Will any bosses in Naxxramas be difficult in the beginning?

[TJ]

Hm...whatever "serious" player means. I mean..I did run heroics...to help guildies, to get "The Patient" title and also raided. But maybe I wasn't serious because we never got 25 HM LK. Also didn't think my rotations were complicated in WotLK (seeing that a guy here called WotLK a non-dumbed down version of the game, while MMO C called it Wrath of the casual King - which I get..as I said...I didn't really ever pug raids before WotLk and never raided on 4 toons before or after)

Wasn't a dig at you mate, was just saying that the context to my comment was in relation to how the classes performed and their rotations, not the state of accessibility and difficulty of heroics.

[Mosotti]

Not a single boss in Classic is difficult.

So you've killed them all on the first try?

[Jurwi]

So you've killed them all on the first try?

Probably hasn't even killed them all. Might not even play Classic.

I can see his point though. I mean, compared to retail Mythic raids, yes, Classic bosses are piss easy. Why wouldn't they be, they were basically the beta test of raid content and it's been evolving ever since for 15 years.

But then again... so? I don't think anyone with more than 3 functional brain cells ever thought Classic bosses would be especially hard. It took us 2 evenings to nail everything in AQ40, and only thing that took more than 3 tries was Twin Emperors, and even that was because somekind of messed up bug that caused the caster Twin to run to Warlock tank and melee + AE him down instead of normally casting Shadow Bolts.

[Millyraynge]

So you've killed them all on the first try?

so all bosses you wiped once are hard bosses? not imagine to wipe a second time, must be a nightmare type of a boss.

[arkanon]

So you've killed them all on the first try?

This is such a bullshit argument. It is not a pre requisite of something being classified as "not difficult" that everyone can do it first time every time. This is the level of dishonesty that apologists will go to.

Tank DC's and causes wipe "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD!"
Server lags out "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD!"
People are mostly afk and you only take 30 ppl "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD"
Raid enters with zero coms, zero prep, total strangers, wipes once on a boss "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD"

There was a thread on the BFA forum today / yesterday from a guild running mythic. They just defeated 11/12M with 150 attempts. They wanted to know if they will have enough time to clear the final boss before SL pre patch. Conservative estimates are pointing towards 250-300 pulls on 12/12 to get the kill. This is difficult content.

Everything is known about this encounter - there are no secrets. All classes and specs have been simmed like a space launch. Execution is the only factor holding them back from 12/12, and its fair to assume they will spend 200+ attempts on this boss.

[EbonBehelit-]

Yes, Wrath was definitely the easiest because you said so. Nothing ironic about it at all.

That's not what irony means.

Regardless, the term "wrath baby" used to exist for a reason: Wrath was, at that point, the easiest WoW had ever been to play by far, and it still remains so today (though not by much). Questing and levelling were easy. 5-man Heroics were braindead zergfests for the entire expansion. Raids were a joke until Ulduar. PvP was an unbalanced mess, with insanely low TTK and ridiculous zerg comps (people would later call this and early Cata the golden age of PvP because of what came after).

Wrath was an at best passable expansion, propped up by (a) having the most popular character in Warcraft history on the box, and (b) being followed up Cata, the worst expansion in the game's history. And then MoP, the most controversial one. And then WoD, the most disappointing one. It launched when WoW was pretty much at its zenith, but the incredibly divisive changes it brought to the game crushed the momentum built up from Vanilla and TBC and practically flatlined the game's sub count. The expansion wrapped up with barely more players than it started with, and it also saw the first actual sub dip in the game's history.

Would I prefer to play Wrath than Retail? Absolutely. But give me Classic or TBC any day, please.

Again, Wrath rotations were not unbelievably hard to any good player, but keeping track of everything and fulfilling your potential for maximum dps whilst performing the mechanics is a complete different matter. As I said, things didn't auto refresh, or you had extra buffs/things to keep track of. That's what retail has lost. That's only a few things. So many other little things for other Classes that are now basic for any skill level of player, no need to track them or think about them because they're already automatically rolled in.

I probably should have worded that better, because despite being a bit snarky I do somewhat agree with you. Mechanics like DoT snapshotting weren't difficult to learn how to deal with, but did contribute to having a higher skill ceiling overall. I still don't think the game was that hard to play though, even back then, and for every spec as notorious as Feral there were a handful of braindead specs. Wrath was also the expansion that saw mana management cease to be a thing, and while Blizz did try at times (poorly) to rectify this problem, it hasn't come back in any meaningful capacity since.

So yeah, it was still better than Retail, but that's not a very high bar to clear.

Please explain how every bad trait can be linked back to Wrath, if it was so bad then it wouldn't have broken the sub record. Sure, it made the game more accessible in some aspects, but the difficulty and core of the game was still there if you wanted it. Nothing at all like retail nowadays.

Here's a few things off the top of my head.

Automatic Dungeon finder: this led to Raid Finder, and the cheapening of endgame content.

Braindead 5-man content: Bland, linear dungeon design may have been TBC's cardinal sin, but 5-man content was easier in Wrath than at any other point in the game. It was so bad that Blizz actually tried to correct course in Cata, but by then the playerbase had grown accustomed to not paying attention in dungeons, and the 5-mans had to be nerfed to accomodate.

Excessive number of raid difficulties: every single raid tier in Wrath had a different difficulty system. Hell, ICC and ToC had four different modes, which is precisely three too many. Which leads directly into....

Class homogenization: yes, this started in Wrath. Arena didn't help, but the move to endgame 10-man raiding necessitated this process. Unique class utility and buffs were either stripped out or doled out to other classes to ensure their presence in smaller raid groups. I mained a Shadow Priest in TBC, and the spec hasn't felt right ever since Wrath turned them into discount Afflocks.

Sorry if I came across a bit harsh in this post and the last one, by the way. I think about Wrath a fair bit, and even if what I have to say isn't entirely positive, I do have a lot of nostalgia for it.

[TJ]

That's not what irony means.

Regardless, the term "wrath baby" used to exist for a reason: Wrath was, at that point, the easiest WoW had ever been to play by far, and it still remains so today (though not by much). Questing and levelling were easy. 5-man Heroics were braindead zergfests for the entire expansion. Raids were a joke until Ulduar. PvP was an unbalanced mess, with insanely low TTK and ridiculous zerg comps (people would later call this and early Cata the golden age of PvP because of what came after).

Wrath was an at best passable expansion, propped up by (a) having the most popular character in Warcraft history on the box, and (b) being followed up Cata, the worst expansion in the game's history. And then MoP, the most controversial one. And then WoD, the most disappointing one. It launched when WoW was pretty much at its zenith, but the incredibly divisive changes it brought to the game crushed the momentum built up from Vanilla and TBC and practically flatlined the game's sub count. The expansion wrapped up with barely more players than it started with, and it also saw the first actual sub dip in the game's history.

Would I prefer to play Wrath than Retail? Absolutely. But give me Classic or TBC any day, please.

I know what irony means, I wasn't saying it in regards to my first sentence, but that your claim about irony concerning my post was incorrect ^^.

If you're talking questing, leveling, 5 man heroics. Dude, I agree, they were easy, but pretty much all of us play for the high level raids or PvP. Disregarding Sarth 3D, entry tier was undertuned. Ulduar was a big step up, and as I said, the more challenging content was there for the people that wanted it in the form of hard modes. This of course continued to the end tier and I don't see the issue with this. Sure, the normal modes were easy for a skilled player, but that's not what they were there for. People would still get gear, but they would have to be good to get the best items. Unlike Classic where there is an unreal amount of bad players with the best gear.

I don't think PvP was anywhere near that bad. DK's and Rets (for a bit) were unreal in the first season, I can agree, but all expacs have issues when they were first released. The only issue I had was DKs and their plethora of abilities which put them too high on the balance spectrum for me. Zerg comps were prevalent, yes, but they always have been to a degree, such as Frost mage with Sub Rogues and other combos. I know Beastcleave did a holy hell amount of damage, but if you could survive their burst (which you could if played right) then you would be able to counter them. Again, I don't really see a huge issue, especially compared to TBC arena. I thought it was more balanced and good players were still separated from bad players, whereas now I've seen things like Corruption or whatever it's called literally one shotting players.

What you're saying about Wrath being a passable expansion is subjective and only your opinion. I understand that some people didn't like it and prefer other iterations, but that doesn't validate it as fact, a lot of people disagree. I personally loved Wrath, and Cata was actually my favourite from a gameplay perspective (a lot of class improvements, imo), but I understand some people disagree. As you said, you prefer TBC OR Classic, and that's fine. Out of interest, can you explain why you prefer Classic?

I probably should have worded that better, because despite being a bit snarky I do somewhat agree with you. Mechanics like DoT snapshotting weren't difficult to learn how to deal with, but did contribute to having a higher skill ceiling overall. I still don't think the game was that hard to play though, even back then, and for every spec as notorious as Feral there were a handful of braindead specs. Wrath was also the expansion that saw mana management cease to be a thing, and while Blizz did try at times (poorly) to rectify this problem, it hasn't come back in any meaningful capacity since.

So yeah, it was still better than Retail, but that's not a very high bar to clear.

I agree, as I said in a previous post, I'm not saying Wrath rotations were super hard because they weren't, especially on a Patchwerk style fight. But to perform your rotation as close as you can to perfection whilst following all the mechanics was harder, because nowadays things auto refresh and are castable whilst moving with extra utility etc etc. Maybe this doesn't apply to every single spec in the game, but it felt more prevalent.
I don't think mana management ceased, more that the power level and stat increases that we seen towards the end were so unbelievably inflated that the regen became waaay too strong. I think it came back in Cata to start with, but again the same issue came into play, providing my memory is correct.

Here's a few things off the top of my head.

Automatic Dungeon finder: this led to Raid Finder, and the cheapening of endgame content.

Braindead 5-man content: Bland, linear dungeon design may have been TBC's cardinal sin, but 5-man content was easier in Wrath than at any other point in the game. It was so bad that Blizz actually tried to correct course in Cata, but by then the playerbase had grown accustomed to not paying attention in dungeons, and the 5-mans had to be nerfed to accomodate.

Excessive number of raid difficulties: every single raid tier in Wrath had a different difficulty system. Hell, ICC and ToC had four different modes, which is precisely three too many. Which leads directly into....

Class homogenization: yes, this started in Wrath. Arena didn't help, but the move to endgame 10-man raiding necessitated this process. Unique class utility and buffs were either stripped out or doled out to other classes to ensure their presence in smaller raid groups. I mained a Shadow Priest in TBC, and the spec hasn't felt right ever since Wrath turned them into discount Afflocks.

Sorry if I came across a bit harsh in this post and the last one, by the way. I think about Wrath a fair bit, and even if what I have to say isn't entirely positive, I do have a lot of nostalgia for it.

I guess this is where we disagree :P

I am both for an against Dungeon finder. I can see both sides of the coin, but I honestly didn't mind it being implemented as it was so convenient for mains, alts, leveling players, all sorts. But there is something about gathering a group and running to the dungeon which made it such a cool and "MMO" experience.

Raid finder I have never liked. It never affected me as I raided hardcore, so I had much better gear than the people that ran it, but I agree that it simply ruined a lot of the end game experience as people were killing bosses in the latest raid whilst doing next to nothing. Warlord Zon'ozz in DS was a big shock to me when I did LFR as the boss basically did itself as the ball you had to manually keep track of in normal/heroic would move on its own xD. I can agree with that, but to be fair it wasn't implemented in Wrath. I know your argument is that DF led to it, but I think due to the success it had and the new accessibility it provided contributed massively to something like LFR being implemented. If people never used it and it had nothing but complaints, then I don't think LFR would've even been considered due to backlash.

The raid difficulties I can agree with, at the start of a new tier and seeing all the new gear that you could get made it very tiresome to run 3-4 versions of the raid each week. Again, I can see both sides of the coin of why they did it whilst trying to cater to all players, but yeah, a massive pain and I would've preferred to just have 10/25.

I don't think the homogenisation was that bad in Wrath, but maybe I'm comparing too much to retail/MoP. I think Wrath had a nice balance of providing buffs for some classes, but also requiring other classes to support them. Being honest, it's kind of hard to remember every detail from so long ago.

I think the staff and leadership of Blizzard has changed so much over the years that they all have different ideas on what they think is beneficial and will be a good implementation. I personally don't think that Wrath led to the downfall and ALL of the bad changes just because it made things more accessible. I think it had a good balance.

No worries, bud, I like to talk about Wrath and hear what people think. If you didn't like it then that's fair enough, not everyone thinks the same. Opinions are like arseholes, after all

[Vampyrr]

Talking like retail is hard lmao. The game has been dumbed down that much compared to the Wrath/Cata/Mop days, it's faceroll to perform your rotation. Sure, the mechanics are harder no doubt, but classes are a cakewalk compared to before, and that contributed massively to guilds performing well or downing content.

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I think the booming playerbase easily disagrees with your post. Retail is tedious and boring as you are basically immortal whilst leveling, at least Classic offers some sort of challenge to think about a pull before doing it. I mean just because you don't like Classic, it definitely does not mean everything else is in the same boat. A lot of people hate the direction WoW has taken and prefer the old style, I'm one of them. Even though Classic is very simple and limited compared to the hardcore raiding I was used to, I still enjoy it and would take it over retail any day.

I mean leveling is the WORST part of classic though, so I wouldn't raise that up as a sign of it being awesome.

[MrMatticus]

It won't be anywhere close to unclearable, but Naxx damage output is close to WotLK Naxx.

I'm not claiming anything but those are just stats.

That's just not true.

[Jurwi]

Talking like retail is hard lmao. The game has been dumbed down that much compared to the Wrath/Cata/Mop days, it's faceroll to perform your rotation. Sure, the mechanics are harder no doubt, but classes are a cakewalk compared to before, and that contributed massively to guilds performing well or downing content.

Compared to Classic, it is very hard. Yes, a lot of things have been dumbed down in retail, but then again, most classes in Classic spam 1-2 buttons when raiding. Gear stat wise the most challenging thing is to fill hit cap. Having 30 spells in spellbook that you NEVER use in a raid don't make the class hard to play. Healer is the only remotely "hard" role to play in Classic due to spell down ranking.

I prefer Classic over retail simply because the community feels just 100x better, and the world is more engaging. It's a stupidly easy game to play though.

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I mean leveling is the WORST part of classic though, so I wouldn't raise that up as a sign of it being awesome.

Quite the opposite, I think I enjoy leveling experience the most along with raids. Dungeons, gold grinding, PvP are just plain boring.

[chrisnumbers]

Topics like these aren't really about the topic itself. Instead it's about who knows the most and who is the most correct.

[arkanon]

That's just not true.

Its not worth it, honestly. There is no open discussion to be had with anyone who genuinely believes this.

[Kralljin]

I don't think the homogenisation was that bad in Wrath, but maybe I'm comparing too much to retail/MoP. I think Wrath had a nice balance of providing buffs for some classes, but also requiring other classes to support them. Being honest, it's kind of hard to remember every detail from so long ago.

Might be a more isolated example, but for me as Shaman main, Wotlk seriously suffers for me personally from this.

Shaman were too valueable to a raid in TBC without question, but in the good old Blizzard fashion, they went into the complete opposite direction, removed every unique support tool from shaman (barring Bloodlust, though that followed in Cata) and left them to rot.
Imagine being a support class and then having all your unique support tools taken away.

And quite frankly, this identity crisis that was kicked off in Wotlk for the Shaman class still lingers on, Blizzard has no idea what to do with Shaman since Wotlk.
They're good if the numbers magically carry them, but not because of some general "Shaman philosophy" that shines in certain situations.

I personally don't think that Wrath led to the downfall and ALL of the bad changes just because it made things more accessible. I think it had a good balance.

The issue is that Blizzard has usually doubled down on a lot of things that they started in Wotlk.
Wotlk is for me the point where RPG portion of the reward structure started to die and became your seasonal ("Play the patch") game that pulls a soft gear reset every major patch.

I don't think Wotlk was that bad on its own, but it is the Genesis of a design philosophy that made me enjoy the game less.

[arkanon]

Shaman were too valueable to a raid in TBC without question

Hell yeah they were! it was amazing! when TBC hit the first thing i did was power level an alliance shammy and "gear" him ASAP - i got into any group i wanted without question - it was amazing! I mean, it was terrible, but.....AMAZING!!!!

[Vampyrr]

Compared to Classic, it is very hard. Yes, a lot of things have been dumbed down in retail, but then again, most classes in Classic spam 1-2 buttons when raiding. Gear stat wise the most challenging thing is to fill hit cap. Having 30 spells in spellbook that you NEVER use in a raid don't make the class hard to play. Healer is the only remotely "hard" role to play in Classic due to spell down ranking.

I prefer Classic over retail simply because the community feels just 100x better, and the world is more engaging. It's a stupidly easy game to play though.

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Quite the opposite, I think I enjoy leveling experience the most along with raids. Dungeons, gold grinding, PvP are just plain boring.

Guess that one will differ from person to person. From the old guard I think most enjoyed leveling again and going slow but newer players probably want max lvl content more.

[OrcsRLame]

This is such a bullshit argument. It is not a pre requisite of something being classified as "not difficult" that everyone can do it first time every time. This is the level of dishonesty that apologists will go to.

Tank DC's and causes wipe "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD!"
Server lags out "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD!"
People are mostly afk and you only take 30 ppl "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD"
Raid enters with zero coms, zero prep, total strangers, wipes once on a boss "I TOLD YOU IT WAS HARD"

There was a thread on the BFA forum today / yesterday from a guild running mythic. They just defeated 11/12M with 150 attempts. They wanted to know if they will have enough time to clear the final boss before SL pre patch. Conservative estimates are pointing towards 250-300 pulls on 12/12 to get the kill. This is difficult content.

Everything is known about this encounter - there are no secrets. All classes and specs have been simmed like a space launch. Execution is the only factor holding them back from 12/12, and its fair to assume they will spend 200+ attempts on this boss.

Indeed, and this is with the insane power creep of the 8.3 systems. How many corruptions did Limit kill N'zoth with? Like 2-3 per person? And I doubt more than 50% of them were optimal.

Now people have all these extra corruptions, more gear from farming mythic for months, and all/most of that gear is socketed due to Horrific Visions.

[arkanon]

Indeed, and this is with the insane power creep of the 8.3 systems. How many corruptions did Limit kill N'zoth with? Like 2-3 per person? And I doubt more than 50% of them were optimal.

Now people have all these extra corruptions, more gear from farming mythic for months, and all/most of that gear is socketed due to Horrific Visions.

For some reason i feel the need to keep adding this - It is TOTALLY ok that classic is so easy - vanilla was easy and it was a fucking HUGE success. I wont speak for everyone, but when i say classic/vanilla is extremely easy, i dont view that as a negative at all - its just the truth.

Sometimes i dont feel like being challenged or pushed - sometimes i just want a social, relaxed, fun environment were i can clear a raid in 90 minutes, have some laughs, a few brews, something on the tv in the background - no pressure. Classic is PERFECT for that, and one of the things i enjoy about it.

[OrcsRLame]

For some reason i feel the need to keep adding this - It is TOTALLY ok that classic is so easy - vanilla was easy and it was a fucking HUGE success. I wont speak for everyone, but when i say classic/vanilla is extremely easy, i dont view that as a negative at all - its just the truth.

Sometimes i dont feel like being challenged or pushed - sometimes i just want a social, relaxed, fun environment were i can clear a raid in 90 minutes, have some laughs, a few brews, something on the tv in the background - no pressure. Classic is PERFECT for that, and one of the things i enjoy about it.

Yeah I raid in classic and I enjoy it. It's a fun game, it's just not very hard. I do sometimes wish it was more challenging but it is what it is. I've got retail to stimulate my brain and classic to relax.

[Mukind]

If your guild is competent...No

If you're guild isn't competent....Yes

[EbonBehelit-]

Disregarding Sarth 3D, entry tier was undertuned. Ulduar was a big step up, and as I said, the more challenging content was there for the people that wanted it in the form of hard modes. This of course continued to the end tier and I don't see the issue with this. Sure, the normal modes were easy for a skilled player, but that's not what they were there for. People would still get gear, but they would have to be good to get the best items. Unlike Classic where there is an unreal amount of bad players with the best gear.

I actually don't mind the first tier of raiding being easier, but Naxx was just a tad much. It's not controversial for me to say the Ulduar was the best raid in Wrath, but I'd also consider how that tier did difficulty to be almost perfect as well. Then again, I personally think that raids should only have one size and difficulty, and I know that many would disagree.

I don't think PvP was anywhere near that bad. DK's and Rets (for a bit) were unreal in the first season, I can agree, but all expacs have issues when they were first released. The only issue I had was DKs and their plethora of abilities which put them too high on the balance spectrum for me.

One of my biggest WoW regrets was waiting until Season 8 to switch mains to DK. I never got to try Shadowfrost at its prime.

I thought it was more balanced and good players were still separated from bad players, whereas now I've seen things like Corruption or whatever it's called literally one shotting players.

Trinkets and procs are out of control in retail. Trinkets in general have been way too powerful since at least MoP, and Blizz would rather change fundamental game mechanics (like snapshotting) than simply reel item power back in.

When an item proc does half your dps, you know the system is broken.

What you're saying about Wrath being a passable expansion is subjective and only your opinion. I understand that some people didn't like it and prefer other iterations, but that doesn't validate it as fact, a lot of people disagree. I personally loved Wrath, and Cata was actually my favourite from a gameplay perspective (a lot of class improvements, imo), but I understand some people disagree. As you said, you prefer TBC OR Classic, and that's fine. Out of interest, can you explain why you prefer Classic?

As much as I rag on about Wrath, I'd still rather play it than any expansion that followed. Traipsing about Northrend was fun, and I've mained a DK in every expansion since. I just dislike the fundamental design philosophy shifts that happened during that expansion, because they led in many ways to the problems the game has now.

As far as Classic goes though, I personally feel that Classic leverages the strengths of an MMO better than the more modern incarnations of the game: big open world, lots of players, minimal railroading. Class balance really sucks ass, though, which is a blemish that almost ruins the entire game, and one I hope the devs eventually experiment with once Naxx becomes old hat. TBC, though far from perfect, was a much better game in this regard.

I am both for an against Dungeon finder. I can see both sides of the coin, but I honestly didn't mind it being implemented as it was so convenient for mains, alts, leveling players, all sorts. But there is something about gathering a group and running to the dungeon which made it such a cool and "MMO" experience.

Raid finder I have never liked. [...] I know your argument is that DF led to it, but I think due to the success it had and the new accessibility it provided contributed massively to something like LFR being implemented. If people never used it and it had nothing but complaints, then I don't think LFR would've even been considered due to backlash.

I think the system Blizzard devised for building Mythic+ groups is the ideal here: convenient, but not automated. Too much convenience can sometimes be a bad thing though, and lead to outcomes that are detrimental to the game as we've seen with LFR. Players want a lot of things, and it's not always a good idea to actually give them everything they ask for.

The implementation of the Dungeon Finder heavily restricted how Blizzard could subsequently design 5-man content: from then on, almost every dungeon had to be of relatively uniform difficulty, have 3-4 bosses, and be 20-30 minutes long. Any major deviations from this, such as Cata's dungeons at launch, would (and did) cause severe backlash. It's no coincidence that longer 5-man dungeons only came back when Blizz introduced Mythic+ to the game.

I don't think the homogenisation was that bad in Wrath, but maybe I'm comparing too much to retail/MoP. I think Wrath had a nice balance of providing buffs for some classes, but also requiring other classes to support them. Being honest, it's kind of hard to remember every detail from so long ago.

The concept of Class/spec-specific utility was almost entirely stripped out in Wrath. The introduction of end-game(ish) 10-man raiding essentially mandated this process, because 10-man raid groups cannot reasonably guarantee the presence of at least one of each class. Most stat buffs & debuffs were given to at least one other class. Hunters' Misdirect was given to Rogues. Shadowpriest mana regen -- the iconic mechanic the entire spec was built around-- was streamlined, nerfed into near-irrelevance, and given to Hunters, Mages, Paladins and bloody Warlocks, of all things. Afaik, the only classes that kept unique utility through Wrath were Shamans (until Cata gave Bloodlust to Mages and Hunters), and Warlocks -- who still to this day have utility that's never been given to another class.

This change in design philosphy was the beginning of the "bring the player, not the class" era of WoW that Blizzard have only just begun trying to reverse.