Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[Maljinwo]

Factions are lame. Every race gets grouped behind whoever is calling the shots, ignoring how they feel, what they think, etc

I want racial storylines

[NorthernDragon]

Do you not know the novel "War Crimes"? The Burning of Teldrassil, just like the Fall of Theramore, would be considered a horrible war crime.

Warcraft is not Warhammer. Warcraft never commended genocide.

Then why are you ok with Alliance committing genocide? You literally said the Horde are evil because they committed genocide BUT it wouldn't be evil if the Alliance committed genocide in retaliation. You don't see the hypocrisy?

[Varodoc]

Then why are you ok with Alliance committing genocide? You literally said the Horde are evil because they committed genocide BUT it wouldn't be evil if the Alliance committed genocide in retaliation. You don't see the hypocrisy?

As I said, it's not evil, it's justice. There is no hypocrisy. Maybe next time don't commit genocide on Teldrassil. Actions have consequences.

[NorthernDragon]

As I said, it's not evil, it's justice. There is no hypocrisy. Maybe next time don't commit genocide on Teldrassil. Actions have consequences.

Genocide in retaliation to genocide has never been justified. Well, not by most.

[Varodoc]

Genocide in retaliation to genocide has never been justified. Well, not by most.

Tell that to the children who lost their parents at Teldrassil.

[gcsmith]

Did you not play the War Campaign? Sylvanas had overwhelming popular support until the very end, when she abdicated as Warchief. The people of the Horde were perfectly fine with following a genocidal psycho.

The funny thing is that Sylvanas wasn't even successful, because it was mentioned that the Alliance tightened its grip and was posed to end the war after the Battle of Dazar'alor, to the point that even Nathanos believed it was only a matter of weeks before an Alliance victory. So you can't even say "Well, the Horde people follow Sylvanas because she brings them victory", because she almost led them to defeat.

Well, the alliance was poised to win, until Anduin was worried what it would make the Alliance look like so he threw the victory away.

[NorthernDragon]

Tell that to the children who lost their parents at Teldrassil.

It's fiction

I don't mean to go there but it is difficult having a serious morality discussion with an open Trump supporter. That said, considering Tyrande didn't kill Sera I suspect she isn't really into genocide (but who knows, like Jaina she flip-flops on that)

[Itisamuh]

I don't mean to go there but it is difficult having a serious morality discussion with an open Trump supporter.

Trump supporters often feel the same way about the opposition.

[NorthernDragon]

Trump supporters often feel the same way about the opposition.

I am not even a Democratic lol but sure

[Aresk]

Tell that to the children who lost their parents at Teldrassil.

That's easy. "Do you want other children to experience the loss you did? Do you want to be like the people who killed your parents?" Genocide for genocide is vengeance, not justice. It's an understandable desire, but that doesn't make it ethical. You can get justice without killing the opposing group.

[Aydinx2]

I mean Genocide is subjective to the point of view. Alliance was willing to commit genocide with the tauren, the purge of Dalaran, Lordaeron, and against other races. The Horde have also opposed genocide as seen in Stonetalon. Both Teldrassil and Theramore led to Horde rebellion too.

1. There is a bit of a difference between wanting to do something and actually doing it.
2. Teldrassil and Theramore were directly ordered by the Horde leader.
3. Purge of Dalaran was NOT done or ordered by the Alliance (you don't see us blame the Horde for what WoD Grommash did).
4. Whether or not something is or isn't genocide is not subjective. That's not what the word "subjective" means.

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Genocide for genocide is vengeance, not justice. It's an understandable desire, but that doesn't make it ethical.

That's not how ethics works. You can't just say "X is ethical and Y isn't".

[Varodoc]

It's fiction

I don't mean to go there but it is difficult having a serious morality discussion with an open Trump supporter. That said, considering Tyrande didn't kill Sera I suspect she isn't really into genocide (but who knows, like Jaina she flip-flops on that)

Which is why I'm not irl crying for Teldrassil. It doesn't change the fact that it's genocide.

[Aydinx2]

Then why are you ok with Alliance committing genocide? You literally said the Horde are evil because they committed genocide BUT it wouldn't be evil if the Alliance committed genocide in retaliation. You don't see the hypocrisy?

Name a single time that the Alliance has committed genocide in response to Theramore or Teldrassil.

[LemonDemonGirl]

That's easy. "Do you want other children to experience the loss you did? Do you want to be like the people who killed your parents?" Genocide for genocide is vengeance, not justice. It's an understandable desire, but that doesn't make it ethical. You can get justice without killing the opposing group.

This is very true. a 'blood for blood' mentality usually just creates more loss and more death. The best thing to do is live you life and be happy, the exact opposite of what your races' murders would want

(Also, in case OP is wondering I don't support ether of 'those two'. I'm also Canadian so... )

[Kufell]

Does seem to be a growing amount that perceive the the Horde to be inherently evil and the Alliance inherently good, despite the fact that both factions have done good and bad, the bad including genocide for both sides, sometimes side by side against their mutual enemies.

I think the reason people focus on the atrocities the Horde commits more than those of the Alliance is the way the story chooses to focus on it, with us often seeing and exploring the fallout of when the Horde does something bad against the Alliance, but when the Alliance acts out brashly against the Horde, the story doesn't focus on the fallout anywhere near as much.

[Aydinx2]

This is very true. a 'blood for blood' mentality usually just creates more loss and more death. The best thing to do is live you life and be happy, the exact opposite of what your races' murders would want

So what, just let the Horde keep committing genocide because we don't wanna be mean? Your argument only makes sense if it's equal from both sides, when it really isn't.

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despite the fact that both factions have done good and bad, the bad including genocide for both sides, sometimes side by side against their mutual enemies.

When has the Alliance committed genocide?
And when have they done so against a mutual enemy?

I think you're confusing warfare with genocide. Killing the entire enemy army is not genocide (us vs The Legion). Killing (or even attempting to) their entire race is (Teldrassil).

[Arikara]

See, the issue is that Blizzard are in charge of deciding what happens, and recent Blizzard writers have been incompetent, and have done irreparable damage to the integrity of the faction. These writers intentionally write in atrocities on both sides in order to keep the story going. Only, these atrocities mount up over time until there's no way to justify anything in-universe, and everyone is just supposed to hate each other's guts. This is extremely unhealthy to community perception, and is why threads like this one keep cropping up over and over again.

In other words, the writers are manipulating you all into caring about events that happen in game. They do this to keep you playing, but they go about it in an unhealthy, short-sighted way.

[jellmoo]

I mean, what is and what isn't evil in a conflict tends to be dictated by the victor. What is a valid military target vs what isn't is largely defined by what happens after. What's considered justifiable response is the same thing.

A real world parallel would be the bombing of Dresden by the Allies in WW2. It was largely a non military target and was bombed as a point of retaliation more than anything else. But considering that the Allies won the war, the perception of the event was shifted and considered justifiable.

The Horde is often seen in an evil light because they have done things that are often seen as evil even by those within their ranks. We as players get to see that piece of narrative. It's designed to tell that story. Then at the end of the conflict, the blame is shifted to a single individual, and the conflict resets to the status quo of the Horde being honourable savages. The reason that the Horde is seen as having done evil things and then set out for redemption is because that's what we're supposed to think. That's the story Blizzard is driving.

[Kufell]

I think you're confusing warfare with genocide. Killing the entire enemy army is not genocide (us vs The Legion). Killing (or even attempting to) their entire race is (Teldrassil).

Has the Alliance never killed Trolls on a massive scale, including razing their villages/cities?

[Acidbaron]

Due to how the story is told from the alliance perspective not a lot of "gray area" is left for people on alliance to doubt this.

The story would be more interesting but i don't think the writers know how to go about this considering the entire plot of BFA had a faction war element to it 'bringing it back to warcrafts core' they try to sell it as, if we have to follow this idea you have to understand that in warcraft 1 and 2 the horde was the evil faction, from warcraft 3 onward we started to only just see them in a more noble tribe light, this was later all written off as the horde being under the control of the fell bloodlust and gul'dan.

All in all the game does not do a good job of telling the whole story, it's disconnected as it jumps all over the place. We are always going back and forward in time sometimes even into the future or alternative realities. If you didn't play every expansion fully it is rather hard to get the entire story.

Nobel (sp) does a fairly good job at it.

tl;dr: BFA design philosophy "bring the war back to warcraft" "Original warcraft games the horde were the bad guys".