SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[azkhane]

I don't think the operative can be anyone we know. Again, this missive was written when the Titans were still united and Sargeras uncorrupted, which means this was at a time when the Black Empire still ruled Azeroth (The other Titans stumbled upon Azeroth after their initial disagreement with Sargeras, which should not have happened at that point in time).
And we are talking about a point in time here, not about some passage of time, so wether time flows differently in the Shadowlands changes nothing about the point in time this was written.
I don't think this can be Bwonsamdi or Ysera (or any of the Dragonflights), because they came after the Black Empire.

Also, Bwonsamdi seems to be in a bit of a pickle with all the Death-Ladies. The Winter Queen is not as hostile towards him as Eyir, but almost. I guess he was already a trickster when he was still alive
I did not think the Winter Queen is hostile to all the other Loa, I mean she is the one responsible for their rebirth after all. When she says she doesn't want to be involved in their squabbles, it's only logical I think. If they fight, they fight over power in the mortal plane and she can't have any part in that. Because no matter who wins or loses, or who does 'evil' or 'good', she will have to rebirth them all, she can't be taking sides.

wasn't bwonsamdi a dark troll that prelates the first troll empire and the night elves? (thats one of the theories of bwonsamdi origins), trolls are the older mortal race in azeroth, they already existed as a race in the times of the black empire, likely the race trolls evolved from existed way before the formation of the black empire in azeroth (another theory is bwonsamdi being a member of that race).

also every single operative/agent on that book is already known(aside from the book writer)

[formerShandalay]

wasn't bwonsamdi a dark troll that prelates the first troll empire and the night elves? (thats one of the theories of bwonsamdi origins), trolls are the older mortal race in azeroth, they already existed as a race in the times of the black empire, likely the race trolls evolved from existed way before the formation of the black empire in azeroth (another theory is bwonsamdi being a member of that race).

also every single operative/agent on that book is already known(aside from the book writer)

We do not yet know at what time Bwonsamdi was made a Loa, only that it was Mueh'zala that made him one. I was sure I saw something about it being 10k years ago, but I simply can't find the video I think I remember seeing that in at the moment. I'll link it, if I find it.
But still, at the time when this missive was written, Sargeras was still with the Pantheon and it was before he encountered those dreadlords on the void planet (because that was his downfall and the point at which the Titan Pantheon was fractured). And by that time, the operative was already gaining the favor of the entity in the Shadowlands. I think the chance is very low that it was Bwonsamdi. Not zero, but I think he's much too recent for that, even if he is 20k years old.

But I just remembered, we do have a dreadlord working with or at least benefiting from Mueh'zala's actions. We just don't know which disguise he takes when he's not his dreadlord self. It's this guy: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Xaraax. In the 'Traveler'-series, he messes with lots of Loa and supports Mueh'zala.

[Darknessvamp]

We do not yet know at what time Bwonsamdi was made a Loa, only that it was Mueh'zala that made him one. I was sure I saw something about it being 10k years ago, but I simply can't find the video I think I remember seeing that in at the moment. I'll link it, if I find it.
But still, at the time when this missive was written, Sargeras was still with the Pantheon and it was before he encountered those dreadlords on the void planet (because that was his downfall and the point at which the Titan Pantheon was fractured). And by that time, the operative was already gaining the favor of the entity in the Shadowlands. I think the chance is very low that it was Bwonsamdi. Not zero, but I think he's much too recent for that, even if he is 20k years old.

But I just remembered, we do have a dreadlord working with or at least benefiting from Mueh'zala's actions. We just don't know which disguise he takes when he's not his dreadlord self. It's this guy: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Xaraax. In the 'Traveler'-series, he messes with lots of Loa and supports Mueh'zala.

I'm not sure if the events of the Traveler's series are supposed to be taken as canon. I'm aware that some of the characters in them are confirmed as existing but there are major timeline and event inconsistencies with stuff that happens in them such as characters being killed in the books but still being alive in expansions after their death had supposedly happened and objects and settlements being in certain places or states that don't match up with the game around the timeline that the books guess at taking place.

[Cherry123]

where did the beta story end?

[UndedoKoleda]

I don't think the operative can be anyone we know. Again, this missive was written when the Titans were still united and Sargeras uncorrupted, which means this was at a time when the Black Empire still ruled Azeroth (The other Titans stumbled upon Azeroth after their initial disagreement with Sargeras, which should not have happened at that point in time).
And we are talking about a point in time here, not about some passage of time, so wether time flows differently in the Shadowlands changes nothing about the point in time this was written.
I don't think this can be Bwonsamdi or Ysera (or any of the Dragonflights), because they came after the Black Empire.

Also, Bwonsamdi seems to be in a bit of a pickle with all the Death-Ladies. The Winter Queen is not as hostile towards him as Eyir, but almost. I guess he was already a trickster when he was still alive
I did not think the Winter Queen is hostile to all the other Loa, I mean she is the one responsible for their rebirth after all. When she says she doesn't want to be involved in their squabbles, it's only logical I think. If they fight, they fight over power in the mortal plane and she can't have any part in that. Because no matter who wins or loses, or who does 'evil' or 'good', she will have to rebirth them all, she can't be taking sides.

Ok, I've seen this mentioned several times already, could someone explain how did this notion came to be?

If anything, the text possibly makes reference to Lothraxion infiltrating the ranks of the Light, which as far as I know, happened at a point in time when the Burning Legion was already a thing, meaning Sargeras was already parted with the other Titans.

Plus, before encountering Sargeras, weren't the Natherezim strangers to Fel and more involved with Void? The text clearly says "Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one." I read is as: they were forced to "blend in", in the Legion, by consuming Fel.

[Darknessvamp]

Ok, I've seen this mentioned several times already, could someone explain how did this notion came to be?

If anything, the text possibly makes reference to Lothraxion infiltrating the ranks of the Light, which as far as I know, happened at a point in time when the Burning Legion was already a thing, meaning Sargeras was already parted with the other Titans.

Plus, before encountering Sargeras, weren't the Natherezim strangers to Fel and more involved with Void? The text clearly says "Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one." I read is as: they were forced to "blend in", in the Legion, by consuming Fel.

It's because the missive largely details their deceptions as things they have planned to do rather than having already done them but it does come off as inconsistent as it mentions them already having "agents woven into their fabric". e.g.

We anticipate that certain of our targets will be more challenging to topple than others. But each is prone to manipulation in different ways, and our agents have already woven themselves into their very fabric. (the odd line)

In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see. Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it. Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing. (still united) ...

Similar to the titans, the naaru and their keepers are singular in purpose. Their adherence to a linear path is an obvious shortcoming. They savor nothing more than being proved right, so if they believe they have converted one of us to their precious Light, they will trust that agent implicitly. (hasn't happened yet)

To be fair there hasn't been a lot of pre-Sargeras exploration of the Natherezim and all we really know is that they were proper demons at the time that Sargeras met them as the writers themselves stated they were the demon race (as in natural demons, none of the new "we were actually something else that absorbed Fel at some point like every single 'demon' in WoW up to this point" revelation) and were just more demons that he was hunting who ended up telling him about the Old Gods and their Dark Titan plans. Which in turn lead to him thinking using the captured Demons as his army was a good idea for some reason.

Even if we go back to the older lore when Eredar were also natural demons, Dreadlords were still native demons.

[formerShandalay]

Ok, I've seen this mentioned several times already, could someone explain how did this notion came to be?

If anything, the text possibly makes reference to Lothraxion infiltrating the ranks of the Light, which as far as I know, happened at a point in time when the Burning Legion was already a thing, meaning Sargeras was already parted with the other Titans.

Plus, before encountering Sargeras, weren't the Natherezim strangers to Fel and more involved with Void? The text clearly says "Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one." I read is as: they were forced to "blend in", in the Legion, by consuming Fel.

What gives the impression that this missive was written before Sargeras's fall is the line about the titans in the missive:

"....
In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see.

Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it.

Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing.
...."

It says there, they are united in purpose and vulnerable to fracturing, which kind of implies that their untity has not yet been fractured.
It seemingly spells out what we already know happened next, they showed Sargeras something that he can not comprehend (and thus, not order) and he went nuts, fracturing the titans' unity and then even went on to kill them.

The Lothraxion thing is not implied to have happened yet, just as with Sargeras the writer talks about the weak point and how they can exploit it, so I'd say that was why Lothraxion was sent and infiltrated the Light's forces (if he is indeed not truly turned but still an agent.)

This missive lays out plans and possibilities, with only one of them already being acted upon, which is the operative acting in the Shadowlands and already gaining trust. The rest is more like 'plans for future infiltrations'.
But we, of course, see now how it played out afterwards. We know Sargeras's subversion went according to plan, the Light thing seemingly went according to plan, the Shadowlands mission seems to have gone according to the plan (because the Loa are indeed being turned within Ardenweald, right now) and we know that the Old God/void lord infiltration seemingly did not go as planned, because they now know about it (and have warned us).
But in the perspective of the missive itself all of this is still in the future and not yet implemented (with one exception, as mentioned above), which to me implies it was written before all of it happens.

[masterjc]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/A_Somber_Melody

proof that if someone dies in shadowlands (yes, death is possible there too), they are gone for good

[Varodoc]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=317869/...ands-pre-patch

I love this minor piece of continuity. Now that Sylvanas the evil tyrant is gone, it is time for the Forsaken to cast aside all remants of that old, miserable, and dark era of their history.

[Ardenaso]

I kinda want a reunification between the Argent Lordaeronians and the Forsaken

well not make the Forsaken 100% lawful good and remove their pangs, but at least increase the presence of the Forsaken in Hearthglen, LHC, Tyr's Hand, and all of the reclaimed Eastweald and of course, make the Argent Lordaeronians aligned to the Horde when the Scourge is 100% gone since they're close neighbors with Quel'thalas and the Forsaken and the Lordaeronians had some history with the Thalassians

[LemonDemonGirl]

wasn't bwonsamdi a dark troll that prelates the first troll empire and the night elves? (thats one of the theories of bwonsamdi origins), trolls are the older mortal race in azeroth, they already existed as a race in the times of the black empire, likely the race trolls evolved from existed way before the formation of the black empire in azeroth (another theory is bwonsamdi being a member of that race).

also every single operative/agent on that book is already known(aside from the book writer)

Judging by the lack of 'scales' on his body, purple-grayish skin, (though this could just be from his death) his accent and his hunched over posture, I'm thinking yes he was. By the time that letter was written, he was probably a tiny troll baby being taken care of and cuddled by his mom and dad. He's too young to be an 'agent'

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think the operative can be anyone we know. Again, this missive was written when the Titans were still united and Sargeras uncorrupted, which means this was at a time when the Black Empire still ruled Azeroth (The other Titans stumbled upon Azeroth after their initial disagreement with Sargeras, which should not have happened at that point in time).
And we are talking about a point in time here, not about some passage of time, so wether time flows differently in the Shadowlands changes nothing about the point in time this was written.
I don't think this can be Bwonsamdi or Ysera (or any of the Dragonflights), because they came after the Black Empire.

Also, Bwonsamdi seems to be in a bit of a pickle with all the Death-Ladies. The Winter Queen is not as hostile towards him as Eyir, but almost. I guess he was already a trickster when he was still alive
I did not think the Winter Queen is hostile to all the other Loa, I mean she is the one responsible for their rebirth after all. When she says she doesn't want to be involved in their squabbles, it's only logical I think. If they fight, they fight over power in the mortal plane and she can't have any part in that. Because no matter who wins or loses, or who does 'evil' or 'good', she will have to rebirth them all, she can't be taking sides.

Well, I could defiantly see him flirting with all of the female souls/people in Ardenweald, that's for sure

[masterjc]

anu ideas how big KT appeared in Maldraxxus?

after first death he coukd regenerate from Phylactery as any other lich. it was given to father Indigo Montoya, who was his son.
after second death his phylactery wasnot found and it was assumed that he would return


any ideas why he got there? he could revive not go to afterlife

[Aucald]

anu ideas how big KT appeared in Maldraxxus?

after first death he coukd regenerate from Phylactery as any other lich. it was given to father Indigo Montoya, who was his son.
after second death his phylactery wasnot found and it was assumed that he would return


any ideas why he got there? he could revive not go to afterlife

We didn't really know what happens to a Lich in the interim between "dying" in the physical universe and being reformed using their phylactery. Apparently, the answer is that they sort of slum it out in the Shadowlands until reformed. It seems he chose not to revive while Bolvar was in control of the Helm (probably wise on his part), because as a member of the Scourge he'd be subject to domination by the Jailer of the Damned. In the meanwhile, he found his way to Maldraxxus and incited a civil war, apparently as part of the true Jailer's entourage.

[Darknessvamp]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=317869/...ands-pre-patch

I love this minor piece of continuity. Now that Sylvanas the evil tyrant is gone, it is time for the Forsaken to cast aside all remants of that old, miserable, and dark era of their history.

This is a weird take considering she's the one who freed them from the Scourge, expanded their lands and secured them a Kingdom, rebuked the living who wanted them dead regardless of their sentience and forged an agreement with a newly formed faction across the sea and assisted in the defence of the battered kingdom of Quel'thalas. Not to mention the fact recently risen have always been free to leave Forsaken territory and make their own life, end their lives again or become a part of that Kingdom. The fact people think she had a dictatorship is weird.

[Varodoc]

This is a weird take considering she's the one who freed them from the Scourge, expanded their lands and secured them a Kingdom, rebuked the living who wanted them dead regardless of their sentience and forged an agreement with a newly formed faction across the sea and assisted in the defence of the battered kingdom of Quel'thalas. Not to mention the fact recently risen have always been free to leave Forsaken territory and make their own life, end their lives again or become a part of that Kingdom. The fact people think she had a dictatorship is weird.

Sylvanas: Rules the Forsaken as absolute queen, decisions are taken solely by Sylvanas, has her face as their national symbol, their motto is "Dark Lady watch over you", literally mind-controls people.

Sylvanas fanboys: Actually Sylvanas was never a dictator.

[Darknessvamp]

Sylvanas: Rules the Forsaken as absolute queen, decisions are taken solely by Sylvanas, has her face as their national symbol, their motto is "Dark Lady watch over you", literally mind-controls people.

Sylvanas fanboys: Actually Sylvanas was never a dictator.

Despite the fact Sylvanas has never used mind-control on the Forsaken Populace and only on elements that have threatened or wasted Forsaken lives, that different parts of the Forsaken's society have elected leaders that Sylvanas works with to run them and the factions emblem and motto likely weren't created by her. Not to mention her people could literally leave Undercity at any time and live their own life if they so choosed. Then yes she wasn't a dictator.

[Traveler Voltin]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=317869/...ands-pre-patch

I love this minor piece of continuity. Now that Sylvanas the evil tyrant is gone, it is time for the Forsaken to cast aside all remants of that old, miserable, and dark era of their history.

so you know nothing about to forsaken and want them to change.
this smells like alliance.

[Dravec]

Lmao these retcons are getting so out of control. I thought it was stupid when they retconned old gods into basically just being tumors, but now Dreadlords are 500 IQ masters of deception whom know the plans of the plans of plans of plans.

I can’t wait until they retcon that the pit lords were secretly working with the Jailer’s mom from the 8th dimension or some shit lmao.

[Nagawithlegs]

So there is ONE person with green eyes in the Night Queen's court: a Thornspeaker (using the Kul Tiran druid forms, which all have green eyes). Maybe this is also the "her" operative/traitor mentioned in the Nathrezim missive?

[Super Dickmann]

My favorite part about the defaced banner is that the Forsaken dude next to it still has the tabard. I bet when you click him he says "Victory for Sylvanas" and his goodbye is still "Beware the living". This pitiful excuse for a race will never escape how great it used to be, if only due to Blizzard's massive laziness.