Suggestion: Horizontal Progression for all raids of the current expansion.

[A Chozo]

Look, Zenjie, I don't think people will be to keen in feeling "forced" to do "old" content. Considering that time is money, they very much prefer to spend that in current content only - why pay a sub to play something that they already played? It works newcommers, but that would cause severe burnout on someone who's playing since the xpac start.

[bloodwulf]

They elevated 5man dungeons loots. So blizzard kinda forced people to repeat 5man dungeons. So, it makes much harder to find groups for older raids to farm for transmog and so on. And why make raids obsolete after all? Keep them relevant. It wont hurt any active raid guilds.

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BG is different but it worker. Arathi basin is relevant forever. They should apply that same to raids. So they stay relevant forever in same expansion. Justice / valor points should return. That is some of the good suggestion as well. But the problem still stays, the challenge wont be same when you are overgeared.

Dude you are beyond delusional. Literally everyone in this thread as shot down your armchair developed plan to make raids relevant but you still keep hunkering down. Active raiders don't want to raid the same content forever, look at the drama Siege of Org had with its huge length of time as the only relevant content. 8 months is pretty much the perfect timeline for a raid to be relevant, after that it should be sunsetted and only accessed for people doing achievement/mount grinds, or at most a niche item or two.

You can't compare a BG that has different opponents every time you enter, and does not drop items, to something that has the same opponents every time you enter and drops items. BGs are only a zone, the mechanics of the BG isn't the hard part, the hard part is adapting to the opposing team, a Raid is about utilizing a fixed strategy to down a boss. That boss should never behave differently week to week with few exceptions like golem boss in BWD or caged dragon boss in BoT, who behaved in a way that you knew the strategy upon entering.

I am sorry that you participate in such a erratic and seldom schedule that you miss content, but the game will never be tailored to players that participate like you do, its not healthy to the general populace.

[Zenjie]

Look, Zenjie, I don't think people will be to keen in feeling "forced" to do "old" content. Considering that time is money, they very much prefer to spend that in current content only - why pay a sub to play something that they already played? It works newcommers, but that would cause severe burnout on someone who's playing since the xpac start.

I understand you. But have you played all difficulties, normal/heroic/mythic version of each raid in BFA? If not. For me, i can imagine that itbis refreshing to take break from current raid and visit older raids with the difficulty that you didnt beat yet. Or repeat same difficulty, because it is refreshing to do something else each week then each week same current raid isnt it?
Would you like that, honestly?

[A Chozo]

I understand you. But have you played all difficulties, normal/heroic/mythic version of each raid in BFA? If not. For me, i can imagine that itbis refreshing to take break from current raid and visit older raids with the difficulty that you didnt beat yet. Or repeat same difficulty, because it is refreshing to do something else each week then each week same current raid isnt it?
Would you like that, honestly?

No, I haven't played all difficulties, because IMO that's boring. New scenery > a different difficulty for me. If the game tries to direct me to do something I already did, I tend to go play something else.

But that's just me.

[Zenjie]

No, I haven't played all difficulties, because IMO that's boring. New scenery > a different difficulty for me. If the game tries to direct me to do something I already did, I tend to go play something else.

But that's just me.

Yeah i agree with you new scenery > a different difficulty. But new scenery for 6 months? It becomes a chore quickly. I would like to have diversity in that 6 months. Mainly new scenery(current raid) and sometime returning older raid. Blizzard removed that possibility by making 5man dungeons drop better loots then Uldir, CoC and BoD.
If i could redo king rangstakhan and mekka for the sake of fun and still getting reward as motivation in that 6 months period together with current raid. I would be happy. I havent tried them in mythic and heroic.

Would that make interesting for you?

[Garymorilix]

You say it's bad that gear becomes largely obsolete after a new tier launches. (Even tho some pieces "survive" like EP trinkets etc)

So your "solution" to this is having an even harder gear reset for every single tier than mere item level.

This would literally be like having 4 tiers going on simultaniously at the same time.
People would need to keep at least 4 sets of gear in their backpack and that doesn't even account to someone playing multiple specs.
Your progression during a tier would mean actually ZERO as you would be technically naked as soon as the next tier launched instead of having the advantage of a higher Ilvl.

There is not one developer who wouldn't get fired for suggestion something like this.

[Aktec]

Yeah i agree with you new scenery > a different difficulty. But new scenery for 6 months? It becomes a chore quickly. I would like to have diversity in that 6 months. Mainly new scenery(current raid) and sometime returning older raid. Blizzard removed that possibility by making 5man dungeons drop better loots then Uldir, CoC and BoD.
If i could redo king rangstakhan and mekka for the sake of fun and still getting reward as motivation in that 6 months period together with current raid. I would be happy. I havent tried them in mythic and heroic.

Would that make interesting for you?

But you can do that right now, make your own group and only invite people with 410 ilev, or w/e the appropiate gear was at the time. Blizz should NOT be catering to people who log on once every 6 months.

[Twdft]

Aside from the sheer amount of playing time it would take to clear 4 raids simultaniously, your idea doesn't even solve your perceived problem.

The first raid is out and gets thoroughly progressed and farmed by active raiders. They get everything they need out of it, gear works only in that raid. They are finished with it.

Second raid comes out, 2 days progress + 1 day old raid. The only people interested in the first raid are newcomers and rerollers. The fun was already gotten by active raiders, they don't want to go in there just to gear new players on top of progressing through the new raid.

Third raid comes out, requires again 2 raid days + now 2 days old raids which to active raiders are still irrelevant and only newcomers/rerollers would want to go, rerollers having the fun sucked out of the raid already when it was progressed.

Fourth raid comes out... 5 raid days if all of them are to be run. Recipe for burn out.

Rotating raids week by week will not work either. There are certain bosses you'd need to re-progress if you see them only every 4 weeks. The fun was still had a year earlier on first progression.

[Evilmoo]

This would go absolutely against blizzard's "Increase MAU at any cost" policy, gear treadmill is a thing that drives current wow.
Also, no thank you i'd like to see my power grow and outgrow older raids.

[FuxieDK]

The best way to make old raids relevant, is to remove gear catch-up mechanisms.

[VinceVega]

Oh please no. I like, that i outgrow old raids.

I would welcome atunements for raids. Like BC. Was annoying for high end but it made people go raid old raids again. Or progress with a new group from start.

Also get rid of at least one difficultie to not make everything from the old raid completly useless and get rid of the loot tombolas. There is way to much loot going around.

[Zenjie]

People still go to AB because every time they meet new players and every time it’s a new challenge that is not comparable to any previous even if it’s the same players.

Doing AQ40 today and AQ40 12-13-14 years ago is exactly the same behavioral pattern the same dialogues the same loot the same everything. As a result you do it and be done. Nostalgia may kick in once a year but it is content that has otherwise been consumed in its entirety.

I see this argument coming up. But isn't it what you guys all do every day? You repeat 5man dungeons every day. And 5man dungeons loots just buffed as catchup mechanism. Meaning, you do it even more EVERY day. with same patterns.
So, I prefer to have more choices then just only 5man dungeons. There are beautiful raid bosses out there with many difficulties. They are obsolete because they dont reward you enough. Meaning its harder to find groups for it.

If I'm able. I would like to repeat Uldir, BoD, Eternal Palace every week if i'm able. Then every week doing same 5man dungeons that i already did at the beginning of this expansion.

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The best way to make old raids relevant, is to remove gear catch-up mechanisms.

I agree with you. They buffed worldquests, 5man dungeons loots so high. If they did not do that. Raids were still more relevant then now.
Cataclysm had nice system. Each raidboss gives you justice points / valor points. So you can buy gear with that valor points.

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Look, Zenjie, I don't think people will be to keen in feeling "forced" to do "old" content. Considering that time is money, they very much prefer to spend that in current content only - why pay a sub to play something that they already played? It works newcommers, but that would cause severe burnout on someone who's playing since the xpac start.

Why is 5man dungeons still relevant then? Their loots became so buffed after patch. Meaning, there are people out there that does them after 1000 times. Where is the variations? I prefer to jump 5 man dungeons and to 4 different raids and jump to current raid, whenever i feel like.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I see this argument coming up. But isn't it what you guys all do every day? You repeat 5man dungeons every day. And 5man dungeons loots just buffed as catchup mechanism. Meaning, you do it even more EVERY day. with same patterns.
So, I prefer to have more choices then just only 5man dungeons. There are beautiful raid bosses out there with many difficulties. They are obsolete because they dont reward you enough. Meaning its harder to find groups for it.

If I'm able. I would like to repeat Uldir, BoD, Eternal Palace every week if i'm able. Then every week doing same 5man dungeons that i already did at the beginning of this expansion.

I understand that desire, but your suggested implementation would have a negative impact on a lot of players.

Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be a weekly quest to clear a boss in an older raid which rewards relevant gear? It would be enough for a change of pace, without making top-end guilds have to farm 4 different raids forever.

[Zenjie]

I understand that desire, but your suggested implementation would have a negative impact on a lot of players.

Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be a weekly quest to clear a boss in an older raid which rewards relevant gear? It would be enough for a change of pace, without making top-end guilds have to farm 4 different raids forever.

Thats actually good idea too. Weekly quest is excellent idea. Which rewards same transmog gear / right ilvl.
But I would like to comment at "making top end guilds having to farm 4 different raids forever". They don't have to if they already outfarmed old raids. Collected all sets already. Then they don't have to farm them anymore. So my suggestion does not really hurt hardcore raiders right.

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Dude you are beyond delusional. Literally everyone in this thread as shot down your armchair developed plan to make raids relevant but you still keep hunkering down. Active raiders don't want to raid the same content forever, look at the drama Siege of Org had with its huge length of time as the only relevant content. 8 months is pretty much the perfect timeline for a raid to be relevant, after that it should be sunsetted and only accessed for people doing achievement/mount grinds, or at most a niche item or two.

You can't compare a BG that has different opponents every time you enter, and does not drop items, to something that has the same opponents every time you enter and drops items. BGs are only a zone, the mechanics of the BG isn't the hard part, the hard part is adapting to the opposing team, a Raid is about utilizing a fixed strategy to down a boss. That boss should never behave differently week to week with few exceptions like golem boss in BWD or caged dragon boss in BoT, who behaved in a way that you knew the strategy upon entering.

I am sorry that you participate in such a erratic and seldom schedule that you miss content, but the game will never be tailored to players that participate like you do, its not healthy to the general populace.

This is suggestion for people who did not do all raid bosses with all difficulties. Did you do every mythic bosses? Heroic and normal? If you did. Then suggestion might not appeal to you. If you did not, like me. Seeing bosses every week that I did not do before and learning how to beat boss. And i still would like to repeat this bosses even i did them before. It's same what most population people do with 5 man dungeons. They repeat them all time. Raidboss is much more interesting and fun to play around with the team then 5 man dungeons.

I think you can compare it with BG. You work with the team, you learn to communicate with players to beat boss together. You work with the team, just like BG. Because, every time you enter raid, you do not have same people. You have to teach them and do trial and errors. And eventually you beat the boss. There are some differences with BG ofcourse. But that is not the argument why raids should not stay relevant like BG's are.

Why should game not tailored to people who are casual, thats what you say? But If i'm looking at this suggestion. It does not hurt the hardcore players who outfarmed the old raids already. They probably have all sets to collect. So, they do not visit these raids anyway. But the players, the casual players will still visit these raids. By making these raids still relevant. The casual players has more places to go for for character progression. Better rewards, transmog and easier to group because raids still being relevant.

I am asking you. Can you reply this question. Does it hurt you if old raid is still relevant for newcomers and casual players? Maybe not exact same as my suggestion. But like justice points/valor points dropping. Scaling or whatever. Just anything for stop making the raids become obsolete.

[A Chozo]

Why is 5man dungeons still relevant then? Their loots became so buffed after patch. Meaning, there are people out there that does them after 1000 times. Where is the variations? I prefer to jump 5 man dungeons and to 4 different raids and jump to current raid, whenever i feel like.

Huh, good point. I think it's because one dungeon is almost equivalent to one boss. You can quickly drop in and out, while at raids you have to "commit" and defeat lots of bosses in order and what else.

[bloodwulf]

Thats actually good idea too. Weekly quest is excellent idea. Which rewards same transmog gear / right ilvl.
But I would like to comment at "making top end guilds having to farm 4 different raids forever". They don't have to if they already outfarmed old raids. Collected all sets already. Then they don't have to farm them anymore. So my suggestion does not really hurt hardcore raiders right.

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This is suggestion for people who did not do all raid bosses with all difficulties. Did you do every mythic bosses? Heroic and normal? If you did. Then suggestion might not appeal to you. If you did not, like me. Seeing bosses every week that I did not do before and learning how to beat boss. And i still would like to repeat this bosses even i did them before. It's same what most population people do with 5 man dungeons. They repeat them all time. Raidboss is much more interesting and fun to play around with the team then 5 man dungeons.

I think you can compare it with BG. You work with the team, you learn to communicate with players to beat boss together. You work with the team, just like BG. Because, every time you enter raid, you do not have same people. You have to teach them and do trial and errors. And eventually you beat the boss. There are some differences with BG ofcourse. But that is not the argument why raids should not stay relevant like BG's are.

Why should game not tailored to people who are casual, thats what you say? But If i'm looking at this suggestion. It does not hurt the hardcore players who outfarmed the old raids already. They probably have all sets to collect. So, they do not visit these raids anyway. But the players, the casual players will still visit these raids. By making these raids still relevant. The casual players has more places to go for for character progression. Better rewards, transmog and easier to group because raids still being relevant.

I am asking you. Can you reply this question. Does it hurt you if old raid is still relevant for newcomers and casual players? Maybe not exact same as my suggestion. But like justice points/valor points dropping. Scaling or whatever. Just anything for stop making the raids become obsolete.

The game is already tailored to casuals and hardcore alike. If you want to see old content, get a group and walk into the dungeon/raid. If you want to queue easy content, then do LFR. Stop trying to force old expired content to be relevant. Your suggestion literally punishes people for entering new raids by doing an expansion level gear reset every new raid tier. The goal of raids in an expansion is to get more powerful every step of the journey. If i am clearing Mythic of raid A, it should definitely make doing Normal/Heroic of raid B easier. At no point do i want to enter Nyalotha after doing Mythic Eternal Palace, and have to start from Normal and work all the way up because the game says, you can't handle the later bosses due to an artificial limiter like zone restricted resistances.

Also your BG comparison still doesn't work so just stop. BGs you are fighting other players, not the mechanics of the zone. The zone mechanics are largely irrelevant, its the mechanics and the gear/skill of the opposing team that adds the difficulty. If you did BGs versus AI controlled enemies then sure, it could potentially work, but comparing to real players is disingenuous. Also if you are entering a raid with a different team every time, stop pugging and join a guild. If that is not something you are willing to do, the game shouldn't be catered to you just because you reject the tools given.

Literally your system only benefits the people that play once a month, and expects all content to be catered to them. Once a month players, or players that quit ever 3-4 months for long periods at a time are literally the last group the game should be designed for.

[Zenjie]

The game is already tailored to casuals and hardcore alike. If you want to see old content, get a group and walk into the dungeon/raid. If you want to queue easy content, then do LFR. Stop trying to force old expired content to be relevant. Your suggestion literally punishes people for entering new raids by doing an expansion level gear reset every new raid tier. The goal of raids in an expansion is to get more powerful every step of the journey. If i am clearing Mythic of raid A, it should definitely make doing Normal/Heroic of raid B easier. At no point do i want to enter Nyalotha after doing Mythic Eternal Palace, and have to start from Normal and work all the way up because the game says, you can't handle the later bosses due to an artificial limiter like zone restricted resistances.

Also your BG comparison still doesn't work so just stop. BGs you are fighting other players, not the mechanics of the zone. The zone mechanics are largely irrelevant, its the mechanics and the gear/skill of the opposing team that adds the difficulty. If you did BGs versus AI controlled enemies then sure, it could potentially work, but comparing to real players is disingenuous. Also if you are entering a raid with a different team every time, stop pugging and join a guild. If that is not something you are willing to do, the game shouldn't be catered to you just because you reject the tools given.

Literally your system only benefits the people that play once a month, and expects all content to be catered to them. Once a month players, or players that quit ever 3-4 months for long periods at a time are literally the last group the game should be designed for.

Bloodwulf. It's okay if your opinion is not same as mine.
And you said "if you want to see old content, get a group and walk into the dungeon/raid" That is exactly my point.
Dungeon, you can still see the old content like Tol Dagor, Motherlode and whatever. They are still relevant because their loots are buffed. Thus, it is much easier to find groups to enter these dungeons
But it was not applied to raids. Which is my wish. If they were kept relevant by giving excellent loots, valor points or anything. It doesn't have to be my suggestion exactly. But just keep it relevant.
So, i'm asking you. Would it hurt you if old raids were still kept relevant, same as 5 man dungeons nowadays are? Current raid will still give better loots. You are free to ignore old raids. But players around did not farm all raids yet, meaning we will have more choices to have for having fun in the raid then "indirect forced" to only one raid which is current. I do not want easy content. LFR is nothing, it is garbage. I want beautiful raids that blizzard has created in BFA. I would like see them being more relevant through the expansion.

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Huh, good point. I think it's because one dungeon is almost equivalent to one boss. You can quickly drop in and out, while at raids you have to "commit" and defeat lots of bosses in order and what else.

Yeah "defeat lots of bosses in order". One raid is huge. I would like to see LFR wing-system implemented to all old raid contents as well. So, you don't have to beat bosses in order to reach king rangstakhan for an example. Just enter the specific wing where king rangstakhan "lives".

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The best way to make old raids relevant, is to remove gear catch-up mechanisms.

I agree with you.

[VinceVega]

Bloodwulf. It's okay if your opinion is not same as mine.
And you said "if you want to see old content, get a group and walk into the dungeon/raid" That is exactly my point.
Dungeon, you can still see the old content like Tol Dagor, Motherlode and whatever. They are still relevant because their loots are buffed. Thus, it is much easier to find groups to enter these dungeons
But it was not applied to raids. Which is my wish. If they were kept relevant by giving excellent loots, valor points or anything. It doesn't have to be my suggestion exactly. But just keep it relevant.
So, i'm asking you. Would it hurt you if old raids were still kept relevant, same as 5 man dungeons nowadays are? Current raid will still give better loots. You are free to ignore old raids. But players around did not farm all raids yet, meaning we will have more choices to have for having fun in the raid then "indirect forced" to only one raid which is current. I do not want easy content. LFR is nothing, it is garbage. I want beautiful raids that blizzard has created in BFA. I would like see them being more relevant through the expansion.

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Yeah "defeat lots of bosses in order". One raid is huge. I would like to see LFR wing-system implemented to all old raid contents as well. So, you don't have to beat bosses in order to reach king rangstakhan for an example. Just enter the specific wing where king rangstakhan "lives".

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I agree with you.

The problem with old raids having the same level of loot as newer ones is that there will be cases, where the loot from the old raid is simply better than the new one. So you have a new boss who only drops trash. In a perfect world with perfect human beings the simple killing of said boss would be enough but we are not perfect and wow players are not intrinsical motivated to clear raids. Loot is a big part of that and the excitment that comes with it.

In the Eternal Palace i was EXTREMLY unlucky with trinkets and never got the one i needed. But it was amazing and would still be better than anything in nyalotha if it had the same iLvL. But i was soooo sick of eternal palace after the months of raiding it and would still have to do it for the trinket...

No Catchup would theoratically force you to do old raids BUT that was despised by every raidguild in BC. People hated it. They were forced to run old raids they did hundreds of times for new recruits to get the attunment. Also the time you have to invest into your alts would increase tenfold

[Nuciek]

No, just no. Your idea is a "fix" that will only work for you and brake the game for everyone else. Those systems you have invented are terrible for plenty of reasons and you only look from your point of view, not thinking about everyone else that plays the game. Those systems would FORCE other players to play the way YOU want to play the game, not the way they want to play, which is really, really bad.

And all that just so you can raid the way you like it once a month? That's why we have different difficulties - so everyone can enjoy content at their own level of dedication. If you raid rarely, just enough to clear content on normal YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT CLEARING THE RAID ON HEROIC. You think you do, you convince yourself and others that you want a challenge, but you don't. If you would like a challenge, and you would want to clear the raid on heroic, you would play the game and clear the raid on heroic. It's simple. if you're a casual player, that just wants to hop into the game, have some fun and see the content - it's fine, LFR and normal is there for you.

There's one more issue that you haven't seen in your system and which would crush your dreams if it was reality. I'll write it down as an example.
During Uldir you only managed to clear normal.
Dazar'alor comes out, but you want to clear heroic Uldir first. So you focus on that. You manage to clear heroic Uldir.
Eternal Palace comes out. But you haven't cleared Dazar'alor yet. You go do that. You clear normal Dazar'alor.
Ny'alotha comes out, but you want to clear heroic Dazar'alor first. So you do that, you clear heroic Dazar'alor.

Shadowlands comes out, you haven't seen Eternal Palace and Ny'alotha at all and they become obsolete old content.

You see the problem here? It's you. If you don't play, you can't clear everything in the game, and you should be thankful that there are FOUR different difficulty levels so you can at least see all the content, quite opposite to Vanilla or TBC when raids were relevant for most of the expansion, and most of people never could see the newer raids.

[Loveliest]

OK so what would make me step into raid 1 once I finish it if I can't use the rewards from it in the next raid? Because that's what it means to keep relevant. To keep going and going there for rewards.

I mean you're thinking about players who haven't experienced it, but these players need other players who want to go back. And I don't see you solving this issue at all. I see no reason to go back to raid 1 if I'm in raid 4, unless I want some trinket to use in M+ (which is exactly the same with nowadays).

Nevermind that I really don't want to do 4 raids in my 2 days of raiding, I just don't see how you solve the issue and how you make it relevant. The only way to make them truly relevant is:
1. not get gear from other sources (cause you know, I get gear close to Mythic end raid from M+)
2. have all gear be the exact same level or comparable - which you kinda touch on with proposed levels, but you limit it by making the gear unusable in other raids