No Preach...

[Bbrigham]

Youre wrong. And here's why. I watched your most recent video, about the covenant "imbalances ". Heres the thing. This is an mmoRPG. A roleplaying game. What makes a great role playing game, is CHOICE. Our character makes an important decision, on which cause to fight for. Which to put their strength behind. And, to paraphrase the immortal Syndrome,"When all choices are the same...they don't matter". Preach, your words: you don't care about the story. You don't care about transmog. Without those things, as said by a Blizzard Game Developer, the game is basically a math equation. That's NOT an RPG. Speaking as someone who has made the Lore my area of expertise-as you have made the mechanics-Choice is important. It is VITAL. You, and those in your camp, want all abilities, all flavor abilities, all the things that make up CHOICE-to be irrelevant. Its like going to a restaurant, and looking at the menu, and no matter what you order, its all the same grey goop. It makes PERFECT sense for the Night Fae to be able to move vines and such in a dungeon. It speaks to lore, to who they are as a people, and is flavor. I am not a Mythic raider. I've raided Mythic, but its not my cup. I love the lore of the game, PASSIONATELY. And Transmog-what I wear, whom I represent-it matters. The powers given, the abilities inferred-it matters that only one covenant has the blink ability, or the spirit animal ability, or even an owl butler-if all covenant had the SAME things, they would be the SAME GREY GOO No, Preach, I wholeheartedly, passionately disagree. This isn't aspersions cast on your knowledge of the game play mechanics. This is a player who has that level of knowledge of the Lore. The Story. Which, you said you do NOT care about. So, to close, yes. Choice matters. Not in the minescule dps increase. But in the fact of it matters WHY WE FIGHT. - PANDAREN EMPEROR

[korijenkins]

Story doesn't matter to everyone, the same as apparently balance doesn't matter to you.

By opposing fluid covenants, you expose yourself as a hypocrite who wants to have what you want, whilst denying others.

[Bbrigham]

Story doesn't matter to everyone, the same as apparently balance doesn't matter to you.

By opposing fluid covenants, you expose yourself as a hypocrite who wants to have what you want, whilst denying others.

My rebuttal would be, this is my viewpoint. As shared by millions of others. Preaches viewpoint is in the minority. Does not devalue his personal opinion, it just means most of us want story vs mechanics.

[msmollymillions]

Story doesn't matter to everyone, the same as apparently balance doesn't matter to you.

By opposing fluid covenants, you expose yourself as a hypocrite who wants to have what you want, whilst denying others.

Exactly! If they wanted to really make covenants a choice with less balance the best would of been having soulbinds be tied your character from leveling and let you use any of them, put in a new talent row(and hell give us 4 instead of 3 choices) and then leave the utility abilities as part of the covenants with their aesthetics. Even if soulbinds were tied to covenants it would be as bad as the current system where some skills(Mage Venthyr) might work great for PvP but are utterly useless in PvE. Some classes are going to be super hamstrung if they make the wrong choice in many different situations.

[Cosmic Janitor]

So are we using this forum now to make random responses to streamers? Post it under his youtube video or something or create a structured thread where you can discuss about this (or better use one of the 20 we alrady have for that topic).

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Okay? Why did you make a thread about some guy's youtube video?

[Wyattbw09]

Kind of a misplaced thread? Does not Preach have a comments section on his Youtube channel? Its just that having not seen the original video I'm not sure what you are exactly rebutting?

[Bbrigham]

So mages should do the exact same dps as survival hunters? No? Well why not?? Choices matter. And in any RPG, there are choices that are STORY important. They may not grant max dps (le gasp!) But they matter in terms of story

[Frolk]

Youre wrong. And here's why. I watched your most recent video, about the covenant "imbalances ". Heres the thing. This is an mmoRPG. A roleplaying game. What makes a great role playing game, is CHOICE. Our character makes an important decision, on which cause to fight for. Which to put their strength behind. And, to paraphrase the immortal Syndrome,"When all choices are the same...they don't matter". Preach, your words: you don't care about the story. You don't care about transmog. Without those things, as said by a Blizzard Game Developer, the game is basically a math equation. That's NOT an RPG. Speaking as someone who has made the Lore my area of expertise-as you have made the mechanics-Choice is important. It is VITAL. You, and those in your camp, want all abilities, all flavor abilities, all the things that make up CHOICE-to be irrelevant. Its like going to a restaurant, and looking at the menu, and no matter what you order, its all the same grey goop. It makes PERFECT sense for the Night Fae to be able to move vines and such in a dungeon. It speaks to lore, to who they are as a people, and is flavor. I am not a Mythic raider. I've raided Mythic, but its not my cup. I love the lore of the game, PASSIONATELY. And Transmog-what I wear, whom I represent-it matters. The powers given, the abilities inferred-it matters that only one covenant has the blink ability, or the spirit animal ability, or even an owl butler-if all covenant had the SAME things, they would be the SAME GREY GOO No, Preach, I wholeheartedly, passionately disagree. This isn't aspersions cast on your knowledge of the game play mechanics. This is a player who has that level of knowledge of the Lore. The Story. Which, you said you do NOT care about. So, to close, yes. Choice matters. Not in the minescule dps increase. But in the fact of it matters WHY WE FIGHT. - PANDAREN EMPEROR

Please format your post, nobody is gonna read that BLOCK of text.

[BeepBoo]

"Hurr durr thIs Is MmO *RPG********" like that has any fucking meaning close to what you're attributing to it OP.

No, OP. Your view of what it means to be an RPG or MMO are flawed. You can have a game that is properly balanced while also having important decisions. You can also have plenty of things that are open to re-choosing without needing to roll a whole new character.

[Bbrigham]

In the video he referred to THIS forum specifically. He reads it, and referred to it

[Zarithras]

Many people have been arguing for covenants to dictate special ability and transmog - most cosmetic stuff. The argument then is that the things that affect your performance, like the covenant ability and soulbinds, should be swappable freely. Is that not the best of both worlds? If lore and transmog matter to you and performance matters to someone else, this solves the issue.

How do you feel about your character having the exact same abilities and talents as another character of X class? If that hasn't bothered you before, covenant abilities and soulbinds being fluid shouldn't bother you either.

[Capt Bob]

Please use paragraphs in the future.

And even Preach said that there are several people are "lore fanatics" or "passionate about lore" that thinks that the covenant system is a bad idea, because in their eyes it does not make sense. People often use the RPG argument as well, and i have seen a lot of people use "ascendancy" in Path of Exile as a example. And i have a lot of hours in Path of Exile. Long story short, Ascendancy in Path of Exile is basically what you would call a sub-class. It heavily enhances / changes the gameplay and is unlocked later (You get last two "points" in the end-game normally), However, you are still very much able to change this, and you get a good feeling of it before you reach end-game, as the last two points (out of 8) are typically just a small DPS / survival increase and doesn't change much.

In contrast, the covenant system is something you get to try out, at lvl 51 - 52, and you only get to try one of them, in a very small window. This goes on for the leveling zones on your way up to max level and endgame, where you are supposed to make a "permanent" decision based on just a few hours (i expect 2 - 3 hours at most while leveling) testing the abilities, and then you only get to really test them in questing.

This is the problem. It is not going to be a choice, even for you that love the lore "passionately", unless you are fine with being "locked out" of even doing medium to low keys/ raids. It was very noticeable in Battle For Azeroth when it came to classes. Even the low-keys did not want to bring anything out of the "meta", mostly even if you had high score from your "main". I love following the story (biggest reason i've continued to play wow for so many years), and i welcome story decisions as well, where it makes sense, But i firmly do not believe that it should make a large impact in balancing, unless it is changeable easily.

[Maljinwo]

Ah yes. Take that youtuber
I shall reply in a forum thread you may not even see

[skorgg]

The thread should be closed. Post this on his YouTube video. This forum is for discussing Shadowlands and not how you feel about someone's opinion in their YouTube video. Hook up moderation access and I will purge these forums of all this repetitive crap.

[bloodwulf]

So mages should do the exact same dps as survival hunters? No? Well why not?? Choices matter. And in any RPG, there are choices that are STORY important. They may not grant max dps (le gasp!) But they matter in terms of story

The story has been largely irrelevant since MOP. I would rather gameplay CHOICE versus forced into an decision of Aesthetics VS Power. Also lore can easily explain us getting the option to chose our ability. Here is how:

We level 50-60 meeting and interacting with all the covenants. At the end of that arc, the covenants have all given us a sample of their gifts (the powers) and ask us to commit to who we will join. We are all fighting the same existential threat (Jailer) so they all want us to win, and should be willing to empower all of us.

Blizzards reasoning to prohibit this choice is asine and just a tribute to their arrogance. Also, this is not something that affects the minority, this will negatively impact RPers\Casuals\Hardcore all the same. Preach isn't some pariah just because he put it into words, look to the forums, to these forums, to the youtube comments, most everyone that has investigated this design decision has issues with it. I want the aesthetics of the Venthyr but their skill for my class isn't just bad, its next to useless in the content i enjoy.

#PullTheRipcord

[Unholyground]

You realize that they will eventually loosen the restrictions as they always do when people complain enough, just keep complaining and it will happen in the first major patch and then over time you will see the only thing you will be locked to is your cosmetic and zone related rewards. They have to stick to their guns like always for the first bit then be like "LOOK WHAT WE DID, It WAS TOTALLY OUR UNINFLUENCED DECISION TOO!" lmao.

[Adamas102]

Story doesn't matter to everyone, the same as apparently balance doesn't matter to you.

By opposing fluid covenants, you expose yourself as a hypocrite who wants to have what you want, whilst denying others.

That's a lazy argument that can be applied to most complaints that people have about the game. Can't make everyone happy all the time.

The game is designed so that being 100% min/maxed at all times is whether through RNG or through player choice. It's not a matter of players denying others because they aren't developing the game. Give all the feedback you want, but if this is how Blizzard wants to do it then it's a valid design choice.

[MrLachyG]

Ah yes. Take that youtuber
I shall reply in a forum thread you may not even see

In OP’s defence, Preach says he does visit here among other places. He will probably notice this thread considering his name is in the title

[SecretAgent]

Youre wrong. And here's why. I watched your most recent video, about the covenant "imbalances ". Heres the thing. This is an mmoRPG. A roleplaying game. What makes a great role playing game, is CHOICE. Our character makes an important decision, on which cause to fight for. Which to put their strength behind. And, to paraphrase the immortal Syndrome,"When all choices are the same...they don't matter". Preach, your words: you don't care about the story. You don't care about transmog. Without those things, as said by a Blizzard Game Developer, the game is basically a math equation. That's NOT an RPG. Speaking as someone who has made the Lore my area of expertise-as you have made the mechanics-Choice is important. It is VITAL. You, and those in your camp, want all abilities, all flavor abilities, all the things that make up CHOICE-to be irrelevant. Its like going to a restaurant, and looking at the menu, and no matter what you order, its all the same grey goop. It makes PERFECT sense for the Night Fae to be able to move vines and such in a dungeon. It speaks to lore, to who they are as a people, and is flavor. I am not a Mythic raider. I've raided Mythic, but its not my cup. I love the lore of the game, PASSIONATELY. And Transmog-what I wear, whom I represent-it matters. The powers given, the abilities inferred-it matters that only one covenant has the blink ability, or the spirit animal ability, or even an owl butler-if all covenant had the SAME things, they would be the SAME GREY GOO No, Preach, I wholeheartedly, passionately disagree. This isn't aspersions cast on your knowledge of the game play mechanics. This is a player who has that level of knowledge of the Lore. The Story. Which, you said you do NOT care about. So, to close, yes. Choice matters. Not in the minescule dps increase. But in the fact of it matters WHY WE FIGHT. - PANDAREN EMPEROR

Its not a good type of choice and thats the problem

You want your covenant choice to matter to you? Fine then DONT SWITCH! No one is forcing you to... But why you want to deny others the chance to play the game they way they enjoy?


Being locked to a covenant means you experience 25% of the content... while others prefer to explore 100% of it . all covenants, their abilities, their traits, their lore, their xmogs...




If they make covenant switchable easily Without Punishment everyone gets what they want

You can stay in same covenant all expansion(but it seems you cant hold urself from switching lol)
Others can switch and explore different things

Its a win-win...

All the RPG bullshit and Meaningful choice buzzwords are just excuses


Having to grind something to switch to "start play the way you want" is BAD and never fun