https://www.youtube.com/@DoffenGG
Gaming and WoW stuff
I'm curious how people will take this. The whole thing is on well-calculated rails for the first few weeks of course, but a few months down the line the changes should start to sink in for even the dumbest of sheep.
"Organised heroic" is an oxymoron. You can bring whoever you want to heroic in pretty much any numbers at any time and clear it, finding 5 players who are good enough to clear a 15 on time is much harder, i.e "more effort" in your strange, illogical reward system. Heroic will be pugged the moment it releases because it's absurdly easy content.
If you think Heroic requires "organisation" then yes, we absolutely are playing different games. The current version of "Heroic" is the difficulty level previous occupied by Normal up until the creation of the LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic paradigm. It's the mode for the "average" skill level player, Normal for the below average, and LFR for turning your brain off and playing on Peaceful. I'm sorry, but Heroic is just not even close to the difficulty level of a +15 key unless you're afking every pull for bloodlust and cooldowns.
I mean... Thanks for the arbitrary stat you pulled out of nowhere, I guess. Regardless, "5% of the playerbase" is a meaningless metric when the vast majority of players don't even attempt to raid. I suspect that if you removing gold-boosting from the equation, the number of players who time every dungeon on a +15 by the end of a patch is infinitely smaller than the number of people who clear Heroic, simply because +15s in time are objectively more difficult from a skill perspective than Heroic raiding is.
It's not from nowhere, it's from wowprogress. Wowprogress keeps track of every first kill for heroic and mythic for every raid tier since Ulduar. And the 5% of the playerbase is actually 5% of wowprogress uploads, which is much less than 5% of the playerbase, but that's not the point. So if I look at wowprogress I see 20625 guilds killed heroic Wrathion and the first kill of heroic N'Zoth was on Jan 22 2020. A little bit of scrolling later and we see 1280 guilds killed him before Jan 29th, the first reset of Ny'alotha. So about 6%. This of course does not count people that failed to upload a heroic guild, such as guilds that find normal challenging or guilds that failed on Wrathion.
This is of course not perfect data.
If you want to talk end of patch stuff, according to dataforazeroth, 62% of people got BFA keystone master and 58% of people got AOTC for N'Zoth.
Speaking anecdotally, I have been in lots of different kinds of guilds from serious mythic progression guilds to more casual social guilds that raid normal for fun and just dip their toes into heroic. I have not generally seen people that struggle with the last boss on heroic, (Which is usually a fair bit harder than the first 3 on mythic.) struggle with timing +15s or +10s, (depending on what is required for keystone master in that patch.) and there's no particular reason to believe that A, gold boosting has a substantial impact on the number of people able to complete this content or that B m+ boosts are bought at significantly higher rates than heroic raid boosts.
I would also say that heroic and +15s are not really meant for average skilled players. I would say that LFR and heroic dungeons are meant for average players, M0s low m+ and normal is meant for above average players, regular max m+, (10/15) and heroic is meant for extremely skilled players and beyond regular max m+ and mythic raiding are meant for the most skilled players.
I just wanted to say that watching "OrcsRLame" destroy "Nzx" with logical data was amazing. I love watching ignorant trolls getting pwnd.
I was going to unpack your entire comment and argue the whole thing piece by piece but it became a waste of time the moment I read this.
You don't read the achievements at best, or you don't even understand the data you're quoting at worst. The 62% figure is Keymaster, aka literally completing the dungeon with any key whatsoever. BFA KSM for season 4 AKA Ny'alotha was only achieved by 33% of players, roughly half the number of people who got AoTC in that season. Using your own data, it's blatantly evident that clearing all +15s in time is at least twice as difficult as Heroic raiding, which pretty much everyone already knew, but I'm glad I could easily prove it to you.
By the way, the stats for other seasons are even worse - one percent of players achieved KSM in S1 vs 28% for AOTC G'huun, for example. You are objectively, demonstrably wrong.
Okay, yeah, we're playing two very different games. Do you play blindfolded with one hand tied behind your back and your sound turned off? That's literally the only way I could understand you thinking Heroic requires "extreme skill"..
Try again, buddy. Pays to check the sources yourself before announcing someone got "pwned".
None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.
not really its not.
take a tank with you and you wont even notice last boss exist
did it as tank and never dropped below 90% of my health on last boss on L3s while doing it solo - which meant fight dragged on for like 2+ minutes.
people stop playing mmorpgs solo and complaining your experience suck .
how many of you did thorgast in 5 man 177 itlv group ? i bet that version was like "lol easy "
Going about metrics is hard because you need to read them correctly, i have no idea for example in both directions how popular HC raiding to 10/15 loot cap m+ is.
What i have an idea about is what i did and what my experiences where for the last 4 years in Legion and Bfa, i've been raiding in a casual 2 night aotc guild that would usually need 3-4 weeks for HC until we dabbled in some mythic bosses, meanwhile the moment the mythic raid was out we where able to get a lootcap mythic+ for the weekly chest done in time, everytime.
We did this in guildgroups of 5 usually but when someone was a miss getting someone random in with some brains thanks to r.io was no problem either.
Also just mechanicaly speaking your argument doesn't make sense to me.. yeah fine, you have the affixes of the week and are under time pressure, but we never had to do overwhelmingly hard pulls and most dungeons bosses are easy anyways to ger it in time.
So again, are we playing the same game especially early when the raid is out? That HC pugs are common a few weeks in may be, but not at the start to my experience.
Myhtic+ 15 end chest being below HC level is a freaking slap in the face for any M+ player. I understand it cannot be on par with mythic raiding, but beeing up to 13 ilvls below HC is disgustingly bad design.
All you can do now is progressing via your weekly chest while the actual dungeon loot is pretty much useless after a few weeks. This will not work out for the majority of the more casual M+ players, I can already tell you.
The following will happen: M+ now will have no core players to progress through the ranks. Entry level M+ to gear up alts will be done as usually, then we might face a large gap between M+ ~5 and 14. On the higher end the actual M+ fanbase that focuses on pushing keys will remain (which are coincidently also the players that raid mythic and thus do not care about the loot aspect of the final chest anyway)
Conclusion: M+ only players will have considerable worse gear than raiders and are now forced to play mythic raid to be accepted to high M+ keys