Do restrictions automatically make choices more "meaningful"?

[Kaver]

Not necessarily.

A very recent example of this is azerite traits and essences. Azerite traits were restricted by a reforge cost and essences you were able to change freely. Did that make azerite traits more "meaningful" than essences. No. Absolutely not. In my opinion.

Now the word "meaningful" is used a lot currently. This is of course a very subjective word. For some people it can be "meaningful" to look at a wall.

For me, restrictions are not meaningful if they are made simply for the sake of having restrictions. Azerite traits were not more meaningful than essences. Ion even said that the reforge cost was a mistake. Restrictions are only meaningful if they are placed in the right context. In my opinion. Otherwise it's simply a pointless. In my opinion.

Right now we can have 50 characters per account in WoW. Would the game be more meaningful if they made a restriction so we could only have 2 characters per account?

[Baneto]

You raise a good point, I never liked the strangely expensive azerite-reforge costs as a druid playing multiple specs.

I dont like to be shoehorned into decisions by the game I play.

[Gherothar]

Right now we can have 50 characters per account in WoW. Would the game be more meaningful if they made a restriction so we could only have 2 characters per account?

Yes. I have a lot of alts, and I've had to plan ahead on what race/class/faction some of them will be, because I want to make something I will enjoy, ideally, forever. I don't want to have to delete them and lose all the progress I had. I've done it before when we only had 10 slots per realm.

So yeah, only being able to make 2 characters would definitely force more meaningful decisions.

[Eurhetemec]

Right now we can have 50 characters per account in WoW. Would the game be more meaningful if they made a restriction so we could only have 2 characters per account?

Yes, definitely, that would make class/race choice a hugely meaningful thing that people thought really carefully about. I'd probably main a Druid for starters. People would stick with characters much more, people would get much angrier even than they do now about bad class/race balance, and in general the impact would be huge and meaningful.

Not positive. But huge.

If this is intended to support your argument, rather than provide an example of the opposite, you don' fucked up son. Because that would be a very meaningful restriction which would change how the game played. Not all restrictions are meaningful, but that one would be.

[Mosha]

Subjectively, sure anyone can say nothing and or everything is meaningful in wow.

Looking at it objectively, yes, of course it does. The fact that you can't respec in diablo 2 means EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. you place is extremely meaningful, and maybe a better word is...impactful on your character.

[LorDC]

Subjectively, sure anyone can say nothing and or everything is meaningful in wow.

Looking at it objectively, yes, of course it does. The fact that you can't respec in diablo 2 means EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. you place is extremely meaningful, and maybe a better word is...impactful on your character.

Or, more likely every single point is extremely meaningless, because, if you actually care you are following a guide created by one of the few prominent theorycrafters.

[keldarepewpew]

Right now we can have 50 characters per account in WoW. Would the game be more meaningful if they made a restriction so we could only have 2 characters per account?

For sure it would.

[Elias01]

Azerite gear can be swaped easly for barely any cost. So players just pick besz traits what their item have based on guide = meaningless choice.

[Mosha]

Or, more likely every single point is extremely meaningless, because, if you actually care you are following a guide created by one of the few prominent theorycrafters.

The context in which OP is using 'meaningful' is sort of bad here. What he means by meaningful is 'powerful' or 'impactful', you can assume this because he said

For me, restrictions are not meaningful if they are made simply for the sake of having restrictions. Azerite traits were not more meaningful than essences.

The way you are using 'meaningful' is completely different. You are using meaningful as in how much choice do you have when choosing your tree.

In the context of the OP, he is using meaningful as in power/handicap depending on what you choose.

[ZazuuPriest]

Subjectively, sure anyone can say nothing and or everything is meaningful in wow.

Looking at it objectively, yes, of course it does. The fact that you can't respec in diablo 2 means EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. you place is extremely meaningful, and maybe a better word is...impactful on your character.

you can literally respec in D2

[Eurhetemec]

you can literally respec in D2

This is true, but it wasn't true until 2010, when the game had been out for a decade, note.

The context in which OP is using 'meaningful' is sort of bad here. What he means by meaningful is 'powerful' or 'impactful', you can assume this because he said

The way you are using 'meaningful' is completely different. You are using meaningful as in how much choice do you have when choosing your tree.

In the context of the OP, he is using meaningful as in power/handicap depending on what you choose.

Yeah this is an issue. But the way most of us are using it is what people mean when they say "meaningful", particularly in reference to restrictions, whereas the OP seems to be trying to twist it around to mean something else for the sake of his argument. But he's only using the word meaningful because people use it. So it's kind of on him to re-word or accept what meaningful normally means.

[Sevarin]

Looking at it objectively, yes, of course it does. The fact that you can't respec in diablo 2 means EVERY. SINGLE. POINT. you place is extremely meaningful, and maybe a better word is...impactful on your character.

its already been covered that you can, but thats not what im here for.


literally all that not being able to respec in diablo 2 meant before you could was that you made your first character with garbage gear, loaded up on the best gear possible, planned it out, and had someone power level your butt cause you usually couldnt do anything with your terrible stats and severe lack of skilld that you didnt want to waste points in. often times this would require you to be level 90+ to finish your build because of one particular item that had a bunch of strength on it.


that didnt make it meaningful. it made it a giant annoying pain in the booty.

[Soon-TM]

Not necessarily.

A very recent example of this is azerite traits and essences. Azerite traits were restricted by a reforge cost and essences you were able to change freely. Did that make azerite traits more "meaningful" than essences. No. Absolutely not. In my opinion.

Now the word "meaningful" is used a lot currently. This is of course a very subjective word. For some people it can be "meaningful" to look at a wall.

For me, restrictions are not meaningful if they are made simply for the sake of having restrictions. Azerite traits were not more meaningful than essences. Ion even said that the reforge cost was a mistake. Restrictions are only meaningful if they are placed in the right context. In my opinion. Otherwise it's simply a pointless. In my opinion.

Right now we can have 50 characters per account in WoW. Would the game be more meaningful if they made a restriction so we could only have 2 characters per account?

Meaningful in the sense of "impactful", sure. In a very negative way ofc, but impactful nevertheless.

Now, if you say meaningful in the sense of "several valid choices", not at all. It's like walking into an arena match with your raid setup. You will be trashed by any decent player, assuming equal gear and skill.

[Mosha]

you can literally respec in D2

Then they changed it since it was released. Unless you didn't know that at one point you couldn't, you knew what I was saying and still chose to "ackshully" me.

- - - Updated - - -

its already been covered that you can, but thats not what im here for.


literally all that not being able to respec in diablo 2 meant before you could was that you made your first character with garbage gear, loaded up on the best gear possible, planned it out, and had someone power level your butt cause you usually couldnt do anything with your terrible stats and severe lack of skilld that you didnt want to waste points in. often times this would require you to be level 90+ to finish your build because of one particular item that had a bunch of strength on it.


that didnt make it meaningful. it made it a giant annoying pain in the booty.

It for sure made it more meaningful. I mean the meta of getting carried is irrelevant because people just made the meta around that. But the fact that you can't mess up your build or you would have to reroll or suffer the consequences made those decisions EXTREMELY meaningful. Honestly, if that's not a meaningful decision in a video game, making your talents permanent and only changeable by rerolling, then literally nothing is meaningful in any video game. Unless you have some sort of example or definition of meaningful that is completely off the wall that I'm not thinking about.

[Mesoforte]

I mean, basic economics.

Scarcity forces you to attribute value to things that there are less of. Subjective agents tend to ascribe more value to things that are harder to get or more limited and less value to things that are easier to get and more abundant.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Depends on circumstances the wholesale "NO RESTRICTIONS EVER1111111111" is just full of holes.

[Sevarin]

then literally nothing is meaningful in any video game. Unless you have some sort of example or definition of meaningful that is completely off the wall that I'm not thinking about.

to be fair....

games are designed to waste time, after all. a form of entertainment. there is no "meaningful" impact in the end, only things that affect the level of enjoyment, which is usually reduced by "meaningful" choices. "meaningful" choices to me are nothing but a limitation on the enjoyment you get out of the game, and are usually rather irritating to me. but thats just my personal opinion.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

A meaningful choice needs two things I think. It needs to have weight, and it needs to have consequence. Consequence isn't really important here, but Weight is.

If you can just freely hot-swap any time you want by using a tome that sells for maybe 1 gold, that choice has no weight to it. That's not a choice, that's a loadout. That's switching off Widowmaker because you need a Tank. Changing needs to be something you have to decide on, where you know changing is going to set you back in progress, but you think you made the wrong choice and it has to be done. That's where stuff like the old respec cost or the Azerite reforge cost come in at. It makes you have to stop and decide to change, rather than just changing because your raid leader said for this pack we want AoE. And yes that's a dig at Talents.

So yes I do think a "meaningful choice" requires some form of restriction. If you can just hot swap, the choice has no meaning. It's robotic, it's min/max, it's irrelevant. It is, in the truest sense, a fake choice. And I for one think that questline to change covenants should apply to any swap, not just swapping back to one you left.

[Mosha]

to be fair....

games are designed to waste time, after all. a form of entertainment. there is no "meaningful" impact in the end, only things that affect the level of enjoyment, which is usually reduced by "meaningful" choices. "meaningful" choices to me are nothing but a limitation on the enjoyment you get out of the game, and are usually rather irritating to me. but thats just my personal opinion.

To be fair, nothing is ever meaningful ever. We all die so whatever you think is meaningful, isn’t because we will all die anyway.

See how silly discussions can get when we go down this path of a definition of a word? This is why you stick to objective definitions of the word if you want to have a discussion otherwise it gets silly.

[Sevarin]

To be fair, nothing is ever meaningful ever. We all die so whatever you think is meaningful, isn’t because we will all die anyway.

See how silly discussions can get when we go down this path of a definition of a word? This is why you stick to objective definitions of the word if you want to have a discussion otherwise it gets silly.

honestly youre not wrong. everything is pretty meaningless.