So arthas was never holding back, the scourge was just weak?

[Varodoc]

Don't go there. Just don't. Both Horde and Alliance have artillery firing explosive and incendiary shells (not cannonballs) and capable of indirect fire. But they both use catapults (not even trebuchets) and siege towers despite being perfectly savvy enough with gunpowder and explosives to just tear the walls apart. This goes for just about any siege that happened in this game lately. When you have this kind of firepower you don't need siege towers to scale medieval stone walls, you can just blow them up.

Except for the fact that, huh, they had siege towers, both at Orgrimmar and Undercity, precisely because they could not just blow them up. The Alliance needed Jaina's magical ship to blow up the decrepit walls of Lordaeron.

It also remains the fact that the Alliance ultimately triumphed at Arathi and Darkshore, the most important battlegrounds in the entire war, while at the same time having enough manpower to siege Orgrimmar, one of the sturdiest military fortress on the planet, AND further managed to hold the line against N'Zoth's armies. So very clearly they did not have such a small army.

[Hellobolis]

Don't go there. Just don't. Both Horde and Alliance have artillery firing explosive and incendiary shells (not cannonballs) and capable of indirect fire. But they both use catapults (not even trebuchets) and siege towers despite being perfectly savvy enough with gunpowder and explosives to just tear the walls apart. This goes for just about any siege that happened in this game lately. When you have this kind of firepower you don't need siege towers to scale medieval stone walls, you can just blow them up.

it is kinda funny how you use some fancy goblin tank that just melts a canyon full of rocks to get to the siege, but then when you get there...

[Unholyground]

pretty much this.

don't take WoW's lore too seriously.

it's filled with more holes than Swiss Cheese.

That is the nature of MMO's that have survived this long, they are all full of holes if you look close enough but without adding more lore the game ends.

[Shadowspire]

Ok, so I'm going to explain why a uncontrolled scourge is bad using both rl, lore and game mechanics.

First the lore::
Every undead creature is now in basic instinct mode if not controlled by a person studied in necromancy. Before it was only 3 continents, now all of Azeroth has become connected and this time around all undead of every culture is set free and without restraint..pluuuuuuus its not clear if the dead also magically rise from graves if not magically protected.

Next emphasizing the threat with rl:
The scourge grows through a magical biological plague, with recent real life events even with our mondern technology and the fact wearing a mask and staying inside should reduced numbers we got to the millions. Now imagine what a magical literal zombie plague would do to a now medieval magical steampunk world. Priest and paladin are the only ones who can cure it and they're finite, plus the infection spread through food,bites,scratches, and magical means while also the actual zombies of varying types Carry it AND THEY ARE OUT TO KILL.


Yeah our heroes might be able to keep the tide at bay but now toss in the mortal mindset. Farmer Jim work force just survived a zombie attack but some of these ppl were nicked, they think it's not a big deal and go work in the field, infected goods are now harvested and sent off,infecting all who eat it,now they're spreading it through close contact, and you can see how this spirals out of control really really fast.

The zombies and undead are not the only problem, it's the near unmonitorable disease that is carried along with them that is Azeroth real downfall if we can't deal with this issue quickly enough.

[Mehrunes]

While the ending of WotLK never made, the way things go in SL don't exactly make sense either. Why is Putricide there, for example? For what reason would have Bolvar resurrected him? And while the Scourge being weak now that they lost the guidance of the Lich King makes sense in general, it still goes against the established lore of WotLK (as illogical as it was).

Disregarding some hero characters, the Scourge should if anything be more of a threat given that per the new book and even the pre-patch everyone continually mentions how weak the factions have gotten. The Horde mustering forty people was apparently difficult.

Why does Blizzard actually provide some specific numbers every now and then... Given how they can't make anything consistent for shit, it only blows back in their faces even harder than when they keep things vague and pull reinforcements for any given faction out of their rectums whenever necessary.. Because in Before the Storm Anduin berated Calia for almost starting a war that would have killed hundreds of thousands. Which doesn't exactly mesh well together with having troubles mustering 40 people.

[matrix123mko]

I think that assumption that Scourge without lich king should be stronger was idiotic one. That was dumber than any other expansion finale.

[Nerovar]

Given that the horde and alliance now have the night bourn shiny goats zandalari dark irons and abunch of other new forces standing united and way better weaponry it would make Sense that they would do way better against an unorganized scourge compared to wrath where the horde and alliance wanted to kill each other and had way less allies.

Pretty sure Horde and Alliance are at their weakest points right now with the aftermath of the 4th war going on, Night Elves and Forsaken being displaced/massacred etc. I mean, it was stated at the beginning of BfA that the Alliance is running out of troops.

[Blodia]

Except for the fact that, huh, they had siege towers, both at Orgrimmar and Undercity, precisely because they could not just blow them up. The Alliance needed Jaina's magical ship to blow up the decrepit walls of Lordaeron.

It also remains the fact that the Alliance ultimately triumphed at Arathi and Darkshore, the most important battlegrounds in the entire war, while at the same time having enough manpower to siege Orgrimmar, one of the sturdiest military fortress on the planet, AND further managed to hold the line against N'Zoth's armies. So very clearly they did not have such a small army.

Except for the fact that they weren't allowed to use their artillery because if they could it'd be pretty boring for the players. Both factions have early 19th century level of siege tech if not better now, and since BFA also enhabced with azerite. The only reason why either side couldn't breach a wall here and there is because the writers have to revert to deep medieval levels of technology and tone down magic because otherwise for example the siege of Undercity would look more like battle of Verdun than heroic charges and screaming real loud for the facion.
Badically, it's incoherent dogshit.

[DemonHunter18]

That is the nature of MMO's that have survived this long, they are all full of holes if you look close enough but without adding more lore the game ends.

all the more reason WoW should have ended long time ago.

they should just create expansions without any lore at all.

create random dungeons, raids with random creatures and PvP.

[Aucald]

I think that assumption that Scourge without lich king should be stronger was idiotic one. That was dumber than any other expansion finale.

I didn't really see Terenas' quote as saying the Scourge was stronger, per se; just more chaotic and uncontrolled as in a more direct and immediate threat.

[Unholyground]

all the more reason WoW should have ended long time ago.

they should just create expansions without any lore at all.

create random dungeons, raids with random creates and PvP.

I love WoW and adjust to the new lore and move on, I don't sit at home in my nerd chair dwelling on the changes and places where they left holes open in the lore like some people seem to do. Just enjoy it for what it is and assume anything can change.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Pretty sure Horde and Alliance are at their weakest points right now with the aftermath of the 4th war going on, Night Elves and Forsaken being displaced/massacred etc. I mean, it was stated at the beginning of BfA that the Alliance is running out of troops.

Its a stupid thing that only mattered cause BFA...



OT: Arthas was holding the Scourge back and while he did want to kill everyone it wasn't just every single Undead had their own instincts, it was still planned by a mortal(Human) therefore there was more intelligence behind it. The Scourge without a master just kinda rampage without any command. Also what we see ingame isn't necessarily represented to scale either but I could go on.

Except for the fact that they weren't allowed to use their artillery because if they could it'd be pretty boring for the players. Both factions have early 19th century level of siege tech if not better now, and since BFA also enhabced with azerite. The only reason why either side couldn't breach a wall here and there is because the writers have to revert to deep medieval levels of technology and tone down magic because otherwise for example the siege of Undercity would look more like battle of Verdun than heroic charges and screaming real loud for the facion.
Badically, it's incoherent dogshit.

Or something else would of happened if they knew Jaina was already there, Jaina had the element of Surprise.

[Varodoc]

Except for the fact that they weren't allowed to use their artillery because if they could it'd be pretty boring for the players. Both factions have early 19th century level of siege tech if not better now, and since BFA also enhabced with azerite. The only reason why either side couldn't breach a wall here and there is because the writers have to revert to deep medieval levels of technology and tone down magic because otherwise for example the siege of Undercity would look more like battle of Verdun than heroic charges and screaming real loud for the facion.
Badically, it's incoherent dogshit.

Back at you, "don't go there". They didn't use their artillery. I am not interested in meta reasons. The fact is they had cannons, but choose to use siege towers to get to the walls instead of just use artillery to blow up said walls, which were decrepit and ruined.

[DemonHunter18]

I love WoW and adjust to the new lore and move on, I don't sit at home in my nerd chair dwelling on the changes and places where they left holes open in the lore like some people seem to do. Just enjoy it for what it is and assume anything can change.

LOL you actually see them from a mile away.

the only one who sit on nerd chair are those who try to explain those holes and think how everything is grand plan.

[darkoms]

I didn't really see Terenas' quote as saying the Scourge was stronger, per se; just more chaotic and uncontrolled as in a more direct and immediate threat.

It's just that people still believe that Arthas held back the Scourge because of his humanity, and not because he wanted to lure the heroes to him and raise them as his generals. People think that these two things complement each other, but in reality they are mutually exclusive.

[Unholyground]

LOL you actually see them from a mile away.

the only one who sit on nerd chair are those who try to explain those holes and think how everything is grand plan.

I guess lmao, I just adapt to the new lore and any holes that exist I blame on the infinite dragon flight.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Pretty sure Horde and Alliance are at their weakest points right now with the aftermath of the 4th war going on, Night Elves and Forsaken being displaced/massacred etc. I mean, it was stated at the beginning of BfA that the Alliance is running out of troops.

Didn’t they only start to run out of troops In 8.1 because the night elf’s and the wolf’s ran off to dark shore? But even if they were running low at the start of bfa it would make no sense for this to be there weakest after getting the zandalari and fat humans to join up given that each is worth a whole core faction of the alliance and Horde likely stronger then some.

Then there’s things like tech advancements which they have had a ton of since wrath with azerite being the strongest weapon building material they have ever had.

[DemonHunter18]

I guess lmao, I just adapt to the new lore and any holes that exist I blame on the infinite dragon flight.

must be easy being you xd

[Accendor]

I can't really understand the decision to bring back so many bosses from the wotlk raid. The general consensus about the lich king seems that we need one so the scourge doesen't run rampart and kill everything and that we only stood a chance back in Wotlk because Arthas was holding back but this makes no sense to me now. If so many bosses have returned I think its safe to assume that the scourge basically is back at the same powerlevel as they were in Wotlk, and now that there is no lich king the scourge is actually running rampart and killing everything. What happened to the whole "We only have enough men for one final assault" that anduin said right before siege of orgrimmar 2.0? Surely we lost even more troops to Nzoth? How do we defeat a full powered scourge then? Magical poof, here is an army.

Kinda undermines and makes the scourge look pathetic. I could have gotten it if we still had our artifact weapons or literally anything else but we just recovered from a world war and a fight with a full powered old god but somehow we can fight a scourge that has been amassing forces since wotlk and has resurrected many of its commanders.

meh they even forgot that Kel'thuzad still had his phylactery but somehow ended up in the shadowlands

We barely lost anyone to Nzoth. There was one wxpedition that the player bombed in Uldum, but that's it. Nzoths impact on the world was next to nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Except for the fact that, huh, they had siege towers, both at Orgrimmar and Undercity, precisely because they could not just blow them up. The Alliance needed Jaina's magical ship to blow up the decrepit walls of Lordaeron.

It also remains the fact that the Alliance ultimately triumphed at Arathi and Darkshore, the most important battlegrounds in the entire war, while at the same time having enough manpower to siege Orgrimmar, one of the sturdiest military fortress on the planet, AND further managed to hold the line against N'Zoth's armies. So very clearly they did not have such a small army.

They did not now then up because they did not try, not because they couldn't. It's even worse, with the Vindicar the Siege of UC should have been a no brainer, hell, the whole expansion should have been.

[Varodoc]

Did people forget that Orgrimmar is built in a narrow canyon? Even if the Alliance by chance managed to breach the walls of Orgrimmar without losing too many men, then the Forsaken could just deploy blight catapults along the canyons of the city and rain death upon the Alliance forces clumped up within the small canyon that houses Orgrimmar. Simply put, Orgrimmar is a very difficult city to attack. MoP made this obvious, with Baine pointing out how the rebels would need the help of the Alliance to succeed, since Garrosh had turned Orgrimmar into one of the mightiest fortress-cities in the world.