The Next Decade Could Be Even Worse

[Egomaniac]

Liberals changed their mind purely based on what the other side said. The only thing that caused minds to change was political utility.

Liberals changed their minds because their understanding of the virus changed...because they listened to Scientists.

Trump, on the other hand, continued to rail against the science, even though we now know he knew how bad it could get way back in February. He publicly contradicted his own task force multiple times. He accused doctors of inflating cases numbers because they wanted money.

[Theodarzna]

Romney came out against Trump well before the election.

Here's a little bit of his Anti-Trump speech back in march 2016:

The two former political foes had dinner together last night, joined by Mr Trump’s new Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, in their second meeting in over a week.

Mr Romney, the former Massachusetts governor who is in the running for Secretary of State, told reporters after the meal he was very “impressed” with Mr Trump and he thought “America’s best days are ahead of us”.

(source)

[Draco-Onis]

You are acting and discussing in a way that suggests as such. Trump's admin was counter-elite per Turchin's formulae because it was at least attempting to say run counter to the NatSecurity state or Free Trade fundamentalism that dominates the current elite. However, its not about policy, its about specific people. The Counter-Elite are not a policy difference per say, but an issue of position and who has it.

So take Mitt Romney, Romney on policy is not really different from Trump, Romney even initially went to Trump seeking an office in his new admin and was rejected and rather humiliatingly treated. The scorned Romney, denied his sinecure and shiny government office became a Counter-Elite, running against Trump. Why did he do this? Because he was denied an official position he wanted and wanted to martial himself some clout, prestige and power in a different way. Does it make sense to you now?

I am pointing out the obvious first you are making up the meaning of the word. Your logic is akin to hiring a mechanic in order to do brain surgery and labeling that as counter elite.

As for Romney we know his policies they are different from Trump as have been most Republicans. This administration had no guiding principle.

[Theodarzna]

Who was telling you lockdowns don't work?

Let's go back to the tape:

[szechuan]

Let's go back to the tape:

Again, Who was telling you lockdowns don't work?

[Egomaniac]

[IMG]


(source)

I didn't deny they had dinner. Just stated that Romney's Anti-Trump history predates him being rejected by Trump for a position. His speech talking about how Dangerous Trump would be for America took place long before that dinner.

[Theodarzna]

I am pointing out the obvious first you are making up the meaning of the word. Your logic is akin to hiring a mechanic in order to do brain surgery and labeling that as counter elite.

As for Romney we know his policies they are different from Trump as have been most Republicans. This administration had no guiding principle.

You are really lost in the partisan weeds here. You are trying to claim its a political disagreement, its not really political. Counter-Elite vs. Elite is largely about power, privilege and position, not about policy. Romney is a Counter-Elite because he wanted to be Trumps Secretary of State, was denied and ruthlessly humiliated and went to war over that.

You are fixated on your own conjecture about what these words mean and are mostly flailing looking for something to quarrel about. I've explained this twice to you but you just want to chatter one.

[Draco-Onis]

You are really lost in the partisan weeds here. You are trying to claim its a political disagreement, its not really political. Counter-Elite vs. Elite is largely about power, privilege and position, not about policy. Romney is a Counter-Elite because he wanted to be Trumps Secretary of State, was denied and ruthlessly humiliated and went to war over that.

You are fixated on your own conjecture about what these words mean and are mostly flailing looking for something to quarrel about. I've explained this twice to you but you just want to chatter one.

I claimed no such thing you are putting words in my mouth.

You are the one who keeps injecting politics, bluntly you stated that the fact that they were incompetent and unqualified made them counter elite.

[Edge-]

Let's go back to the tape:

March, while we were still learning tons about the virus and seeing sub-1K infections reported daily.

Even earlier, February, when we knew even less. This also has nothing to do with lockdowns, so I'm confused.

Also Feb 1, so again while we still knew even less than your first link.

February, though the end of the month. There's drama over this, but this was when PPE was still in ultra-short supply and the guidance was recommending people avoid it so that it would be available to health workers who were dealing with the virus daily.

Again, early March.

Basically your whole post is, "We didn't know as much about the coronavirus in Feb/March as we do now, and people were wrong earlier when we had far more limited information. How dare they change their tune now!"

I really don't know what this point of this was other than to highlight that yes, a great many people (including liberals) do actually change their opinions on a virus as the scientific community learns more and shares that knowledge with people.

How terrible?

Who was saying lockdowns don't work, and when?

[Egomaniac]

Let's go back to the tape:

Yeah I see "Liberals" from Feb. 18, March 2, March 4.

Why not show us April, May, June, July, etc?

At best, you are proving what I've been saying all along. That liberals change their positions when confronted by scientific evidence. It's not a winning argument for you. The more you try and push it...the more foolish you make yourself appear.

But then there's this...also from March:

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/12/211770...-covid-19-plan

“We’ll lead with science. We’ll listen to the experts. We’ll heed their advice,” he said. “And we’ll build American leadership and rebuild it to rally the world to meet the global threats we’re likely to face again.”

That's Joe Biden BTW. Or as you called him "The guy wearing a mask"

[shimerra]

February, though the end of the month. There's drama over this, but this was when PPE was still in ultra-short supply and the guidance was recommending people avoid it so that it would be available to health workers who were dealing with the virus daily.

Shhh @Theodarzna has super awesome memory, greater than 5 minutes I'm told although I'm not sure how someone could not remember something to painfully well communicated like masks not being encourage initially because of PPE shortages and not being sure how the virus spread to primarily protect health professionals who for sure would be exposed to health hazzards, and totally wouldn't misrepresent facts and the unless they were the very type of blind partisan she claims she isn't.

Oh wait she is lying and distorting facts in an eerie lockstep with conservative pundits and the president who to this day still deny the impact of the virus? Sorry carry on.

Seriously it gets old with that schtick that because she's intellectually and morally bankrupt and acts in bad faith automatically everyone else does too.

[Theodarzna]

Again, early March.

What changed after March? Oh! Right, Republicans went from "OMFG THIS VIRUS WILL MELT YOUR FACE, SEAL THE COUNTRY!" into "Ummmm Grandma has to die for Moloch.... I mean the ECONOMY! THE LINE MUST GO UP!"

Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy in March 24th. No "science" was discovered that changed peoples minds, the political valiance changed because a Texas GOPer suggested we let the Olds die for the Market.

Your claim that "Well we learned more science!" is just your personal headcanon, kind of like the idea that Obamacare is a stepping stone to Universal Health Care being actually anything other than a fanfiction you chose to believe. You guys claim "We learned more science" but I've seen no evidence that that happened, all I've seen and had cited is a political psycho-drama. Abbot is the sole reason anything changed. If some science came out that changed peoples minds feel free to cite it, but I can cite, and just did the exact moment it switched. The Liberals about faced from "The Pandemic is not cause for concern" to "OMFG WE GOTTA LOCKDOWN AND REPUBLICANS WANT TO KILL GRANDMA FOR THE MARKET!" and since then the entire political valiance has stayed locked.

- - - Updated - - -

I claimed no such thing you are putting words in my mouth.

You are the one who keeps injecting politics, bluntly you stated that the fact that they were incompetent and unqualified made them counter elite.

You've done nothing but put words in my mouth in every thread I've ever made. You've had the idea of "Counter-Elite" explained to you twice now. As I said before, you will never admit to being wrong so why are you still posting other than "I gotta have the last word".

[szechuan]

Your claim that "Well we learned more science!" is just your personal headcanon, kind of like the idea that Obamacare is a stepping stone to Universal Health Care being actually anything other than a fanfiction you chose to believe. You guys claim "We learned more science" but I've seen no evidence that that happened, all I've seen and had cited is a political psycho-drama. Abbot is the sole reason anything changed. If some science came out that changed peoples minds feel free to cite it, but I can cite, and just did the exact moment it switched. The Liberals about faced from "The Pandemic is not cause for concern" to "OMFG WE GOTTA LOCKDOWN AND REPUBLICANS WANT TO KILL GRANDMA FOR THE MARKET!" and since then the entire political valiance has stayed locked.

You've seen no evidence of it because you're willfully ignorant and lying, the Majority of Democrats were also clearly listening to Fauci.

If some science came out that changed peoples minds feel free to cite it, but I can cite, and just did the exact moment it switched.

Yet Democrats were much more prepared then Republicans who ignored Medical Scientists while Trump was still Shilling HQC and Demon Sperm Doctors.

The Liberals about faced from "The Pandemic is not cause for concern" to "OMFG WE GOTTA LOCKDOWN AND REPUBLICANS WANT TO KILL GRANDMA FOR THE MARKET!" and since then the entire political valiance has stayed locked.

Yet again you're completely ignoring what actually happened.

What changed after March? Oh! Right, Republicans went from "OMFG THIS VIRUS WILL MELT YOUR FACE, SEAL THE COUNTRY!" into "Ummmm Grandma has to die for Moloch.... I mean the ECONOMY! THE LINE MUST GO UP!"

Wrong, they were still claiming it's just a flu.

[Egomaniac]

What changed after March? Oh! Right, Republicans went from "OMFG THIS VIRUS WILL MELT YOUR FACE, SEAL THE COUNTRY!" into "Ummmm Grandma has to die for Moloch.... I mean the ECONOMY! THE LINE MUST GO UP!"

Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy in March 24th. No "science" was discovered that changed peoples minds, the political valiance changed because a Texas GOPer suggested we let the Olds die for the Market.

Your claim that "Well we learned more science!" is just your personal headcanon, kind of like the idea that Obamacare is a stepping stone to Universal Health Care being actually anything other than a fanfiction you chose to believe. You guys claim "We learned more science" but I've seen no evidence that that happened, all I've seen and had cited is a political psycho-drama. Abbot is the sole reason anything changed. If some science came out that changed peoples minds feel free to cite it, but I can cite, and just did the exact moment it switched. The Liberals about faced from "The Pandemic is not cause for concern" to "OMFG WE GOTTA LOCKDOWN AND REPUBLICANS WANT TO KILL GRANDMA FOR THE MARKET!" and since then the entire political valiance has stayed locked.

Even if we were to take all of that as fact (which, let's be clear, it isn't)... Republicans did not have to take the
"Science is bullshit, Doctors are liars" approach just because Democrats said "Listen to the Science". That's when it became a political issue.

The article I linked above, where it quotes Joe Biden talking about listening to Science...that's from March 12th...almost two weeks before your Lt. gov. started talking about sacrificing grandma. So, unless Joe Biden is a Time-lord... you're talking shit.

[wunksta]

What changed after March? Oh! Right, Republicans went from "OMFG THIS VIRUS WILL MELT YOUR FACE, SEAL THE COUNTRY!"

Which Republicans were saying this? Most didn't think it was a serious problem. The reason largely ties into the main OP:

Kabaservice says the tendency of GOP voters and officials to downplay the risk partly reflects Trump’s initially dismissive messaging about the crisis. But it may also relate to a deeper ideological suspicion of scientists, the media, and subject-matter experts within the federal government.

“This is something we’ve gone through a while here among Republicans,” Kabaservice says. “The feeling increasingly is that experts and the media are all part of this elite class that is self-dealing and is looking down on less-educated and less-fortunate people, and [that] they can’t be trusted to tell the truth.” He adds, “That dynamic … has been reinforced” by the emergence of the “conservative media ecosystem,” which unstintingly presents “elites” as a threat to viewers.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...avirus/608395/

[Edge-]

What changed after March? Oh! Right, Republicans went from "OMFG THIS VIRUS WILL MELT YOUR FACE, SEAL THE COUNTRY!" into "Ummmm Grandma has to die for Moloch.... I mean the ECONOMY! THE LINE MUST GO UP!"

Why are those two connected and not, say, the fact that as the months went on we learned more and more about the virus and better ways to protect ourselves/others?

Is everyone so hopelessly political that nothing they do can be free of political influence?

Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy in March 24th. No "science" was discovered that changed peoples minds, the political valiance changed because a Texas GOPer suggested we let the Olds die for the Market.

Yes, because the party that hasn't listened to science (and has made that a pole for their party tent with climate change rejection), didn't listen to the science somehow...that affects us?

No, everyone clowned on him. Hard. Nobody changed their view just because he told grandma and grandpa to die for the economy. We just clowned on a fucking idiot.

Your claim that "Well we learned more science!" is just your personal headcanon

Damn, I guess millions of us somehow have the same "headcanon"...which is kinda weird, because usually when that happens it's "reality", no a massive shared hallucination.

kind of like the idea that Obamacare is a stepping stone to Universal Health Care being actually anything other than a fanfiction you chose to believe.

That's a me belief, I don't speak for others with this.

You guys claim "We learned more science" but I've seen no evidence that that happened

We now know that it spreads through the air.
We now know that it doesn't live long on surfaces, and is largely only contracted if you touch an infected surface and then touch your face (minimal risk of getting it by eating/drinking something).
We now know that being indoors/close to people is the worst thing you can possibly do, and that socially distanced and outdoor activities are far less risky.
We now know the types of masks that are more effective at stopping the particles from spreading in the air.
We now know that masks are largely to stop you from spreading the virus, rather than protect you from others.

I could go on, but you're functionally arguing that literally nobody is paying attention and accusing us all of purely politically motivated views.

Theo, I'm higher risk. My best friend is EXTREMELY high risk. Both my parents have around a half-dozen high risk factors. My grandmother is high risk. I have plenty of other local friends and family that are high risk. Do you think that all of us aren't paying attention and sharing information so that we can continue to see each other IRL (gotta help the older family members with shit from time to time) while remaining safe and ensuring that we will have the lowest chance of spreading the virus in case one of us gets it? No Theo, we're staying informed because this shit has practical implications on our lives.

Not everything in reality is a deep-Twitter political thread.

Abbot is the sole reason anything changed.

Ah yes, when he spoke millions of doctors and scientists around the world suddenly went, "Yes, NOW we know!"

This is unhinged fantasy, Theo. Greg Abbot doesn't have that kind of power that you seem to think he does.

If some science came out that changed peoples minds feel free to cite it, but I can cite, and just did the exact moment it switched.

You did literally no such think. You linked some early information that has since been debunked, got called, and then proudly and without evidence claimed, "WELL GREG ABBOT CHANGED YOUR MINDS!" which is like...fuckin insane?

and since then the entire political valiance has stayed locked.

Since then the "political valiance" has been - follow the fuckin medical guidance so we stop killing people, stop overloading our hospitals, stop killing businesses, stop making more people unemployed and without health insurance, and operate as close to normal as we can until everyone is vaccinated.

Nobody, not liberals, not progressives, not anybody else, has argued for permanent lockdowns. The only time people have argued for them is when the spread of the virus is uncontrolled to the point where contact tracing isn't realistic.

You know, like how the US is right now with 120K+ new cases a day.

[Theodarzna]

Even if we were to take all of that as fact (which, let's be clear, it isn't)... Republicans did not have to take the
"Science is bullshit, Doctors are liars" approach just because Democrats said "Listen to the Science". That's when it became a political issue.

The article I linked above, where it quotes Joe Biden talking about listening to Science...that's from March 12th...almost two weeks before your Lt. gov. started talking about sacrificing grandma. So, unless Joe Biden is a Time-lord... you're talking shit.

Lol, yet you can't cite anything, you are just stating that over and over as if it is an accurate presentation of the past. The moment things changed, as I could actually cite was when Republicans switched from "We gotta shut stuff down to stop this virus!" to "Grandma must die for the Line!", you are going to have to actually cite some evidence of this "We listened to SCIENCE!" and not just reciting a popular piece of political talking points.

- - - Updated - - -

Damn, I guess millions of us somehow have the same "headcanon"...which is kinda weird, because usually when that happens it's "reality", no a massive shared hallucination.

Well, when lots of people consume the exact same media and are really locked into the DNC extended universe fandom, that is easy. Kind of like all the people who all read Qanon and thus believe Qanon stuff. Its not that hard.

Also, make a point, cite a source and please stop just splitting a million points from each sentence when you don't seem to have much evidence. You just stating "WE LISTEN TO SCIENCE" doesn't make that a meaningful phrase to keep reciting, nor is it itself proof.

I actually brought and cited a piece of evidence. And this gets tiresome to just be met withe the recitation of talking points and unfortunately I'm not allowed to put you on ignore for just flooding me with talking points and anger on your part.

[wunksta]

Lol, yet you can't cite anything, you are just stating that over and over as if it is an accurate presentation of the past. The moment things changed, as I could actually cite was when Republicans switched from "We gotta shut stuff down to stop this virus!" to "Grandma must die for the Line!", you are going to have to actually cite some evidence of this "We listened to SCIENCE!" and not just reciting a popular piece of political talking points.

Those comments happened late March. The polarization of the coronavirus had already started happening before then.

[Egomaniac]

Lol, yet you can't cite anything, you are just stating that over and over as if it is an accurate presentation of the past. The moment things changed, as I could actually cite was when Republicans switched from "We gotta shut stuff down to stop this virus!" to "Grandma must die for the Line!", you are going to have to actually cite some evidence of this "We listened to SCIENCE!" and not just reciting a popular piece of political talking points.

I'll cite it again:

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/12/211770...-covid-19-plan

Joe Biden’s coronavirus plan, explained
The plan draws a sharp contrast to Trump’s response so far.

By German Lopez@germanrlopezgerman.lopez@vox.com Mar 12, 2020, 4:20pm EDT

“We’ll lead with science. We’ll listen to the experts. We’ll heed their advice,” he said. “And we’ll build American leadership and rebuild it to rally the world to meet the global threats we’re likely to face again.”

Once Again, Joe Biden, from an article published March 12, talking about how he plans to lead with science and listen to experts....almost two weeks before your Lt. Gov. started talking about sacrificing Grandma.

[NineSpine]

What changed after March? Oh! Right, Republicans went from "OMFG THIS VIRUS WILL MELT YOUR FACE, SEAL THE COUNTRY!" into "Ummmm Grandma has to die for Moloch.... I mean the ECONOMY! THE LINE MUST GO UP!"

Texas' lieutenant governor suggests grandparents are willing to die for US economy in March 24th. No "science" was discovered that changed peoples minds, the political valiance changed because a Texas GOPer suggested we let the Olds die for the Market.

Your claim that "Well we learned more science!" is just your personal headcanon, kind of like the idea that Obamacare is a stepping stone to Universal Health Care being actually anything other than a fanfiction you chose to believe. You guys claim "We learned more science" but I've seen no evidence that that happened, all I've seen and had cited is a political psycho-drama. Abbot is the sole reason anything changed. If some science came out that changed peoples minds feel free to cite it, but I can cite, and just did the exact moment it switched. The Liberals about faced from "The Pandemic is not cause for concern" to "OMFG WE GOTTA LOCKDOWN AND REPUBLICANS WANT TO KILL GRANDMA FOR THE MARKET!" and since then the entire political valiance has stayed locked.

- - - Updated - - -



You've done nothing but put words in my mouth in every thread I've ever made. You've had the idea of "Counter-Elite" explained to you twice now. As I said before, you will never admit to being wrong so why are you still posting other than "I gotta have the last word".

1. The science on masks has evolved: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2...earch-evidence

2. Initial resistance to mask mandates was largely based on the idea that creating a public run on masks, and therefore creating a shortage for medical professionals, was not a great idea in the early stages of the pandemic. That was right. It would have been a mistake to encourage people to buy up masks in February.

3. You haven't backed up your actual statements. You said people on the left opposed lockdowns, masks, and travel restrictions. You haven't backed any of that up.

4. You seem confused about the timeline here. Nobody is complaining that Trump should have shut the country down in February. The issue is that he has questioned and opposed preventative measures for not just days or weeks, but MONTHS after there was broad scientific consensus that they needed to be done while also publicly lying about the severity of the issue. This isn't about who was right on February 3rd. This is about who was right in April, and May, and June, and July, and August, and September, and October, and November. The extent to which coronavirus has been a disaster for the United States is not about whether we did shutdowns a week too late. THis is about what we did once it was clear there was a problem and steps needed to be taken. In other words, this is like saying "Liberals say I should get chemotherapy now that I have cancer, but they didn't think I needed chemotherapy BEFORE I had cancer!" It's fucking bizarre.