I don't get something about m+15 dropping lower gear than heroic raiding

[Speedlance]

It should have different items for everything. M+ stats, raiding stats, pvp stats. This would solve any issue.
To solve gear taking up to much slots they could have had upgraded the wardrobe to store gear as well.

[Jonnusthegreat]

you mean "i have no argument so i rather refer you to whole thread so you look for it and i dont have to come up with something"
you just spewed some opinions why raids should be considered "better", absolutely nothing about why you think (incorrectly) they are more popular... without LFR absolute minority of people raided (and still do), and craploads of people do M+, just check logs and see...

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based on what other than YOUR opinion?
most people dont care about leaderboards at all, so stop pulling this shit out of your ass, bcs clearly its YOU who care about raids more than M+, not "people"...

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great, so now M+ is irelevant for M+ players, as hc raid which is piss easy will still give them better gear...
great "fix" of something... set bonuses on gear working only in raid/m+ depending on origin of gear would help with "irrelevancy" of content, this will just kill part of it

No, I mean, read the thread you're posting in before posting. It's literally a rule of the forum (and general human decency).

It's been posted.

It is a great fix. It slows down progression. That's a good thing. Separate sets would be a nightmare.

[enderzone]

No, they aren't making heroic raiding gear OP. They're making m+ gear weaker. It's a difference. M+ should feel similar if you're a raider but harder if you're not, under the new changes.

I think they needed a solution and made a call... not one I agree with but I get the reasoning.

Mythic 15 is far,far to easy to be rewarding heroic gear on live. It should really be pushed to a 20 taking into account the ilv you should have went attempting it and then mythic gear should be obtained from running a 25. Remove loot from failed runs and get rid of the weekly chest and you would have a pretty healthy progression system.

The new solution isnt really a good solution in my book. The weekly chest is still far to rewarding for what it is and honestly seems to exist so players can sell carries more then any kind of proper progression system.

[XMD7007]

Gear levels should always be comparable, no matter where you get it from.

[antelope591]

Its simple. Blizz looked at their metrics in BFA and realized that heroic and below raiding was basically dead due to M+ providing better gear and being easier + more convenient. Raiding has always been the core of WoW so this change was needed to bring raiding below mythic difficulty back to acceptable levels.

[Accendor]

Random battlegrounds don't offer the best ilvl rewards, yet people still keep doing them. We have proof the sky won't fall. People will still use it to gear up because it's easier than the other ways. It just won't be THE way to gear up anymore.

Random BGs get done because of the first pvp win each day giving conquest points, which indeed give very good gear for people who do not raid. In addition to that they always give progression to honor levels which give permanent cosmetical rewards.

Not many people do random BGs because they actually enjoy the experience.

[Eurhetemec]

Its simple. Blizz looked at their metrics in BFA and realized that heroic and below raiding was basically dead due to M+ providing better gear and being easier + more convenient. Raiding has always been the core of WoW so this change was needed to bring raiding below mythic difficulty back to acceptable levels.

It's possible that's the decision, but if so, I doubt it's going to be successful. People don't do M+ instead of raiding because of the gear. They do M+ instead of raiding because they don't enjoy raiding. Trying to create a situation where they're forced into raiding is likely to backfire, because there's nothing worse than raiders who don't want to be there, for whatever reason.

[Rtrain]

Raiding should be the highest gear possible - by a large amount. M+ doesn't have lockouts, so you can get a full set of the best gear day 1. It should be worse.

Raiding would have the highest gear possible anyways... by a large amount even if m+ gear was equivalent or slightly better than heroic.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Raiding would have the highest gear possible anyways... by a large amount even if m+ gear was equivalent or slightly better than heroic.

But if it's equivalent or better than heroic (like in BFA) then all tiers of raiding except mythic become meaningless for progression. The progression should not be Heroic raid -> dungeons -> mythic raid.

[enderzone]

Gear levels should always be comparable, no matter where you get it from.

To the difficulty you mean to say right?

[Asrialol]

Name the last time M+ leaderboards were posted on this website. Then name the last time raiding leaderboards were posted. Which is easier? Sources typically aren't needed for common sense facts.

The m+ community is larger than the raiding community. Perhaps you should double check facts instead of basing your "opinion" around a fan site.

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Popularity influences it. This is one data point that suggests raiding is the more important endgame. I cannot remember the last time M+ scores have been on the front page of this website. I can recall over 20 times raiding scores have been on the front page.

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We have also seen how M+ influencing raiding was unhealthy for the game and why things have evolved where they are now to where M+ does not reward high ilvl gear. Let's just disagree or we will be at this all day.

Jesus, again basing your views about what this fansite posts. Just check armory statistics for crying out loud.

I don't understand the whole spreading misinformation based off of moronic metrics that goes on here. Like, what. You can easily figure out which is the most popular by looking at armory statistics. Do you even know how many characters killed heroic Azshara, Jains, Nzoth, etc compared to characters who has done at least a m+ in BFA?

Clearly not.

[XMD7007]

To the difficulty you mean to say right?

Yes. For example it should not be the case that the highest ilvl is obtainable ONLY from mythic Raiding. A certain PvP rating and a certain level of M+ Dungeon should provide the same ilvl.

[Baneto]

snip

You're not doing any better by just saying the opposite, without providing proof for your claims.

[Jonnusthegreat]

The m+ community is larger than the raiding community. Perhaps you should double check facts instead of basing your "opinion" around a fan site.

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Jesus, again basing your views about what this fansite posts. Just check armory statistics for crying out loud.

I don't understand the whole spreading misinformation based off of moronic metrics that goes on here. Like, what. You can easily figure out which is the most popular by looking at armory statistics. Do you even know how many characters killed heroic Azshara, Jains, Nzoth, etc compared to characters who has done at least a m+ in BFA?

Clearly not.

Wow, gee golly, comparing completing a heroic end boss to completing the very first M+. This sounds like a perfect comparison. While you're at it, how many players completed a heroic end boss compared to how many players completed every +15 dungeon? Crickets? I see.

The community (this website specifically) cares more about raiding leaderboards than M+.

[enderzone]

Yes. For example it should not be the case that the highest ilvl is obtainable ONLY from mythic Raiding. A certain PvP rating and a certain level of M+ Dungeon should provide the same ilvl.

Kinda for mythic plus I agree I personally don't think pvp should reward any power at all but rather only be cosmetic but that is due to the nature of pvp. It makes no sense to give better players more powerful gear if your looking for a player vs player fight where skill should be the deciding factor.

[ClassicPeon]

Mythic raiding should definitely reward the highest ilvl in the game. Heroic raiding and mythic plus could potentially have the same ilvl rewards with heroic raiding offering perhaps some iniquely good trinkets/weapons. Mythic plus weekly cache could potentially reward slightly lower or on par with early raid mythic bosses ilvl.

PvP is an afterthought. I dont really care much as long as the ilvl rewards are lower then m+ and mythic raiding.

[Charge me Doctor]

Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?

You can farm m+ indefinitely, while raids are on weekly reset.

[epigramx]

You can farm m+ indefinitely, while raids are on weekly reset.

Yeah but the question was after you gear in heroic (which isn't that hard).
If m+ drops low level gear then it might only need THAT gear!
So I wonder if heroic gear makes it too easy.

[Redroniksre]

But if it's equivalent or better than heroic (like in BFA) then all tiers of raiding except mythic become meaningless for progression. The progression should not be Heroic raid -> dungeons -> mythic raid.

I think you overestimate how popular raiding is. Not very many people at all do it past normal at the very least. Unhealthy to base a game around a small percentage of players, and if it is about feeling superior, well this is a game not a competition. Play CS:GO if you want to do that.

[Charge me Doctor]

Yeah but the question was after you gear in heroic (which isn't that hard).
If m+ drops low level gear then it might only need THAT gear!
So I wonder if heroic gear makes it too easy.

Well, usually it takes a while to gear up in full heroic, and unless you are raidlogging -you will be doing some M+ to gear up. As in M+ provides you with decent "baseline" ilvl, while you wait for your heroic raid gear to drop.

And obviously gear makes content easier, that's the whole point of it, but M+ scales up, so it's not an issue