Covenants system is pointless

[Super Kami Dende]

Why do covs even exist?

To help as a base for the story of new content and add in some new stuff to play with?

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But this is the general misunderstanding right here... the covenants doesn't add much RPG to the game at all.

Ironically because the backlash from the mouthbreather idiots of the internet that cry about "MUH SPREADSHEETS" require most RPG type things to be removed from the game and its systems to actually achieve their shitty "balance"

[erifwodahs]

It's going to change where you hang out for a good chunk of your time. Your zone will have extra interactions like the mirror portals in Revendreth, making you more at home. Dungeons aren't the open world, but your choice will be meaningful when you can buff the party or unlock a shortcut for your group.

If they offered a story on how paladin joins undead or vampires then maybe. Covenants put you "out of character" 3 times out of 4. Vegan DK and DH... lul. Animations looks very much out of character too. Covenants give as much RP value as Essences, unless the spells are spec customized - it won't give much of RP value besides neutral classes like a mage or warrior.

[Kaver]

The active ability, transmog, mount and utility ability are all CORE RPG elements.

No seriously.

RP is pretty much done by players themselves and this gives the players a better way to identify their characters with a specific storyline.

Do I kinda wish that they'd just said screw it and added another talent row?

Yeah.

Am I happier though seeing all the angry nerd tears about how mean Blizzard is and everyone so upset that they won't "pull the ripcord?"

Oh, you betcha.

Keep covenants.

They are RPG element, you're right. But the point is that it is far from enough compared to what Blizzard have sold it as. You already see people calling covenants "sub-classes" which is so far from the reality. But it shows that the Marketing of Blizzard works. Only the people who have played the Beta knows what covenants REALLY are.

I think all the heat that the players who critique the covenants are getting is misplaced. The truth is that the top 1% wont be very affected by the covenants because they will just sim and pick the best choice. Simple. But what players with beta access know is that this covenants are going to be very disappointing for the average WoW player. Because they doesn't live up to what they were sold as. Just like Island Expeditions and Warfronts in BFA. These features were also sold as "Grand Events" but the average WoW player is not really playing them out of enjoyment.

[Niwes]

After having looked more at the cov system, and seen people use it, I think the system offers zero meaningful character customization. besides the active ability, there is almost no difference between every conduit inside of the weak soulbind system. and the covs aren't even meaningful choices, they are simply "Do I gimp myself in M+ to excel in raids?". What's funny is, a system that has been so adamantly defended by casuals, actually harms casuals the most because they will be the ones with less effective characters in 2/3 game modes at any given time while top players will having 3 characters per class taking the best Cov for every game mode. The system is pointless

Why do covs even exist?

no offense here, but i think you just summarized the concerns and content of many many many maaaaaaaany (did i say many?) threads of the last 10 months or so.

so: yes, you are right. (at least in my opinion and a „few“ others). and now ?

[koontakent]

they're exactly what we get every xpac

rebranded and more annoying

we got an extra talent line, we got more passive talents (its almost like they have to keep compensating for them anemic talent trees) a few mounts and tmog sets locked behind a rep grind

none of this is new and exciting at all

[javierdsv]

So they are trying to make them all feel of equal value so people don't complain about getting shut from some abilities but people complain because they are too similar?

No one will ever be satisfied. Just let it go.

[Kaver]

Ironically because the backlash from the mouthbreather idiots of the internet that cry about "MUH SPREADSHEETS" require most RPG type things to be removed from the game and its systems to actually achieve their shitty "balance"

The point that many people are making is that the covenants don't even impact RPG much. So the impact of balance compared to the impact of RPG is out of proportions.

Classes are an example of good proportions. The balance between classes can at times be bad, but the RPG impact of classes are great. So the imbalance is acceptable. But this is not the case with covenants. People just don't know it yet.

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You seriously telling me you won't notice yourself being way faster in your own zone? Or won't have in the back of your mind that you're a rare commodity in Theater of Pain and Plaguefall?
Funny guy. Claims there are no interactions, then pivots to downplay those that get mentioned.



Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it kinda sounds more like someone is parroting Preach.
My circles in beta are complaining more about class balance than the covenants.

No. The average player is not going to notice these things as valuable RPG elements. Especially not when they sit down and compare it to what Blizzard sold it as. Moving faster in you zone is great but it is far from enough. The covenants are just not very meaningful in the grand scheme.

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So they are trying to make them all feel of equal value so people don't complain about getting shut from some abilities but people complain because they are too similar?

No one will ever be satisfied. Just let it go.

The problem is that no one will be satisfied:

People who want balance: Are not going to be satisfied for obvious reasons.

People who want RPG: Are not going to be satisfied because once they play Shadowlands they will realize how meaningless covenants are in terms of the overall experience of Shadowlands. The game is not going to make you feel like a Venthyr, Kyrian etc.

[Niwes]

Because blizzard have it in their heads that they are good at designing new systems and the covenant one is just another idea in a long list of systems that no one asked for.

somehow that post made me smile, bc it remembered me to that well known quote of Carl Sandburg:

„Sometime they'll give a war and nobody will come!“

here is my version:

„Sometime they‘ll give systems like Covenants, no one asked for, and nobody will come.“

[exochaft]

After having looked more at the cov system, and seen people use it, I think the system offers zero meaningful character customization. besides the active ability, there is almost no difference between every conduit inside of the weak soulbind system. and the covs aren't even meaningful choices, they are simply "Do I gimp myself in M+ to excel in raids?". What's funny is, a system that has been so adamantly defended by casuals, actually harms casuals the most because they will be the ones with less effective characters in 2/3 game modes at any given time while top players will having 3 characters per class taking the best Cov for every game mode. The system is pointless

Why do covs even exist?

Bolded parts are where you completely defeat your own arguments. You claim there's no meaningful customization or choice, yet immediately talk about how you can make a choice the refines what your character is good at? I've said it a bunch, I'll say it again: the complaint people are having isn't that there's not a meaningful choice... the complaint is that there's actually a meaningful choice.

People like the OP conflate "meaningful choice" with "having my cake and eating it, too," when in reality they usually polar opposites. The Covenants aren't something that's supposed to be changed on a whim, they're something you have to decide upon based upon what's important to you. Do you focus a specific content? Do you go the all-rounder to balance yourself across content/specs/etc.? Do you choose based upon cosmetics? There's a bunch of factors that go into making the choice of a Covenant. The real source of the complaining is that people are upset that they can't get everything at the same time. If there's always a right answers with no debate, there's really no meaningful choice to be had... and the game already has enough systems like that.

If you're worried about balance from the perspective that there's always a right answer that's always better for every scenario at once, that's a legitimate complaint at this point (such as the rogue ability from the Necrolords, which Blizz even mentioned is busted right now). However, balancing and tuning isn't done yet, and not providing constructive feedback to address such issues while just calling to burn the entire system down will not help at all.

[huth]

No. The average player is not going to notice these things as valuable RPG elements. Especially not when they sit down and compare it to what Blizzard sold it as. Moving faster in you zone is great but it is far from enough. The covenants are just not very meaningful in the grand scheme.

Kinda hard to do when they get shoved in your face. And given that you pretty much can't do anything endgame without a covenant, calling them "not meaningful" is absurd.

No, it's clear that you're just looking for reasons to belittle their significance while completely ignoring anything that contradicts your argument.

[Redroniksre]

They are RPG element, you're right. But the point is that it is far from enough compared to what Blizzard have sold it as. You already see people calling covenants "sub-classes" which is so far from the reality. But it shows that the Marketing of Blizzard works. Only the people who have played the Beta knows what covenants REALLY are.

I think all the heat that the players who critique the covenants are getting is misplaced. The truth is that the top 1% wont be very affected by the covenants because they will just sim and pick the best choice. Simple. But what players with beta access know is that this covenants are going to be very disappointing for the average WoW player. Because they doesn't live up to what they were sold as. Just like Island Expeditions and Warfronts in BFA. These features were also sold as "Grand Events" but the average WoW player is not really playing them out of enjoyment.

Well you don't know why average WoW players are doing Islands and Warfront, i know there are people out there that actually enjoy Islands. That said, i agree with you in a way, Covenants were underwhelming to me even after announcement. That said with the whine fit the community had over covenant changing, i can't imagine them even capable of handling a larger scale system (unless it is all cosmetic of course, cause that is all that things they don't do are allowed to offer)

[Packmule]

Convenants are pretty bad, sure people that have the mindset of; i dont give a fuck whether i do 10 dps or 1000, whether i step in pvp with 10 disadvantages rather then 5, or boss 1,4,7 u good at, but the rest u suck cause of convenant choice Sure those people wont mind. Id like to be the verry best i can be, for myself and my team. So no this system i do NOT like, and thats fine. Ill do what i can, but i wont defend this system and pretend its great, and it adds meaningful choices. Its like asking whether u wanna be killed with a knife or a bullet. Theirs no meaningful choice there is there?

[Kaver]

Bolded parts are where you completely defeat your own arguments. You claim there's no meaningful customization or choice, yet immediately talk about how you can make a choice the refines what your character is good at? I've said it a bunch, I'll say it again: the complaint people are having isn't that there's not a meaningful choice... the complaint is that there's actually a meaningful choice.

People like the OP conflate "meaningful choice" with "having my cake and eating it, too," when in reality they usually polar opposites. The Covenants aren't something that's supposed to be changed on a whim, they're something you have to decide upon based upon what's important to you. Do you focus a specific content? Do you go the all-rounder to balance yourself across content/specs/etc.? Do you choose based upon cosmetics? There's a bunch of factors that go into making the choice of a Covenant. The real source of the complaining is that people are upset that they can't get everything at the same time. If there's always a right answers with no debate, there's really no meaningful choice to be had... and the game already has enough systems like that.

If you're worried about balance from the perspective that there's always a right answer that's always better for every scenario at once, that's a legitimate complaint at this point (such as the rogue ability from the Necrolords, which Blizz even mentioned is busted right now). However, balancing and tuning isn't done yet, and not providing constructive feedback to address such issues while just calling to burn the entire system down will not help at all.

I guess my questions is more based on "What is the meaning?".

What is the meaning of choosing between power and aesthetics?

What is the meaning of choose between M+ and raiding?

I cannot see how it adds any value to the game that I have to choose between these things. Blizzard have made some great content in both raiding and M+ so I don't understand the meaning of restricting the way I play the game.

Why is it a bad thing that I want to look good and perform well at the same time? If that is bad then just remove transmog from the game.

Why is it bad that I want to perform optimally in both raiding and M+? Why do I need to choose a game mode?

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Kinda hard to do when they get shoved in your face. And given that you pretty much can't do anything endgame without a covenant, calling them "not meaningful" is absurd.

No, it's clear that you're just looking for reasons to belittle their significance while completely ignoring anything that contradicts your argument.

*Not meaningful in terms of RPG value.

[cancel]

The active ability, transmog, mount and utility ability are all CORE RPG elements.

No seriously.

RP is pretty much done by players themselves and this gives the players a better way to identify their characters with a specific storyline.

Do I kinda wish that they'd just said screw it and added another talent row?

Yeah.

Am I happier though seeing all the angry nerd tears about how mean Blizzard is and everyone so upset that they won't "pull the ripcord?"

Oh, you betcha.

Keep covenants.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but if you think 9.1 won't remove the covenant restrictions, you are very very misguided.
One thing more of the casual player base can't notice is when a system is really tailored in such a bad way that will produce nothing, but problems.
Mostly, because covenants can't be balanced, too many variables - which will just prove to be true in time and the ripcord will get pulled, they just need to bleed some subscribers in the course of 9.0 and the problems that will occur when people get geared, right now in beta we can only test rank 1 conduits with no trinkets and no proper stats, watch how the game will break when we go live

[khazmodan]

They are RPG elements, you're right. But the point is that it is far from what Blizzard have sold it as. You already see people calling covenants "sub-classes" which is so far from the reality. But it shows that the Marketing of Blizzard works. Only the people who have played the Beta knows what covenants REALLY are.

I think all the heat that the players who critique the covenants are getting is misplaced. The truth is that the top 1% wont be very affected by the covenants because they will just sim and pick the best choice. Simple. But what players with beta access know is that the covenants are going to be very disappointing for the average WoW player. Because they don't live up to what they were sold as. Just like Island Expeditions and Warfronts in BFA. These features were also sold as "Grand Events" but the average WoW player is not really playing them out of enjoyment.

Well said, Ion is just not an RP developer and he will never understand the Flavor that high quality RP elements bring to the game.

[Kaver]

Well you don't know why average WoW players are doing Islands and Warfront, i know there are people out there that actually enjoy Islands. That said, i agree with you in a way, Covenants were underwhelming to me even after announcement. That said with the whine fit the community had over covenant changing, i can't imagine them even capable of handling a larger scale system (unless it is all cosmetic of course, cause that is all that things they don't do are allowed to offer)

Again, I think it is misplaced to call it a "whine fit".

Yes players who care about performance are worried about the system. But do also remember that Blizzard themselves are creating the content where performance really matters. Blizzard are creating the Mythic raid bosses and the +30 M+ dungeons. They are the ones creating this demanding content where balance is most important. So it's a bit hypocritical of Blizzard to create this insanely tuned content but at the same time tell the players that they should not worry too much about performance.

If Blizzard are going down this route then they should honestly stop making incredibly difficult content. If they don't want players to change talents etc. between bosses then they should go back to the vanilla/bc level of difficulty. They cannot make boss fights like mythic kil'jaeden and at the same time expect people to not min-max. It's not fair.

[Soikona]

Cant argue with this. Although I'd add that Covenants are pointless. Where is the RPG choice Ion has shoved down our throats. Every beta tester says there are zero RPG elements?

That was a buzz word. If you fell for it, that’s on you.

[Atharaxie]

The people who are against the covenants are people who have played the beta and know that Blizzard have sold the covenants based on fallacies.

I can confirm this. There is some form of RP while we do the campaign (mostly leveling) but after that, RPG elements are few and scarce. You could compare that to Garrisson at most. Nowhere can I find the exitement of Blizzard about meaningfull choice and Covenant intrication. Do you remember patch 8.2 when we got meiningfull outworld interaction with professions ? It's on par.
Outside of transmog/mount, I wouldn't base my covenant choice on RPG elements. And I don't even intent to mythic raid in SL.

[LordVargK]

there is almost no difference between every conduit inside of the weak soulbind system.

That's intentional to give you room to switch soulbinds on demand without too high of an opportunity cost, because conduits are static to NOT allow you to pick your desired conduit for every fight. The conduits themselves are different enough, though. Albeit only the potency ones seem useful, the other two categories are severly lacking.

and the covs aren't even meaningful choices, they are simply "Do I gimp myself in M+ to excel in raids?

That's kinda the point of a meaningful choice. If every ability would have the same impact in every game mode, it would not be meaningful but a cosmetic choice.

What's funny is, a system that has been so adamantly defended by casuals, actually harms casuals the most because they will be the ones with less effective characters in 2/3 game modes at any given time while top players will having 3 characters per class taking the best Cov for every game mode.

Ad hominem arguments don't get you far. And it's pretty irrelevant for a casual if they don't use the optimal ability, because a casual only cares about fun and not strictly performance. Also, having the "wrong" covenant has a nice side effect: Mr pseudo elite has a scapegoat to blame if his DPS sucks. So it's the same as with Corruption: Bad players can blame the system instead of realizing that they can't play their class. That keeps them happy, because they maintain the illusion that they are good players.

[GringoD]

Outside of transmog/mount, I wouldn't base my covenant choice on RPG elements. And I don't even intent to mythic raid in SL.

I would include the weekly activity in that consideration. It's gonna be frustrating if you don't like what they have you do on the regular.