Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[Kralljin]

I'd agree that the track record isn't good but i don't know if covenants are "broken" like legiondaries, essences, azerite and corruptions are.
Those things came down to accessibility and rng making it horrible, the covenant discussion feels more like: i don't like to actually choose and stick with something that influences my character power.

They were broken in both ways.

The RNG acquisition was precisely an issue because they were so damn imbalanced.
Getting a legendary like Prydaz or Sephuz early on was like a slap in the face in comparison to the most powerful dps legendaries.

Same goes for Corruption, running around with Infinite stars or Echoing void before any nerfs was basically auto win on the meters.
The RNG acqusition was an issue, but it was multiplied by the extreme imbalance.

However, now we're not just talking about output anymore, now we throw in Utility, mobility and outright immunities to certain effects into the mix.

When a company that has previously failed to even balance passive damage procs, now comes around and tries their hands on balancing a system that's limited to a lot more than just output, i'm going to have serious doubts.

[DemonDays]

I'm not sure if you are just ignorant or just continually lying to try and "win":
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch

Now you might argue a spell they buffed isn't the spell you wanted buffed or that it wasn't buffed enough but to say they hardly ever buff and only nerf is clearly a lie.



You don't need to use your cosmetics during this expansion. You are not entitled to them or using them. Do I get to use druid transmogs I unlocked on my paladin? No
because Blizzard designed transmog so that If im not in the same armor type or covenant I can't use it. I'm fully free to roll a rogue or a monk and use most of the leather options I got from my druid though.

Hmm a single persons post versus the thousand of people like you who continually claim that they are afraid they wont be able to compete at a higher level without instant swaps. Are you all lying and can we then throw that argument out as to why covenants need instant swaps? Cause if thats the case then you guys no longer have any excuses as to why they are needed to be instant swaps. You and I are both saying that instant swaps help people get into higher content I'm just saying its a bad thing while you are saying its a necessary thing.

Good lord the amount of reaching in this post is hilarious. Do you often use strawmans?

[kaminaris]

Nope.. you just won't get invited to pugs if you chose a meme covenant.

This is not going to happen, not a single speck of chance. All pug will care is your class, curve and rio score that is it.

[goldlock]

You weren't lying and yet when you look through all the patch notes there are tons of buffs when you said there were almost never any. Hmmm.....

Fine almost never any that mattered if you want to really split hairs. It doesn't help the point your desperately trying to make.

[Shinrael]

I'm sorry but the game is made for the players to enjoy.
If a system isn't enjoyable it has to go, pure and simple.

That's exactly what I am telling you. The players do not know what is enjoyable. Clearly.

A person who is grumpy and unhappy with their own life isn't qualified to determine what is enjoyable for themselves, much less for other people.

[Popokolara]

That's exactly what I am telling you. The players do not know what is enjoyable. Clearly.

A person who is grumpy and unhappy with their own life isn't qualified to determine what is enjoyable for themselves, much less for other people.

did you just assume something about people's lives? And how many? Which exactly? Are all players ignorant of proper design? you make blanket statements with very little substance.

[CrawlFromThePit]

It seems that with Shadowlands we will see one of the most varied gameplay ever in the history of WoW. Thanks to the covenant system, not only will your character have different special abilities depending on your choice, but will also be able to bring unique buffs to certain dungeons. An average player will look at those things and think to themselves "how cool - I can do all those things based on the way I built my character". Unfortunately, all of this entertainment is potentially in jeopardy. Why? Because once again, a small albeit vocal subset of players is campaigning against all those things. They want to diminish the impact of our decisions, make everything uniform and meaningless. Some are downright asking for removal of half the new features. To what end? Supposedly to "level the playing field". To make "high end" mythic+ "fair", to make "mythic raiding at the top end" fair. Many other buzzwords related to competitiveness in the game are being used to excuse the gutting of the very interactive and immersive game feature. Will the game be eroded once again, because of dreams of the vocal minority? Will covenants turn into a cosmetic choice just because Johnny Bravo and his friend want to do a +30 key in SL and don't want to feel they are forced into a certain covenant?

It is very sad, because in a way it reflects the situation in real life. A lot of people ignore elections and can't, or don't want to engage in politics for various reasons. What often ends up happening is a clique of people fighting only for their own interests raises to power and just keeps making the life shit for everyone else. The worst part about it is they usually manage to convince a portion of regular people that the interests of these assholes somehow align with the interests of regular people. The same thing has been happening for a couple years in the WoW community. Blizzard listens too much to "content creators" who like to flip flop in their opinions just to increase viewer counts. Even the more "positive" content creators are afraid to be too outspoken about enjoying the new features because they fear ostracism, trolling and bullying. Content creators don't exist in a vacuum, and if they want to be relevant, they have to cooperate with others to an extent. The "positive" content creators are only as positive as the "community overlords" allow them to usually.

Can the regular players do nothing against all that? Can we try to rally the casual players to voice their positive opinions on the forums? I know I will be encouraging people who usually lay low to speak up. As players of WoW, we can't let the game be hijacked by top50 raiding guilds and top10 mythic+ teams. Let's not let them destroy our fun.

Here's the thing. There 2 types of players. Those who understand that some design decisions have consequences that negatively affect gameplay, and those who just play the game no matter what it is.

The concept of "fighting for those who don't talk" is just like punching air, there is no fight and no enemy, they will play anyway.

However, if Blizzard design the game in a way that makes the top dudes and streamers happy, then everyone is happy. The turbo casuals will check out a stream, see people being happy, they'll follow the world first race, see people happy, they'll check the arena streams, see people happy. The casuals will not start thinking "oh these damn toxic players forcing blizzard to design the game just for them, I want my unbalanced stuff and play my DH with all my friends who also all play DH reeeeeeeeee".

You're inventing a group of players in your head that don't really exist or are in such small number that they are irrelevant to the community and success of the game.

That being said, I don't think removing feature is really the goal of anyone, it's just that no one trusts Blizzard to balance these things properly (based on 15 years of disgusting absolute failure) so people skip the step of asking them to do things right and just tell them to completely remove that stuff. That's not the players fault, Blizzard should just take the time to balance things instead of releasing xpacks before they're done, it's on them to think "can we balance this?" and if they can't then just don't put it in the game at all, what's the fucking point? It's not finished then don't put it in the game, it's only finished when it's balanced, if you don't want to take the time to balance then might as well not even start designing that shit.

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Are all players ignorant of proper design?

Not all, but most. Keep in mind there's people who think the talent system comes with the design of each individual talent and cannot process the fact that it would be possible to have the talents of today in the system of early WoW, or vice versa. Some people are even ignorant to the point that they believe the drop rate of legendaries in legion and their individual design is all ONE system.

Even worse, there's people who think class design in Vanilla was well made. Let that sink in for a minute.

[Shinrael]

did you just assume something about people's lives? And how many? Which exactly? Are all players ignorant of proper design? you make blanket statements with very little substance.

"The players don't enjoy the system, so it has to go" - talk about "blanket statements with very little substance".

As for assumptions - you can look at these forums and see for yourself. Happy people don't go whining about and nitpicking every little thing. The forums are littered with rants from people who supposedly quit yet always keep coming back because apparently WoW was not the source of their discontent (hint: it is within themselves).

[rrayy]

Fun fact: the vocal minority, as you put it, are actually affected by the way the system is set up, so of course they would like it changed to benefit them. The other playerbase, I guess we can call them the “butt hurt ultra casuals who cry because the vocal minority won’t carry them thru everything they feel entitled to” group have no negative impact from the change the vocal minority want to happen.
Everyone who is against the change are 1 of 2 types of people:
1). Those who want to feel like they can make a choice and not be ridiculed for making a bad one when it comes to performance.
2). Those who are happy the vocal minority, again as you put it, are upset about this issue.

As a casual gamer, the ability to change your choice as needed for specific content has no bearing on your gameplay. Unless maybe you’re scared/upset that being able to change means you won’t get invited by the people who want to excel in all fields of the game as much as they can.
Let’s face it, just because you find it fun to be locked into something doesn’t mean everyone else does. It might be hard to believe, but some people actually have fun by having the freedom to change things around to suit the needs of what they are doing.

You do know what the word "minority" stands for right? That means far more people do not agre with than actually agree with you. It's also funny that you call those that disagree with you "entitled" when you are the one acting entitled by acting like you are the one Blizzard should be catering to. You are the one demanding to be given access to everything and are unwilling to have yoru choice mean something by having to actually make a sacrifice. You do not have to be completely optimal to complete all content. If you are a god of a player you think you are, you should be able to succeed even when not optimal.

Let's also face it, just because you don't find it fun to be locked into a choice doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. God forbid you have to make an actual choice and have to deal with the consequences of your choice.

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I'm sorry but the game is made for the players to enjoy.
If a system isn't enjoyable it has to go, pure and simple.

ANd who is the arbiter of whether it is enjoyable or not. Because you may think it is unenjoyable, but others think it is very enjoyable. So basically what you are saying is "If I don't enjoy it, it needs to go". Well, you are not the only one playing the game and many will enjoy it as is.

[Krakan]

I mean I'm like at the 1.6% mark according to raider IO (0.3% for spec). I'll admit I haven't raided to any meaningful level (CE and equivalent) in a long time. Mostly because it didn't want to commit to a set schedule. But that's besides the point.

I'm not implying that CE raiders aren't skilled, just that the ones who cleared it early are more skilled than those who cleared it late. But both have CE status.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

That UHDK in that last report is a special kind of special.

It's odd how only after a hard confrontation we get to a useful discussion.

My issue with this system is the toll it takes on casual players who have gotten the short end of the stick for years. I have a fairly set but limited time to play. I can hit ce fairly early usually around world 200 then always transitioned in pvp after. I never cared for mythic plus beyond loot cap.

I simply can't do that anymore as my class has vital talents tied into covenant that isn't useful for dps in pve. Add to that blizzards knee jerk reaction to over nerf and at then end of the day I think it is going to become painfully apparent that locking respecs behind a korean style grind was a bad idea.

[Swnem]

This is not going to happen, not a single speck of chance. All pug will care is your class, curve and rio score that is it.

I think you are being naive here.
The tools will surely track covenants too. It is likely there will be a meta covenant if the differences aren't minimal and if they see you don't have it, it will imediatly generate a judgement of your choices and likely lead to rejection.
Remember these things trickle down. Of course, if you play with friends, it's fine, if they don't mind picking up the slack.

But hey, they said they were gonna try to balance things but the class abilities are completely different, so it's gonna be a problem.

I honestly would like to take Kyrian on my Ret Paladin, but legendary + night fae ability that reduces cooldowns synergise wildly. There is no way the other covenants can compete. It's more wings uptime. An AoE judgement a 4m cd that just got nerfed actually and a double finisher every 30 seconds at the cost of 1 holy power. There is no comparison. As Ret, as it stands if you don't take night fae you are seriously gimped. This is not a small 1 or 2% difference. I don't know exactly but it will be huge.

Any Ret not running night fae will quickly become a meme. You can be sure of that. Was just an example. I am sure tools like rio will make such things obvious.

Don't misinterpret though. I don't think they should make covenant swapping easier, but maybe the ability choice should be more fluid or they should redesign skills and balance them.

[Eapoe]

You do know what the word "minority" stands for right? That means far more people do not agre with than actually agree with you. It's also funny that you call those that disagree with you "entitled" when you are the one acting entitled by acting like you are the one Blizzard should be catering to. You are the one demanding to be given access to everything and are unwilling to have yoru choice mean something by having to actually make a sacrifice. You do not have to be completely optimal to complete all content. If you are a god of a player you think you are, you should be able to succeed even when not optimal.

Let's also face it, just because you don't find it fun to be locked into a choice doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. God forbid you have to make an actual choice and have to deal with the consequences of your choice.

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ANd who is the arbiter of whether it is enjoyable or not. Because you may think it is unenjoyable, but others think it is very enjoyable. So basically what you are saying is "If I don't enjoy it, it needs to go". Well, you are not the only one playing the game and many will enjoy it as is.

Reading comprehension, do you have it? I never once picked a side. I never stated a Blizzard should cater to me.
My use of vocal minority was in response to how the person I responded to used it. I never stated it’s who I view as vocal minority or not.
As I’ve also stated, if the min/max players got what they wanted and have freely swappable Covenants so they can be optimal for all content then it doesn’t affect the casual players, or the players that make a choice based on any reason other than min/max, at all.
I’ve also never stated what I find fun. I have pointed out that just because someone thinks being locked into a choice is fun doesn’t mean all players find it fun. In fact, some people find being optimal and trying to be the best in all aspects of the game they enjoy as fun.
So again, comprehension should come first, otherwise you make arguments against something that was never stated.

[Popokolara]

"The players don't enjoy the system, so it has to go" - talk about "blanket statements with very little substance".

As for assumptions - you can look at these forums and see for yourself. Happy people don't go whining about and nitpicking every little thing. The forums are littered with rants from people who supposedly quit yet always keep coming back because apparently WoW was not the source of their discontent (hint: it is within themselves).

Thats also a blanket statement, some people definately do like it, you both guys just seem so absolute.

[Azharok]

It's odd how only after a hard confrontation we get to a useful discussion.

My issue with this system is the toll it takes on casual players who have gotten the short end of the stick for years. I have a fairly set but limited time to play. I can hit ce fairly early usually around world 200 then always transitioned in pvp after. I never cared for mythic plus beyond loot cap.

I simply can't do that anymore as my class has vital talents tied into covenant that isn't useful for dps in pve. Add to that blizzards knee jerk reaction to over nerf and at then end of the day I think it is going to become painfully apparent that locking respecs behind a korean style grind was a bad idea.

I suppose it all comes down to how "big" the population of high achievers (early CE, Gladiators and Giga key pushers) is. And if those same people compete in opposing content with regards to covenants.

If the raiderio number is anything to go by there are 4,5 million toons (not players) that have stepped foot in M+, the 1% of M+ is less than 50k players (give or take). Should a whole system be changed for those 1% ? Disregarding the "trickle down effect" that has been debated to death.

I'm mainly arguing the necessacity of 100% optimised play in all forms of content rather than "the community will demand XYZ when doing ABC content". I don't think specialisation (with regards to M+/Raids/PvP) is a bad thing. That remains my opinion. If they unlock covenants, we'll all just swap stuff around depending on content, with no second thought about it. Like we've done since TBC with easier respecs. (Might have been a later xpac, I don't remember know). But I still feel that there is a disconnect from the "casual" crowd (and by that I mean people that don't raid past HC, and are in essence average in all forms of content) about what it takes for CE raiders and Gladiators to accomplish what they do, and that somehow copy/pasting their loadouts will carry them more than actually taking the time to learn the spec and press buttons in the correct order.

But as per your personnal experience, nothing is really preventing you from picking the raiding covenant, get CE, then grind out the pvp one, and go back and forth in this manner between patches. Not saying it a good solution, and I guess it would largely depend on the actual time it would take.

Blizz is making changes on a daily basis, we can only hope number crunchers manage to cypher through all of this before release so everyone has a clue to where they should go. I'm not denying that we can't "choose" whatever in this game anymore, hasn't been the case since TBC. But it would be nice if blizz managed to make stuff "good" and "better" and not just "this is the only thing you'll ever use cauz the rest is trash".

I guess the take away is : you don't need to hyper-optimise to complete all forms of content UNLESS you want to be first.

[Rayzen17]

That's exactly what I am telling you. The players do not know what is enjoyable. Clearly.

A person who is grumpy and unhappy with their own life isn't qualified to determine what is enjoyable for themselves, much less for other people.

You're just making assumptions at this point.
What a player considers is enjoyable for him, means that it's enjoyable for him.

Don't jump through imaginary hoops thinking you know what's up with that player.

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This is not going to happen, not a single speck of chance. All pug will care is your class, curve and rio score that is it.

Okay, think what you want. Ignore the fact that some of the covenants are bad for certain class/specs.

If you don't believe me go look at this recent feedback survey thread Blizzard initiated: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-survey/616438

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ANd who is the arbiter of whether it is enjoyable or not. Because you may think it is unenjoyable, but others think it is very enjoyable. So basically what you are saying is "If I don't enjoy it, it needs to go". Well, you are not the only one playing the game and many will enjoy it as is.

Exactly the same players that decided that the following original system implementations were not enjoyable: legiondaries, azerite, essences, corruptions.

Got a problem with that?

[Shinrael]

You're just making assumptions at this point.
What a player considers is enjoyable for him, means that it's enjoyable for him.

Don't jump through imaginary hoops thinking you know what's up with that player.

You would have been so very 200% percent correct if not for the WoW forums which kept begging Blizzard for an endgame progression system and then ranted the shit out of the forums asking for their removal.

And yes, it comes down to different opinions, but then, can we really say that the community as a whole dislikes covenants? If the anti-endgame progression system vocal minority is only vocal when there is an endgame progression system, and the pro-endgame progression system vocal minority is only vocal when there is no endgame progression system, who are you to say the same won't happen with covenants? The people who dislike the idea are vocal now and the people who like it will be vocal once the covenants are homogenized/removed/"fixed"/etc. Someone will always be unhappy and at that point the forums are no longer a meter for player satisfaction.

And thus "what a player considers enjoyable" remains a mystery that neither me, nor you, nor Blizzard can decipher via the forums and you have no right to claim being in the majority.

[Rayzen17]

You would have been so very 200% percent correct if not for the WoW forums which kept begging Blizzard for an endgame progression system and then ranted the shit out of the forums asking for their removal.

And yes, it comes down to different opinions, but then, can we really say that the community as a whole dislikes covenants? If the anti-endgame progression system vocal minority is only vocal when there is an endgame progression system, and the pro-endgame progression system vocal minority is only vocal when there is no endgame progression system, who are you to say the same won't happen with covenants? The people who dislike the idea are vocal now and the people who like it will be vocal once the covenants are homogenized/removed/"fixed"/etc. Someone will always be unhappy and at that point the forums are no longer a meter for player satisfaction.

And thus "what a player considers enjoyable" remains a mystery that neither me, nor you, nor Blizzard can decipher via the forums and you have no right to claim being in the majority.

The thing is that Blizzard will acknowledge the ones who make a fuss the most. If they see subs dropping there's an even greater incentive.
And if you think a silent majority is one side or the other, all i can say is that it's like voting, if you don't vote, you're not part of the decision.
In wow's case you can vote even after this is live, so it depends how satisfied/dissatisfied one another is.

So i guess... when the covenant system is going to be live, we'll see which part is more vocal.

[rrayy]

You're just making assumptions at this point.
What a player considers is enjoyable for him, means that it's enjoyable for him.

Don't jump through imaginary hoops thinking you know what's up with that player.

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Okay, think what you want. Ignore the fact that some of the covenants are bad for certain class/specs.

If you don't believe me go look at this recent feedback survey thread Blizzard initiated: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-survey/616438

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Exactly the same players that decided that the following original system implementations were not enjoyable: legiondaries, azerite, essences, corruptions.

Got a problem with that?

NO. What I have a problem with is you acting like your vocal minority is the majority of players and thus BLizzard needs to automatically do what you want. Because all you are saying is "If I don't like it, it is bad for the game and it shouldn't be there". That is beyond elitist.

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The thing is that Blizzard will acknowledge the ones who make a fuss the most. If they see subs dropping there's an even greater incentive.
And if you think a silent majority is one side or the other, all i can say is that it's like voting, if you don't vote, you're not part of the decision.
In wow's case you can vote even after this is live, so it depends how satisfied/dissatisfied one another is.

So i guess... when the covenant system is going to be live, we'll see which part is more vocal.

The ahters are always more vocal because the one who like it are, you know,actually playing the game. You are in a vocal minority no matter how you try to spin things

[Rayzen17]

NO. What I have a problem with is you acting like your vocal minority is the majority of players and thus BLizzard needs to automatically do what you want. Because all you are saying is "If I don't like it, it is bad for the game and it shouldn't be there". That is beyond elitist.

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The ahters are always more vocal because the one who like it are, you know,actually playing the game. You are in a vocal minority no matter how you try to spin things

Nah, you guys are in the vocal minority in this case. Nobody cares if you get stuck in a covenant or not, but you seem to care that we can freely switch.
So stop being a hypocrite for a decision that doesn't involve you.

P.S. Also, your sig is cringe... like seriously.

[kaminaris]

Okay, think what you want. Ignore the fact that some of the covenants are bad for certain class/specs.

If you don't believe me go look at this recent feedback survey thread Blizzard initiated: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-survey/616438

Dude, people will check class, ilvl and rio. Just like now nobody checks corruptions essences and azerite traits which combined can be like 20-30% of your dps.
Not to mention difference between mediocre and very good player is alone about 50% (depending on specs).
Fight rng can easily screw you for like 30%.

Nah, you guys are in the vocal minority in this case. Nobody cares if you get stuck in a covenant or not, but you seem to care that we can freely switch.
So stop being a hypocrite for a decision that doesn't involve you.

P.S. Also, your sig is cringe... like seriously.

You are another example of player that has horizon of 1 degree. It does involve practically all players.
Just because you cannot imagine how others value things in game it doesn't mean having hotswappable covenants "doesn't involve them".

Take example from me. I don't give a single flying fuck about how covenants will be switched and for sure I would benefit from having them hotswappable.
But I do not want that simply because I do understand that for others, having them like talent row basically destroys entire feature making them meaningless.