Constantly switching spec/talents/trinkets is not fun?

[Demeisen]

I already explained that my interest is in being meaningfully, substantively different from other warlocks in the long term, not in being limited by comparison to them. The fact that you refuse to engage with this point, and instead repeatedly beat this strawman of "I dont want to play them all" is getting really tired and shows that you don't really have a coherent argument here.

Again, I'm not telling you that you have to like the system. You can hate it, just like I hate how easy it is to switch spec and talents. The problem here is that you want to believe that your personal, subjective OPINION is some hard fact about reality. It isn't. It's just what you'd prefer the game be like. That's fine, but this obsession you have with demanding that every single aspect of the game be EXACTLY like you want or else everyone else is being selfish and you need to PROVE factually how wrong they are is a sign of incredible immaturity.

Let's be honest, here - the responses to this and other threads indicate that some players are so invested in the concept that "optimisation is bad and nobody who optimises can possibly be having fun" that they'll support literally any system that's perceived to be annoying to players who enjoy optimising.

[Stardrift]

What major essences do you use currently and in what content? What is your class too?

Nothing

Deleted my account upon playing 10 minutes of 8.3. Was playing frost DK. I min/maxed my essences for a single fight in heroic EP and that was it. First and last time I've ever had to min/max for a fight. Continued to top perform without needing to min/max and loading my screen up with blinking lights add-ons

[Demsi]

I like swapping between talents to deal with different boss fights/arena comps, i did that a lot during MoP/WoD when i was a tank, i really dont want a "one size fits all" talent system that we had prior to MoP.

[Rayzen17]

You're going to be really upset when they implement subclasses in the next expansion as a natural evolution of the covenant system. Those of us who actually like RPGs on the other hand will be delighted.

If sub-classes are going to be implemented, it would mean they're an actual extension of the class.... wait, isn't that specializations?
Anyways, let's say they do implement sub-classes. It means that they will be tailored to the classes and are a permanent addition.
That would be fine.

But if you think we won't be able to change them like we are changing specs today, then it's probably you who is going to be surprised...

[NineSpine]

But you can stay how much you want as a Venthyr.
Player X, Y and Z may chose the same covenant or different covenants than you, therefore raising your uniqueness or lowering it.
In the end it doesn't make you unique in any meaningful way, long term or short term, you don't know how often the others change covenants or what covenants they switch to.

What is the exact meaning if you stay as Covenant X long term but everybody else switches or not? What's your relation to them?
How does Jimmy here switching between Night Fae and Necrolords going to hurt your Venthyr long term retirement plan?
It doesn't, does it?

Also your attacks on me have no effect. This isn't me dictating how others are locked. This is you guys dictating to me how to play the game.
Covenants being unlocked doesn't change how you play the game, unless you actually use the feature.

For the third time, I want my covenant to be an aspect that differentiates my character from others, just like how my class and race differentiates me. As a warlock I feel very distinct from a mage. As a demonology warlock I do not feel very distinct from an affliction warlock because we are both one button from being identical.

I like making difficult, long term decisions that change how the game plays for me. It makes me feel good. It makes the game more fun for me. It makes me want to play the game.

Your cries of selfishness are incredibly bizarre considering that the rest of the game is already the way you want and you are absolutely apoplectic and losing your shit over the idea that any aspect of the game would be designed for someone who doesn't approach the game the way you do. This is a petulant, childish fit.

Are we going to keep going on with this boring strawman, or are you going to address the point?

[Rayzen17]

For the third time, I want my covenant to be an aspect that differentiates my character from others, just like how my class and race differentiates me. As a warlock I feel very distinct from a mage. As a demonology warlock I do not feel very distinct from an affliction warlock because we are both one button from being identical.

I like making difficult, long term decisions that change how the game plays for me. It makes me feel good. It makes the game more fun for me. It makes me want to play the game.

Your cries of selfishness are incredibly bizarre considering that the rest of the game is already the way you want and you are absolutely apoplectic and losing your shit over the idea that any aspect of the game would be designed for someone who doesn't approach the game the way you do. This is a petulant, childish fit.

Are we going to keep going on with this boring strawman, or are you going to address the point?

What's the point to address? Your covenant choice will differentiate you always from 3/4 of the covenants, whether you keep the same covenant or chose another one you are still going to only differentiate from 3/4 covenants.
You'll always be the same 1/4 unique, regardless of you or other people switching. This is not something that can be resolved for you through locking or unlocking covenants, it's just math.

The game has always been about choosing and being able to chose what is best, sans rng stuff like Legiondaries and other gear(read corruptions) generally, but essences, talents, your spec are all changeable. And as you know the rng aspect of Legiondaries was resolved later, a corruption was added later as well, essences have always been swappable and so do talents, in some expacs for a small fee.
This is the only time in the game where you are time gated (2 weeks grind) from actually modifying your character in such a way. In the past what you grinded is what you kept.

I see no reason to lower the amount of customization that the game has and so do many others.
We'll see when this hits live if the majority likes the system or not i guess.

[NineSpine]

What's the point to address? Your covenant choice will differentiate you always from 3/4 of the covenants, whether you keep the same covenant or chose another one you are still going to only differentiate from 3/4 covenants.
You'll always be the same 1/4 unique, regardless of you or other people switching. This is not something that can be resolved for you through locking or unlocking covenants, it's just math.

The game has always been about choosing and being able to chose what is best, sans rng stuff like Legiondaries and other gear(read corruptions) generally, but essences, talents, your spec are all changeable. And as you know the rng aspect of Legiondaries was resolved later, a corruption was added later as well, essences have always been swappable and so do talents, in some expacs for a small fee.
This is the only time in the game where you are time gated (2 weeks grind) from actually modifying your character in such a way. In the past what you grinded is what you kept.

I see no reason to lower the amount of customization that the game has and so do many others.
We'll see when this hits live if the majority likes the system or not i guess.

This isn't about the amount of customization. This is about whether the customization choices are short term or long term. Four covenants are four covenants. It's not magically more than that if you can swap all the time. You just prefer short term customization and I prefer long term customization.

The point, which you refuse to address, is that short term and long term obviously mean different things. You know just as well as I do that if you could swap class at will the game would feel quite different and class would be a lot less important to everyone. There would be a lot less investment and personal identity associated with class.

Again, you don't have to like long term choices, but your weird refusal to recognize that these are subjective opinions and not facts is really weird. I think that spec should be incredibly difficult to change, but I'm not going to pretend that that's something more than my opinion, and I'm not going to pretend that you should like that just because I like that. Grow up a little bit. People can like different things.

[KrayZ33]

You can repeat yourself another 20-30 times, he won't get your point.

The concept of a limit is alien to him.
He doesn't understand that there can be fun to have rules or limits you have to overcome. And that this fun is also determined by having the playerbase follow the same limits and rules.

He and other people have all the right to dislike the system by all means, but there is no reason to be dense_af when it comes to realizing that people prefer different things, and even less reason to start belittling preferences and another player's perception of a game mechanic or customization option

[Sevarin]

i dont switch spec/talents/trinkets very often, but ive also gone fairly casual and just run m+ instead of top 10 us raids.

that said, i LIKE being able to change spec/talents/trinkets when i want to, if i feel a certain situation calls for it. this is one of the main reasons i have issues with covenants.

[Rayzen17]

This isn't about the amount of customization. This is about whether the customization choices are short term or long term. Four covenants are four covenants. It's not magically more than that if you can swap all the time. You just prefer short term customization and I prefer long term customization.

The point, which you refuse to address, is that short term and long term obviously mean different things. You know just as well as I do that if you could swap class at will the game would feel quite different and class would be a lot less important to everyone. There would be a lot less investment and personal identity associated with class.

Again, you don't have to like long term choices, but your weird refusal to recognize that these are subjective opinions and not facts is really weird. I think that spec should be incredibly difficult to change, but I'm not going to pretend that that's something more than my opinion, and I'm not going to pretend that you should like that just because I like that. Grow up a little bit. People can like different things.

You choosing to stay long term like that, versus me staying low-term.. we don't clash.
You can do whatever, i can do whatever.

System being locked - you can do whatever, i can't do whatever.
System being unlocked - you can do whatever, i can do whatever.

The only gain you have is a perceived one, the loss i have is a palpable one.

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You can repeat yourself another 20-30 times, he won't get your point.

The concept of a limit is alien to him.
He doesn't understand that there can be fun to have rules and limits you have to overcome. And that this fun is also determined by having the playerbase follow the same limits and rules.

Conversely there can be fun by switching how often you want.

You can follow your own rules and regulations for fun and not switch, in case the covenants are unlocked.
I can't follow my rules and regulations for fun if the covenants are locked.

[Demeisen]

The point, which you refuse to address, is that short term and long term obviously mean different things. You know just as well as I do that if you could swap class at will the game would feel quite different and class would be a lot less important to everyone. There would be a lot less investment and personal identity associated with class.

In FFXIV, you can switch classes at the click of a button. There aren't even any talents; one machinist is exactly the same as another machinist. And yet, if anything, I'd say FFXIV feels more like an RPG than WoW, and I certainly don't think many people would accuse FFXIV for being not sufficiently like an RPG.

Is locking covenant choices really the best way of making WoW feel more like an RPG?

[Echocho]

You can repeat yourself another 20-30 times, he won't get your point.

The concept of a limit is alien to him.
He doesn't understand that there can be fun to have rules and limits you have to overcome. And that this fun is also determined by having the playerbase follow the same limits and rules.

He and other people have all the right to dislike the system by all means, but there is no reason to be dense_af when it comes to realizing that people prefer different things, and even less reason to start belittling preferences and another player's perception of a game mechanic or customization option

At some point you just have to give up and accept defeat. Some people just don't have the capacity to understand even if you explain it at the level of a toddler.

[Rayzen17]

At some point you just have to give up and accept defeat. Some people just don't have the capacity to understand even if you explain it at the level of a toddler.

What is the palpable gain you have if the covenants are locked? I'm still waiting for that.

Let me put it more simply.
What exactly can't you do if the covenants are unlocked, that you can do if the covenants are locked?

[KrayZ33]

Conversely there can be fun by switching how often you want.

You can follow your own rules and regulations for fun and not switch, in case the covenants are unlocked.
I can't follow my rules and regulations for fun if the covenants are locked.

See what I mean?

What is the palpable gain you have if the covenants are locked? I'm still waiting for that

more fun.

In FFXIV, you can switch classes at the click of a button. There aren't even any talents; one machinist is exactly the same as another machinist. And yet, if anything, I'd say FFXIV feels more like an RPG than WoW, and I certainly don't think many people would accuse FFXIV for being not sufficiently like an RPG.

Is locking covenant choices really the best way of making WoW feel more like an RPG?

The best? Probably not, but is it a way to make it feel more like an RPG? Yes?
Do I want that? Yes.

[Rayzen17]

See what I mean?



more fun.

How are you having more fun?
What would change versus having them unlocked?

[NineSpine]

In FFXIV, you can switch classes at the click of a button. There aren't even any talents; one machinist is exactly the same as another machinist. And yet, if anything, I'd say FFXIV feels more like an RPG than WoW, and I certainly don't think many people would accuse FFXIV for being not sufficiently like an RPG.

Is locking covenant choices really the best way of making WoW feel more like an RPG?

No, it isn't. There are WAY better ways to do that, but we don't live in a perfect world. I'd also say that the class switching in FFXIV isn't that different from swapping characters in wow.

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How are you having more fun?
What would change versus having them unlocked?

I find it fun to make long term decisions that alter my gameplay. A decision that can be changed at the press of a button is not a long term decision. There is no sense of investment, no sense of identity, and no sense of having a special place in the world.

If we can all switch and I choose venthyr and just stay with that, but you swap covenants all the time, we aren't different warlocks with different capabilities. In that case, I am just a warlock that has fewer abilities than you.

[Tyris Flare]

Nothing

Deleted my account upon playing 10 minutes of 8.3. Was playing frost DK. I min/maxed my essences for a single fight in heroic EP and that was it. First and last time I've ever had to min/max for a fight. Continued to top perform without needing to min/max and loading my screen up with blinking lights add-ons

Link logs for this top performance?

[Rayzen17]

No, it isn't. There are WAY better ways to do that, but we don't live in a perfect world. I'd also say that the class switching in FFXIV isn't that different from swapping characters in wow.

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I find it fun to make long term decisions that alter my gameplay. A decision that can be changed at the press of a button is not a long term decision. There is no sense of investment, no sense of identity, and no sense of having a special place in the world.

If we can all switch and I choose venthyr and just stay with that, but you swap covenants all the time, we aren't different warlocks with different capabilities. In that case, I am just a warlock that has fewer abilities than you.

So it's just a perceived gain, okay.

[KrayZ33]

How are you having more fun?
What would change versus having them unlocked?

How do I put it in simpler words than we already did? How will you understand?

I can only try out comparative examples which you will eventually try to "debunk" anyway.

Like... I'm playing UNO with a friend. I follow the rules, because the game is more fun to me by following the rules. I have to decide which cards to hold and which to play. Maybe I'll try to switch colours? But that card is difficult to obtain and rather rare.
He can just put whatever card he wants on the table, the colour doesn't matter.

He will most likely win, he will have fun, I won't, why am I following the rules and not just do the same. To have the "moral high ground"?
Me playing with rules has no meaning in that regard.

Or:

We both get to do what we want at any point in time. The game becomes chaos and that's not fun at all.
I'd like to have limitations and have the playerbase obey them equally.
My game experience is enhanced when I have my prefered form of a feature being implemented and all the players have to abide by the same rule.

You can apply the same to a co-op game. So it's not a "versus" thing btw.
Me being able to overcome boss XY when I follow the rules with my limited arsenal and the other player just doesn't and uses the best weapons available means I'll have less fun doing that boss, not because the other player did better than me, but because the experience would've been different if he so happens to have the perfect counter, or lacking it alltogether.

It's not that big or difficult concept to understand. Is it?

[Echocho]

No, it isn't. There are WAY better ways to do that, but we don't live in a perfect world. I'd also say that the class switching in FFXIV isn't that different from swapping characters in wow.

To be fair it's more like changing specs. A class (or job rather) only have one role in that game. A white mage is always a healer, a bard is always a ranged dps.

There's a lot less to choose from in FFXIV but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's probably easier to balance and they can introduce new classes more often since they only have one spec and no talents.