Why is N'Zoth even a boss if melee exist in the game?

[Relapses]

You can make the same video about ranged players and dodge mechanics Like if the ranged classes are standing too close to Maut and the Black Wings mechanic aims on them... damn... those tunneling ranged players will just not dodge anything.

Ranged players are very good at dealing with mechanics where they have to run away from the boss or group, but in general they suck at dodging mechanics that require just a little bit of mobility

You realize that if the pendulum swings the other direction the title of this thread just becomes "y Blizz maek all fite melee-friend huh?" And then mysteriously this thread is an anti-melee echo chamber and everybody agrees that life was better back when Blizzard just made melee eat shit 24/7.

[Kumorii]

I never understood why they don't make more mechanics in melee range. Something that the melee dps and the tanks have to do in cooperation to deal with. That should be possible to design. No all mechanics have to be away from the boss.

We have mechanics that work like that. Vexiona soak for example though that's for everyone. They do exists. Problem is that all mechanics can't be like that because then every boss is the same. As long as you try and make one or two mechanics that doesn't work in that regard ranged dps will pull ahead due to their range.

It's a significant advantage.

[erifwodahs]

Arena is a different story than raiding

It was not the point. I meant BM is easy to pick up and play, like a frost mage, you can do reasonable damage just by spamming procs. ofc, a good frost mage will do way more damage because they know what to do, but a no clue frost mage can do 70% of that damage. Your pareses will suck but meters will be not far behind ok dps even if you have no clue on what you are doing.
Then if you look at some other dps specs. if you just try to play fire mage without into looking it.. it will do less damage than a tank no matter if your gear is 475

[Kaver]

You're pretty much applying double standards here. Just because you don't like the playstyle of fire mages, that doesn't mean everyone doesn't like it. Or maybe you talked to the 15,000 parsers and got the same opionion from everyone. Some (and I am willing to guess even many) people enjoy playing specs which are performing well, this doens't specially relate to the rotation or playstyle though. Of course there are some extrems to it, as there were specs in the past which performed well but were boring to play.

I think there are signs that most mages prefer the playstyle of Frost over Fire. In BoD for example, the performance of Frost and Fire were very similar, but there was 10 times more Frost mages than Fire mages. It was only when Fire became completely OP that we saw a huge growth in the number of Fire mages.

- - - Updated - - -

You realize that if the pendulum swings the other direction the title of this thread just becomes "y Blizz maek all fite melee-friend huh?" And then mysteriously this thread is an anti-melee echo chamber and everybody agrees that life was better back when Blizzard just made melee eat shit 24/7.

But the pendulum did swing the other way in M+. And Blizzard did something about it. They should make raid encounters more diverse like they did with M+.

[ohwell]

Meanwhile they still stay popular despite devs attempts otherwise.

Because it's a complete utter garbage lie that gets perpetuated due to people like this saying it. "Melee is bad so raids won't take melee" is what makes raids not take melee. If you think Nzoth is so magically better for ranged, I'd look to the numerous gap closers and movement speed boosts melee have meanwhile ranged do crap damage while having to get into range of them at slower speeds.

[nyjl]

They came up with a solution in wotlk, however since then new nonbinary transgender developers forgot about it - you just make melee do more damage than ranged.

[Relapses]

You're pretty much applying double standards here. Just because you don't like the playstyle of fire mages, that doesn't mean everyone doesn't like it. Or maybe you talked to the 15,000 parsers and got the same opionion from everyone. Some (and I am willing to guess even many) people enjoy playing specs which are performing well, this doens't specially relate to the rotation or playstyle though. Of course there are some extrems to it, as there were specs in the past which performed well but were boring to play.

Ah yes, everybody found Fire to be fun. And that's why all 15,000 of those previously Fire Mages are... now suddenly playing Frost in the prepatch? That massive Fire rework in 9.0 must've sapped all the fun right out of the spec! *ahem* You're right that people find being stupidly OP fun but that in itself is such a ridiculous metric to gauge whether a class is, you know, actually fun that it's like trying to decide whether you should buy a video game based on Metacritic reviews.

[Kaver]

We have mechanics that work like that. Vexiona soak for example though that's for everyone. They do exists. Problem is that all mechanics can't be like that because then every boss is the same. As long as you try and make one or two mechanics that doesn't work in that regard ranged dps will pull ahead due to their range.

It's a significant advantage.

There are soooo many fights where you get some sort of debuff that you have to run away with to drop a patch on the ground or explode. This mechanics is seen in so many encounters. So they are already reusing the same sort of mechanics over and over again. And they should be able to make other melee mechanic than simply soaking something. They can make mechanics where the lack of mobility of caster becomes a disadvantage. Like when one of the adds of Opulence does the spinning flames. We need more mechanics like this that punish casters and reduce their uptime just like "running away mechanics" do for melee. It's only fair.

[Relapses]

There are soooo many fights where you get some sort of debuff that you have to run away with to drop a patch on the ground or explode. This mechanics is seen in so many encounters. So they are already reusing the same sort of mechanics over and over again. And they should be able to make other melee mechanic than simply soaking something. They can make mechanics where the lack of mobility of caster becomes a disadvantage. Like when one of the adds of Opulence does the spinning flames. We need more mechanics like this that punish casters and reduce their uptime just like "running away mechanics" do for melee. It's only fair.

You do realize that you're essentially arguing for all encounters to become Baleroc from Firelands again, don't you? :^)

What do you want Blizzard to do? Have a checklist of all raid mechanics and force them to add a commensurate number of fuck you ranged mechanics for every fuck you melee mechanic they add? I'd hate to be an encounter designer under your ideal conditions: Gone would be the days where I could just throw a dragon in a dungeon and have it breathe fire in a 90 degree cone. Nah -- now I've gotta meet our fuck you ranged DPS quotas or else the Melee Raid Mechanics Union will begin drafting harshly worded criticisms directed at my boss. Fuck man, why can't dragons just be dragons?

[Subrias]

The thing is a spec which is neither a melee or a caster is just OP AF. Why would anyone cripple themselves with melee abilities or cast time if they can just play a class which can ignore both.

I was implying i played it before they changed it to melee. #bringbackrangedsv :P . But what i feel they were trying to do with SV is something similar to how FFXIV handled Redmage... but it just didnt work. lol. (for those who dont know) Redmage is a caster/melee hybrid in ffxiv that has a melee combo every 20 or so seconds where they dash in, do 4 or 5 gcds, then have an ability that shoots them back out to ranged. their dps is pretty competitive too.

[Kaver]

You do realize that you're essentially arguing for all encounters to become Baleroc from Firelands again, don't you? :^)

What do you want Blizzard to do? Have a checklist of all raid mechanics and force them to add a commensurate number of fuck you ranged mechanics for every fuck you melee mechanic they add? I'd hate to be an encounter designer under your ideal conditions: Gone would be the days where I could just throw a dragon in a dungeon and have it breathe fire in a 90 degree cone. Nah -- now I've gotta meet our fuck you ranged DPS quotas or else the Melee Raid Mechanics Union will begin drafting harshly worded criticisms directed at my boss. Fuck man, why can't dragons just be dragons?

Mate think about it.... how many bosses in the last 3 expansions have had mechanics that goes:

- You get a debuff. Run away from the raid.
- You are targeted by a mechanic. Run away from the raid.

They already reuse the same mechanics over and over again. I don't buy into this whole "all encounters will become Baleroc" agenda. They can make diverse mechanics which favor melees. They just have to do it.

[The Butt Witch]

Ranged rock in PVE. Melee rock in PVP. If you're doing it viceversa, you're doing it wrong.

The only melee in PVE should be the tank, and the only ranged in PVP should be the healer.

BM hunter is a wild card because it's both.

[Baneto]

They came up with a solution in wotlk, however since then new nonbinary transgender developers forgot about it - you just make melee do more damage than ranged.

Assuming you're not trying to be edgy, what exactly does sexual orientation among developers have to do with melee/ranged differences?

[javierdsv]

Too late to care now, Nzoth is thing of the past. It's now time for the Almighty Sylvanas.

[Aphrel]

To add salt to injury it's worth pointing out that there are more melee dps specs than ranged dps! Outrageous!!!

this is the real culrpit here.

Blizz keeps adding fucking mele specs but also keeps designing raids enocunters where meles cant do mechanics while also having dps uptime on the boss.

[Kumorii]

There are soooo many fights where you get some sort of debuff that you have to run away with to drop a patch on the ground or explode. This mechanics is seen in so many encounters. So they are already reusing the same sort of mechanics over and over again. And they should be able to make other melee mechanic than simply soaking something. They can make mechanics where the lack of mobility of caster becomes a disadvantage. Like when one of the adds of Opulence does the spinning flames. We need more mechanics like this that punish casters and reduce their uptime just like "running away mechanics" do for melee. It's only fair.

Of course mechanics will be reused. That wasn't the point. Some fights have new mechanics some have only reused in different configurations, that's the nature of things.
Problem melee mechanics have is that they have constraints that ranged don't have. You have a small area in which all of the mechanics need to happen as well as you have to take into account that everyone at melee are more bunched up than ranged.

As soon as you have a mechanic that calls for spread among ranged compared to melee you have situations where ranged gets less penalised in spreading out while in melee the mechanic have more of an impact for everyone at melee. More people will lose dps output compared to ranged.

Any mechanic that requires repositioning will also affect melee more than ranged. Any repositioning is shorter for ranged than for melee in most cases. Like Ra-den for example. Melee have to travel lot further to deal dps to orbs and to get back to ra-den than ranged have to simply because they have ranged.

I mean, ranged do have mechanics which requires to move and reposition there is no shortage of that... my entire point is the ranged have it easier to deal with those than melee simply because they have RANGED attacks.

To adress you opulence example. Now we get back to my point on mechanics feeling the same rather than reusing mechanics. To make things like that which basically punishes ranged while not punishing melee you get a lot of constraints in how the mechanic can work. There more constraints you have to design a mechanic the similar the mechanic will feel and then we have to add this sort of mechanic to a lot of bosses which increases the frequency of this type of mechanic which once again leads to similarity.

Point is that ranged is such a big advantage over being melee simply from an adaptation pov. Ranged can adapt to situations more easily than melee can because they can attack from any range, while melee can't.

[Gestopft]

I never understood why they don't make more mechanics in melee range. Something that the melee dps and the tanks have to do in cooperation to deal with. That should be possible to design. No all mechanics have to be away from the boss.

Fun fact: ranged classes can actually stand in melee range to handle mechanics if need be.

And of course, the reason that lots of mechanics happen at range is because too many random effects in melee range and the frequent repositioning the boss that it requires tends to be highly punitive on all of the melee.

[Jastall]

You realize that if the pendulum swings the other direction the title of this thread just becomes "y Blizz maek all fite melee-friend huh?" And then mysteriously this thread is an anti-melee echo chamber and everybody agrees that life was better back when Blizzard just made melee eat shit 24/7.

Oh man, I still remember Nighthold which was the only tier in recent memory that favored melee both in terms of meters and mechanics (sans the broken OP Aff Locks). Oh my the tears.

[hulkgor]

People keep spewing this gibberish, but the fact is that a lot of times, it's the exact opposite and it's ranged dps getting shafted.

I'll give a recent example of Nighthold in Mythic.

Almost every fight was punishing for ranged classes that dealt with the fights mechanics, whereas melees simply stayed at boss dishing damage, with no specific mechanic to deal with, and no negative aspect for it.

It even got to the point of stacking melee for 'easy mode' on fights like Mythic Gul'dan (the end boss, y'a know?). You needed to take 4 ranged dps (so boss abilities wouldn't target melees), they'd dance around left and right throughout the fight dealing with mechanics, and you had anywhere from 10-12 melees doing the dummy thing.

So yea, boohoo if a raid or encounter, once in a while, is the opposite.

[Ragnarohk]

I remember WotLK being melee friendly. Or that was my impression as a feral.