

[Nitros14]

I dont play classic but following the fest that is raiding now :P but i guess guilds will have issues with 4 horsemen lets not kid ourselfs there also what is the ZG trinket cheesing tactics ?

There's nothing cheesy about it. Just reduces the chance that unlucky taunt resists will wipe you. Guilds knew about it and used it in 2006.

[xGLxAnubis]

yes.... thats why im saying all you should do is on on on on and never turn it off (while you have the rage).

i get the feeling you don't understand how /cast !<spell> works.

Well of course you keep it on when you have the rage. But /cast heroic Strike works just as well for that...

I don't believe it works in Classic, but /cast !<spell> would toggle a toggleable spell from on to off or off to on. Which in this case, isn't what we want with Heroic Strike at all. To achieve what you're talking about, you would just macro /cast Heroic Strike (Always cast when you have the rage), you don't need the toggle flag at all. but even that's a problem, because you don't ALWAYS cast heroic Strike when you have the rage to do so; you cast it when you're above a certain amount of rage.

[Cyanu]

after the fiasco of every single boss so far, do people seriously believe that anything in classic is difficult? you don't even need 40 people to clear Nax... just remember not to bring frost mages and it's going to be fine

[Aggrophobic]

It's all about preparation for the most part. Resist gear is something most raiders are already starting to think about, +21 Frost Resist rings are about 150-200g on my server. 4 Horsemen is cheesed with the ZG spell hit Trinket that serious guilds farmed for all their DPS warriors and the min-max nature of Classic already destroys the DPS requirements for Patchwerk and Loatheb.

The hardest ones for the "average" guild will be Heigen and Thaddius where the mechanics are oneshots if you mess them up. Heigen's dance is a lot more dangerous than it was in the Wrath version and Thaddius requires all 40 to be paying attention and positioned perfectly. Sapphiron will mess up anyone who tries to brute force her with no resist gear.

Unsure on Razuvious, if an MC misses it can mean wipe so best hope your priests have their hit gear. Gothik, Grobulus, the Spider Wing and KT will be pushovers.

Nah, even thoes are way easier than the LFR bosses you find in retail.

[Rusken]

Nah, even thoes are way easier than the LFR bosses you find in retail.

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...asy_after_all/

"Only ~41,1% of guilds that killed Skeram also killed C'thun.

Only ~18,6% of guilds that killed Skeram also killed Viscidus.

This means that nearly 82% of guilds that raided AQ40 couldn't clear it in the first week."

Yes, it's a little skewed since not every server had access, but it's also a good indicator that a lot of the more casual guilds are struggling with fights that have actual mechanics. It's not too far of a stretch to believe they'll struggle more with mechanics that are harder to execute and more punishing to fail. Those numbers even lead me to think that 4HM will be a huge block for any guild that's not prepped with ZG trinkets on all their warriors.

[Aggrophobic]

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/...asy_after_all/

"Only ~41,1% of guilds that killed Skeram also killed C'thun.

Only ~18,6% of guilds that killed Skeram also killed Viscidus.

This means that nearly 82% of guilds that raided AQ40 couldn't clear it in the first week."

Yes, it's a little skewed since not every server had access, but it's also a good indicator that a lot of the more casual guilds are struggling with fights that have actual mechanics. It's not too far of a stretch to believe they'll struggle more with mechanics that are harder to execute and more punishing to fail. Those numbers even lead me to think that 4HM will be a huge block for any guild that's not prepped with ZG trinkets on all their warriors.

I doubt few groups would kill N'zoth in LFR either, without stacks so my point still stands.
Vanilla is easy as heck, it's as simple as that.

You also have to take into account that players that want any form of challenging gameplay are most likely not playing classic at this point. You're not really looking at statistics from players that know how to play the game there.

[Uoyredrum]

Average guilds will probably have some issues with a few bosses, serious raiding guilds will likely clear it in 1-2 nights. I'd say 1 night for sure but there's a lot of bosses so I wouldn't be surprised if many guilds not going for server firsts would break it up into a couple nights until it's on farm.