Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[Super Dickmann]

Although that is still beating around the bush on the matter if Bastion is not severe enough in policing itself or no liberal enough. And considering that we operate on a basis that using constructs in no feasible for soul transfer then... What are the options?

That's what makes this an interesting situation in general. Push it any further on the control part and what are already iffy methods produce what are basically robots out of some of the best people in the universe. Give them more freedom and you end up with even more risks of personal bias in a system that's already got flaws beside that. Nevermind throwing people into the Maw for a second, suppose a Kyrian who's just allowed to remember wholesome memories of times with their family has to pick up their kid who died in an accident and now have to go get judged. What are the odds they decide that actually, their time isn't up yet?

[VladlTutushkin]

That's what makes this an interesting situation in general. Push it any further on the control part and what are already iffy methods produce what are basically robots out of some of the best people in the universe. Give them more freedom and you end up with even more risks of personal bias in a system that's already got flaws beside that. Nevermind throwing people into the Maw for a second, suppose a Kyrian who's just allowed to remember wholesome memories of times with their family has to pick up their kid who died in an accident and now have to go get judged. What are the odds they decide that actually, their time isn't up yet?

Well, they cant shove souls back into corpses and reanimate them. Maybe they can create undead but that is neither here nor there. Usually when Kyrian takes you away you are already dead as a brick. But i think some factor of delivering those souls into afterlives they chose instead of those they suppose to go will end up in more Bluether-like crap.

[loras]

literally yes he was and there was 2 hordes at that point...

Yes he could, she helped cause it was the right thing to do and she wanted the Horde to not kill everyone. Also Kul'tiras has been in the alliance for a long time, they actually left the Alliance after this battle....

At this point I realize you dont know what the Alliance is xD


Oh my bad, yeah kill as many of them as you want because they technically aren't a race...

That is something an evil person would say to justify their killing of a group they viewed as lesser than them.

But you just tried playing off what Garithos has done as not the Alliance, but here you have a group of Trolls who the Alliance are trying to wipe out on the Troll's own island, despite that these 2 groups having no history with eachother.

It was Jaina, humans and Silver covenant elves killing all blood elves or imprisoning them, because one elf helped Garrosh and it was so much bloodshed worth noting. You don't get to downplay it because it doesn't suit your bias.

So back to Alliance hypocrisy. The fact that you try to justify any of these, is how hypocrisy works. You believe what you do is justified while calling out others for what they do...

-
Not at all, first it was a remnant of the alliance of lirdaeron and not stormwind, second there wasn't any oversight from any organization due to, you know, the whole undead apocalypse thing. So yeah, pretty much exactly like the two hordes thing, if with even better reason for both of them to have not had a say in Garithos' actions.

-
Except you conflate, again, the alliance of lordaeron and the alliance of stormwind. By the time of Daelin lordaeron was no more, to say that Kul Tiras was part of a dead alliance is a weird sort of semantic nonsense that passes no scrutiny; it joined the present day alliance in bfa.

-
Thank you, i will certainly do so, many of them would thank me for it. And if i don't do so their ex-queen certainly seems to be willing to "release" them as well.

-
If they were a group, fair, but they're dead already. I just cause them to stop moving and suffering.

-
Trolls are trolls, they attack any human just as well.
It's warcraft, some races have too much history of bloodshed and will not stop killing eachother until depleted. Real world humans have extinguished countless species as well, many of them would have done the same if they had the power.
It might be harder to relate since most of our real opponents have no shapes or behaviour we can relate to, but the relation between trolls and humans can be best explained like the relation between real humans and any disease: we just go at eachother until either dies out, so far we've mostly won.
In the fight of humsn versus trolls humans dominate as well.

-
Exactly, imprisonment is not bloodshed, and casualties of violent resistance can hardly be blamed on the silver covenant given how dalaran attempted to stay out of the war. No, that blood was entirely on the blood elves' hands.

Oh please, such melodrama; you've chosen the evil faction, no problem! But at least be evil with some dignity rather than this pathetic whining.

[Soon-TM]

Bastion is already a place where you're stripped of all individuality, memories and your physical traits to become one with the blue monolith. If that's the best Shadowlands has to offer, then I say it's better to completely ignore the Shadowlands and just let you die when you die.

At this point, Bastion looks shady af, despite its bright, gleaming buildings and gorgeous landscapes. They're basically Scourge 2.0 as far as their methods go, except that this time we're told that it's for the greater good.

Not even the ass canning Revendrethians force you to become a drone of the big boss.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, they cant shove souls back into corpses and reanimate them. Maybe they can create undead but that is neither here nor there. Usually when Kyrian takes you away you are already dead as a brick. But i think some factor of delivering those souls into afterlives they chose instead of those they suppose to go will end up in more Bluether-like crap.

They can, one of the classes of Kyrians are basically Spirit Healers. It's easy to miss, since it's on one of the statues you see at the very start of Bastion explaining the roles there are.

[VladlTutushkin]

They can, one of the classes of Kyrians are basically Spirit Healers. It's easy to miss, since it's on one of the statues you see at the very start of Bastion explaining the roles there are.

Arent Spirit Healer are only for Big Wigs though? And cant just res ANY soul?

[Super Dickmann]

Arent Spirit Healer are only for Big Wigs though? And cant just res ANY soul?

It's one of the available roles and they're trusted to make the determination which souls to bring back or not. So technically they can bring just about anyone back (who isn't too powerful I suppose), they're just trusted not to do it.

[Aucald]

"B-B-BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HORDE"
Two wrongs don't make a right. The difference is the game wants you to treat the Kyrians as the good guys and assumes in advance you'd want to help them.

Not really insofar as the Kyrians go. At the end of the Spires of Ascension dungeon Devos fights the Archon and is defeated by the Maw Walker's intervention, but the Archon does concede that Devos has a point despite her brainwashing by the Jailer - she even mentions that the Kyrians may need to change their ways because their practices lead to the creation of the Forsworn.

[Varodoc]

I don't see anything wrong with the kyrians. The many should serve the few. You're not going to run a massive, cosmic-wide afterlife that transcends time itself by letting people do whatever they want. Unity is necessary. Order is necessary. You might despise how lawful the Shadowlands are, but you'd hate it much more if the afterlife were utterly chaotic.

Order is what distinguishes intelligent creatures from lowly beasts. It is therefore not a surprise that the fools Jailer and Sylvanas seek to tear down the cosmic order.

[tommyhil622]

I don't see anything wrong with the kyrians. The many should serve the few. You're not going to run a massive, cosmic-wide afterlife that transcends time itself by letting people do whatever they want. Unity is necessary. Order is necessary. You might despise how lawful the Shadowlands are, but you'd hate it much more if the afterlife were utterly chaotic.

Order is what distinguishes intelligent creatures from lowly beasts. It is therefore not a surprise that the fools Jailer and Sylvanas seek to tear down the cosmic order.

There's several issues and when you play the Kyrian storyline, you'll see even the Archon realizes there's an inherent problem of the way they do things in bastion.

[Varodoc]

There's several issues and when you play the Kyrian storyline, you'll see even the Archon realizes there's an inherent problem of the way they do things in bastion.

I already played it, and what I noticed is that the Forsworn are clueless fools.

Do you really think that, if the Forsworn won, they would create a more just and free system? They'd just replace the Archon's system with their own tyrannical one. The Jailer and Sylvanas would do the same thing. It's either do like the Archon says, or do like the power-hungry Devos and Uther say. Their poor idealism didn't deceive me.

I didn't say that the system laid out by the Archon is flawless, but let's not act like a Bastion ruled by the clearly evil Forsworn would be much better. Sadly Devos and Uther are idealist fools who are easily manipulated by the Jailer, similarly to Sylvanas. So they genuinely think that by tearing everything down they can create a free and equal system.

[tommyhil622]

I already played it, and what I noticed is that the Forsworn are clueless fools.

Do you really think that, if the Forsworn won, they would create a more just and free system? They'd just replace the Archon's system with their own tyrannical one. The Jailer and Sylvanas would do the same thing. It's either do like the Archon says, or do like the power-hungry Devos and Uther say. Their poor idealism didn't deceive me.

I didn't say that the system laid out by the Archon is flawless, but let's not act like a Bastion ruled by the clearly evil Forsworn would be much better. Sadly Devos and Uther are idealist fools who are easily manipulated by the Jailer, similarly to Sylvanas. So they genuinely think that by tearing everything down they can create a free and equal system.

I'm not insinuating that the forsworn had a better alternative, just saying that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system and the Archon realized this after Devos betrayal. The biggest flaw i see is that the good people who were fated to go to Bastion because of the good they did are being deprived of the very good deeds that deemed them worthy to be in Bastion. Yes Bastion should have unbiased individuals but you can make unbiased decisions without having your mind expunged. They also fail to give those who want a way out, to leave, they keep forcing Kyrians to go through this process until they rebel and become Forsworn.

[Varodoc]

I'm not insinuating that the forsworn had a better alternative, just saying that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system and the Archon realized this after Devos betrayal.

And yet the system is necessary. Kyrians MUST be as impartial as possible, that is why they must sever all their connections to their past lives. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Otherwise, you end up with Uther and Devos forsaking their job due to their memories to throw Arthas into the Maw for the sake of justice. And I am willing to bet that had something to do with the machine of Death breaking.

[tommyhil622]

And yet the system is necessary. Kyrians MUST be as impartial as possible, that is why they must sever all their connections to their past lives. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Otherwise, you end up with Uther and Devos forsaking their job due to their memories to throw Arthas into the Maw for the sake of justice. And I am willing to bet that had something to do with the machine of Death breaking.

You're missing the point, you can be impartial without getting your mind erased. The Devos situation shows that erasing the mind doesn't safe guard kryrians from bais. The Devos example is actually a counter to your argument. She went through the trails and she still committed the act. So did countless forsworn. The way they do things is flawed and needs to be corrected. The Archon realized this but had she listened before, many things could have been prevented instead being so regid she could have listened to Devos treat Uther, discover the Jailer's hand in that situation and it would have helped a great deal. Devos went the wrong way about it but so did the Archon.

[Tripzzz]

"From our first breath, to our last, every decision is made for us."

Does Slyvanus actually believe that? Wow, she is more retarded than i thought was possible. I guess Arthas, Kel'thuzad, Daelin, Garithos, Garrosh, Gul'dan, Archimonde and Kil'jaedan are all not responsible for their actions. It was all inevitably predetermined. It wasn't Arthas' fault he slaughtered the elves and transformed("rApEd!!1!!") her into a banshee, somebody else made that decision for him. LOL!!

[VladlTutushkin]

"From our first breath, to our last, every decision is made for us."

Does Slyvanus actually believe that? Wow, she is more retarded than i thought was possible. I guess Arthas, Kel'thuzad, Daelin, Garithos, Garrosh, Gul'dan, Archimonde and Kil'jaedan are all not responsible for their actions. It was all inevitably predetermined. It wasn't Arthas' fault he slaughtered the elves and transformed("rApEd!!1!!") her into a banshee, somebody else made that decision for him. LOL!!

Nah, people like her only see THEIR mistakes and evil actions as "predetermined". Everybody else in their twisted worldview is either responsible for all they did (and sometimes even for what they havent done yet) or simply an "NPC" and does not count as actual person , being only a stepping stone or a target.

[loras]

"From our first breath, to our last, every decision is made for us."

Does Slyvanus actually believe that? Wow, she is more retarded than i thought was possible. I guess Arthas, Kel'thuzad, Daelin, Garithos, Garrosh, Gul'dan, Archimonde and Kil'jaedan are all not responsible for their actions. It was all inevitably predetermined. It wasn't Arthas' fault he slaughtered the elves and transformed("rApEd!!1!!") her into a banshee, somebody else made that decision for him. LOL!!

To be fair: Arthas literally didn't get to decide that, given how he was dominated directly by the Lich King during that time.
It was only after Illidan cast his magic that undead Arthas had any free will.

And the Lich King was shackled by the Legion and kept in line by the dreadlords, his helmet was connected to the jailer and all that while sitting atop a glacier in a land infested by an old god.

If anything the more we see the less free will the scourge involved.

[Varodoc]

Stop trying to make sense of Sylvanas' stupid, childish philosophy, because it's not supposed to make sense. She's not some kind of "realist" who achieved enlightenment on how the cosmos works (that'd be her older sister), she's just a stupid emo who is salty that she went to hell while other people go to pretty afterlives. If she went to Ardenweald, she 100% wouldn't be salty at the Arbiter's system.

I will go as far as to say that Sylvanas is purposefully portrayed as a psycho whose motivations you're not meant to find reasonable. But then again, this is the same fandom that thought Jaina was evil for killing 10 elves (LMAOO), so I'm not surprised Blizzard couldn't get through to some people.

I mean, Anduin literally points out how her thought process is genuinely retarded, to which she does not reply at all. She just changes argument. The writers couldn't be more obvious.

[TheRevenantHero]

https://youtu.be/Ynmd_qFp5hY

Well... this is it boys? She is confirmed “secretly a good guy all along” and we can now skip the unnecessary parts between the launch of SL and its final patch and go play something else?
What really bothers me personally is how after all the ridiculously evil and “moustache twirling” things horde did in BfA they basically were forgiven and pushed all the blame on Sylvanas. All of it. You cant even hate horde now (talking from META perspective) without being totally in the wrong and evil vengeful maniac because it “werent them! It was all evil sylvanas! They are innocent, how can you even...!”
But then if Sylvanas also a hero that will fix the unfair afterlife somehow and yadda yadda... Then who’s fault is it? Who is to blame for all that evil? Or it just gets absolved and evaporates on a wind? I am struggling to understand the “message” Blizz sending our way. And message it is because they ALWAYS cramming “moral messages” into their narrative nowdays.

Your comment about Horde players saying "It was just Sylvanas and she was acting alone" is literally a comment made by Alliance fans any time someone mentions a terrible thing the Alliance has done in the lore. So it's pretty ironic that you're parroting that overused comment but accusing Horde players of taking that mentality. I've been playing the game since Wrath and this is literally the first time I've heard someone claiming that Horde players constantly try to say that a villain was acting alone with everyone else being innocent. Meanwhile, Alliance constantly say "Those evil lore characters in the Alliance were acting alone!" before then saying the Horde has done worse in order to justify shitty things the Alliance has done.

[VladlTutushkin]

Your comment about Horde players saying "It was just Sylvanas and she was acting alone" is literally a comment made by Alliance fans any time someone mentions a terrible thing the Alliance has done in the lore. So it's pretty ironic that you're parroting that overused comment but accusing Horde players of taking that mentality. I've been playing the game since Wrath and this is literally the first time I've heard someone claiming that Horde players constantly try to say that a villain was acting alone with everyone else being innocent. Meanwhile, Alliance constantly say "Those evil lore characters in the Alliance were acting alone!" before then saying the Horde has done worse in order to justify shitty things the Alliance has done.

Because biggest dick who was Alliance affiliated ever was either Daelin or Garithos. Daelin was a Kul'Tiras leader, and specifically commanded Kul'Tiran fleet while Jaina , his own daughter opposed him. Garithos was an upstart post-apocaliptic warlord with a chip on his shoulder and commanded a ragged "army" of refugees, surviving Lordaeron troops and some Dwarves who couldnt get to Khaz Modan and so had to stick around. Both cases only have the "bad apple" leading either one single faction or a mish-mash militia in a time of lawlessness. Unlike Horde who always lines up behind an evil Warchief/leader figure be that Gul'Dan (and yes, Gul Dan betrayed them but so did Sylvanas) , Garrosh or Sylvanas. Have i explained my point? If Varian for example went mad and decided to torch Thunderbluff or take over Silvermoon by force and put elves on a mana-diet and entire Alliance followed eagerly (because yes, both Garrosh and Sylvanas were pretty much celebrated as leaders until the very end) then i would have agreed with you.