Masterloot should return

[msdos]

One of our tanks left over a gear dispute, apparently someone didn't give him some gloves or some crap? I didn't even know why he left until a week or two later.

So the "loot drama" thing is a moot point.
Something you have to understand about human beings in general is that they are goal post movers, you can hand them what they want and they will still shift on you, bite the hand that feeds, lie, change their mind, etc, it doesn't matter.

Knowing that, having more options is better than fewer and no master loot is just fewer.

[Razion]

Except it's not, and is arguably worse now in some cases. Just last night we had a bunch of good mythic raid loot go to waste because it wasn't tradable due to personal loot rules, even though every individual was of the mindset of wanting to give the loot to someone else who needed it way more due to either having a weapon already (since the tokens still bind if you're a class that can 2H and 1H+OH) or having a legendary in that slot. Also had a few small ilvl upgrades when other people could've had a much larger gain from having the gear. The only thing personal loot did was make it harder for a group to control their loot distribution, even if everyone involved was on board with it. Blizz took that choice away from the players with the removal of Master Loot.

The idea that the removal of Master Loot would just solve any problems associated with Master Loot with no negative side effects is ridiculous. As with any system, there are upsides and downsides. The one huge downside I run into constantly with Personal Loot is that more often than not, I don't have control over what I do with my loot when it matters during progression and initial gearing. Add on top the limited amount of loot compared to recent expansions, and the system currently is way more frustrating.

I'm of the mindset that Master Loot should definitely return for mythic raiding. Also, the ilvl restrictions should probably be removed with Blizz truly wants players to have full autonomy over their loot in a Personal Loot system... because crazily enough, some people just want to help out others, which is something the Personal Loot system doesn't promote.

Loot going to waste is more a byproduct of ilv not actually being a valuable metric in determining upgrades. Didn't Blizzard say they were going into some of the recent expansions on the philosophy that an item level upgrade should mean the gear is an upgrade? If it were, the mindset of higher item level loot you getting in personal loot not being an upgrade wouldn't be a thing. It's an issue with how they did itemization.

Millions of people play this game. There are absolutely so many ways one individual with all the power to control loot in the group can make it a bad time for everyone else. Personal loot is better for groups because it gives everyone an equal opportunity to get loot. Yes the item level not being indicative of an upgrade right now isn't how it should be working -- they said early on that item level was going to be reflective of upgrades and it ended up not being the case and so a lot more loot is being wasted than would have been the case if it had been working as they said it was going to. This was a concern with balancing and frankly it should have been addressed.

[T-34]

They should not return master loot, but rather make personal loot even more strict and completely disallow any loot trading at all. As of now, guilds still exploit their members and forcing them to trade loot, that is unacceptable and Blizzard should fix it immediately.

How can you force someone force you to trade away something that is in your bag?

[Logwyn]

No way. If they do. I'm making my own world boss group setting that thing to Masterloot. Then all your loot belong to us (me).

This system is way better. I might see if for mythic raids and ONLY mythic raids. But we are better off with things the way they are.

[Merlunie]

They should not return master loot, but rather make personal loot even more strict and completely disallow any loot trading at all. As of now, guilds still exploit their members and forcing them to trade loot, that is unacceptable and Blizzard should fix it immediately.

I didn't know MMOC had a fan fic section.

[rogoth]

I was replying to another dude's off-topic reply with WotLK fanfiction. I don't know what the fuck you expected.

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Really? Deterministic loot systems have...downsides? You don't say.

genuinely not sure what your issue seems to be but the sarcastic at best, patronising at worst tone isn't appreciated, furthermore just because you seem to have some kind of vendetta against older versions of the game doesn't mean others do, furthermore, it should be noted that when i made my initial point i was thinking more about the TBC gearing system where casual players could literally buy their BiS gear from the 'at the time' new badge vendor, but raiders still needed to raid to get the weapons and trinkets for full BiS.

as far as the whole deterministic loot being an issue, it's really not it's all just perceived, but sadly the playerbase is a hivemind and as soon as something is perceived to be a problem it gets tried, sentenced and executed in the court of public opinion, not to mention that blizz would never allow that system to return because as i said before, they need the MAU numbers to show the investors that the game isn't doesn't look as dead as it actually is, so anything that impacts that is a big no no from management.

[Relapses]

genuinely not sure what your issue seems to be but the sarcastic at best, patronising at worst tone isn't appreciated, furthermore just because you seem to have some kind of vendetta against older versions of the game doesn't mean others do, furthermore, it should be noted that when i made my initial point i was thinking more about the TBC gearing system where casual players could literally buy their BiS gear from the 'at the time' new badge vendor, but raiders still needed to raid to get the weapons and trinkets for full BiS.

as far as the whole deterministic loot being an issue, it's really not it's all just perceived, but sadly the playerbase is a hivemind and as soon as something is perceived to be a problem it gets tried, sentenced and executed in the court of public opinion, not to mention that blizz would never allow that system to return because as i said before, they need the MAU numbers to show the investors that the game isn't doesn't look as dead as it actually is, so anything that impacts that is a big no no from management.

What if I told you that it has nothing to do with MAUs (which is a terrible fucking argument) and a lot more to do with things that you're completely dismissing because you're a fan of deterministic options? You know, like, engagement? Like I've said in every reply I've had to you.

[rogoth]

They should not return master loot, but rather make personal loot even more strict and completely disallow any loot trading at all. As of now, guilds still exploit their members and forcing them to trade loot, that is unacceptable and Blizzard should fix it immediately.

from this statement is clear to see you have never been in an organised raiding guild that is progress minded, because this is one of the most moronic things i have read in regards to this topic, and that says something, first off, nobody is forcing anybody to trade gear, their is a general mindset between raiders of a certain calibre that the group is worth more than the individual parts, therefore making sure upgrades are distributed properly to those that get the best out of them will make life easier for EVERYONE moving forward, it's very apparent you do not have this mindset due to the social grooming of LFR and other low tier content that you have engaged with over the years, if however on the other hand this post is entirely sarcastic in nature then my bad for missing the joke initially, but something tells me you are actually serious with your post.

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What if I told you that it has nothing to do with MAUs (which is a terrible fucking argument) and a lot more to do with things that you're completely dismissing because you're a fan of deterministic options? You know, like, engagement? Like I've said in every reply I've had to you.

i'm confused, how does earning a currency through gameplay in areas of the game you are already ENGAGING IN, (since that's your buzzword of the day it seems), and then using said currency to buy an item that will be powerful enough to allow you to clear all the content RELATIVE to that gears power level that you wish to partake in?

i may be out of touch here but i fail to see the issue with this kind of system outside of what i already mentioned, on top of that if a person wishes to improve on what they have there's a clear pathway for that raiding or higher level PVP (whichever they prefer), or when it gets addressed and gear rewards are worth the time investment, higher tier M+ if that's where they want to dedicate their time and energy.

you start out fresh, you get some low level crafted gear/world quest gear/dungeon drops, you upgrade to higher level crafted gear/higher level dungeon drops, you then use the currency you have been generating to buy better quality items, step into raiding and get the best gear possible, that's how it has always worked until they removed vendors in legion and aside from the aforementioned issues of having too many vendors or convoluted currencies, the basic principle is fine and perfectly valid.

[vsb]

How can you force someone force you to trade away something that is in your bag?

You either trade it or get kicked from the guild, it's simple as that.

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from this statement is clear to see you have never been in an organised raiding guild that is progress minded, because this is one of the most moronic things i have read in regards to this topic, and that says something, first off, nobody is forcing anybody to trade gear, their is a general mindset between raiders of a certain calibre that the group is worth more than the individual parts, therefore making sure upgrades are distributed properly to those that get the best out of them will make life easier for EVERYONE moving forward, it's very apparent you do not have this mindset due to the social grooming of LFR and other low tier content that you have engaged with over the years, if however on the other hand this post is entirely sarcastic in nature then my bad for missing the joke initially, but something tells me you are actually serious with your post.

I'm serious, I raid for loot like 99% of other players and I don't want to share that loot. I'm mythic raider, btw.

[rogoth]

You either trade it or get kicked from the guild, it's simple as that.

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I'm serious, I raid for loot like 99% of other players and I don't want to share that loot. I'm mythic raider, btw.

first point, if you're in a guild where you are 'forced to trade loot regardless' that's on you, not blizzard, and not the system in place.

secondly, you are part of a group that enters a raid on mythic difficulty, you are NOT a mythic raider, your statements and general tone make this very apparent, like i explained, the mindset you have is the wrong mindset for mythic raiding and progression raiding, the point of which is to first of all have fun with the content you're doing, second is to make sure you're at a level that is appropriate for your skill range, and lastly if it's a group based activity like this, that you understand that you are one piece of a greater whole and that if you make smart choices that allow your group to progress as a whole, then you too will progress, it shouldn't matter who gets the new shiny loot first if it doesn't help the group, by all means raid for loot as your first priority, just make sure you understand that you are not a progression raider, you are not helping your raid team with this mentality, and you are ultimately harming your chances of progressing by not helping others if you are able to by sharing your drops with the group where it makes sense.

[Biomega]

One of our tanks left over a gear dispute, apparently someone didn't give him some gloves or some crap? I didn't even know why he left until a week or two later.

So the "loot drama" thing is a moot point.

It's not about absolutes, it's about degrees.

Does personal loot eliminate 100% of all loot drama? No. But it's much less than it used to be with master loot.

[Relapses]

from this statement is clear to see you have never been in an organised raiding guild that is progress minded, because this is one of the most moronic things i have read in regards to this topic, and that says something, first off, nobody is forcing anybody to trade gear, their is a general mindset between raiders of a certain calibre that the group is worth more than the individual parts, therefore making sure upgrades are distributed properly to those that get the best out of them will make life easier for EVERYONE moving forward, it's very apparent you do not have this mindset due to the social grooming of LFR and other low tier content that you have engaged with over the years, if however on the other hand this post is entirely sarcastic in nature then my bad for missing the joke initially, but something tells me you are actually serious with your post.

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i'm confused, how does earning a currency through gameplay in areas of the game you are already ENGAGING IN, (since that's your buzzword of the day it seems), and then using said currency to buy an item that will be powerful enough to allow you to clear all the content RELATIVE to that gears power level that you wish to partake in?

i may be out of touch here but i fail to see the issue with this kind of system outside of what i already mentioned, on top of that if a person wishes to improve on what they have there's a clear pathway for that raiding or higher level PVP (whichever they prefer), or when it gets addressed and gear rewards are worth the time investment, higher tier M+ if that's where they want to dedicate their time and energy.

you start out fresh, you get some low level crafted gear/world quest gear/dungeon drops, you upgrade to higher level crafted gear/higher level dungeon drops, you then use the currency you have been generating to buy better quality items, step into raiding and get the best gear possible, that's how it has always worked until they removed vendors in legion and aside from the aforementioned issues of having too many vendors or convoluted currencies, the basic principle is fine and perfectly valid.

There's a difference between playing a game where gear feels like a shopping list and one in which random rewards actually feel... rewarding. The deterministic gear systems of days gone by all but destroyed the latter feeling. Saying that they're afraid to bring them because they're "padding MAUs" or whatever is ridiculous because this argument can be used to support pretty much anything Blizzard does or doesn't do. (ie, "No fair, I didn't get my BiS weapon from the raid boss. Now I have to kill it again next week...fucking MAUs!!!!111") It's of course personal preference and obviously there are a lot of fans of deterministic gear systems; I generally don't have a problem with people having different opinions than I do, but I see a lot of people making arguments which completely ignore the downsides of these systems so they can come to the very unique conclusion that the only reason it isn't like that any more is because Blizzard is a (insert Jim Sterling here) TrIpLe-A gAmE dEvLoPeR.

[vsb]

first point, if you're in a guild where you are 'forced to trade loot regardless' that's on you, not blizzard, and not the system in place.

secondly, you are part of a group that enters a raid on mythic difficulty, you are NOT a mythic raider, your statements and general tone make this very apparent, like i explained, the mindset you have is the wrong mindset for mythic raiding and progression raiding, the point of which is to first of all have fun with the content you're doing, second is to make sure you're at a level that is appropriate for your skill range, and lastly if it's a group based activity like this, that you understand that you are one piece of a greater whole and that if you make smart choices that allow your group to progress as a whole, then you too will progress, it shouldn't matter who gets the new shiny loot first if it doesn't help the group, by all means raid for loot as your first priority, just make sure you understand that you are not a progression raider, you are not helping your raid team with this mentality, and you are ultimately harming your chances of progressing by not helping others if you are able to by sharing your drops with the group where it makes sense.

You're sound like a religious fanatic. I kill mythic bosses, therefore I'm mythic raider, that's about it. I don't need "right mindset", "have fun" or "be one piece of a greater whole" to kill mythic bosses. I just press buttons and get loot.

[deenman]

I'm glad the drama and gear funneling is gone. Good riddance to Master Loot. Long live Personal Loot.

there was no loot drama among serious competitive guilds,we all knew the gearing process was for the better of progression,now if you have to get someone new or an alt to help with a boss,and they are dead weight,because its better than going in 19,and they end up getting someting they cant even trade...how is that not much worse?

btw i think personal loot is AWSOME,i just dont think forcing it is

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It's not about absolutes, it's about degrees.

Does personal loot eliminate 100% of all loot drama? No. But it's much less than it used to be with master loot.

serious guilds still treat all pl loot as master loot,only in cases where it cant be traded ofc thats that,this forced plm change has only led to more drama and bad feelings,because now you are told to give something you got away

[LauraHydra1]

I vastly prefer personal loot.
Master looter was just way too open for abuse, and there wasn't much you could do about as a player. I tried opening tickets several times and was repeatedly told that GMs couldn't do anything.
One guild group I ran with a few times allowed the guild leaders girlfriend to call dibs on whatever she wanted. I (and others) missed out on upgrades because she wanted stuff for transmog or off-spec.
There was one raid group who became infamous for saying loot would be distributed after the final boss, and then kicking pug players immediately after the fight, and there was nothing GMs would do.
I'm sure there are still raid groups that have a "you will trade items when ordered" policy, but it is a lot harder to screw over pugs now, and that is a good thing.
And from what I've seen, people are usually happy to offer stuff they don't need up for trade anyways, it's just that now, players can't get screwed out of upgrades as easily anymore.

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How can you force someone force you to trade away something that is in your bag?

"Trade the item to player X or we kick you off the raid team"

"We're not moving to the next boss until you trade the item"

If it's a high-level mythic group and you're the new guy or one of the more easily replaced players...you might just cave. If you run with the same people every week, the social pressure can build up.

I do remember people trying to get pushy about loot trading in early legion LFR, but obviously they had nothing to back their demands up with.

There was a horrible addon that displayed who an item would be an upgrade for under the loot notification, which led some players to feel entitled to be given the item. It was sometimes quite funny to see them whine. One tried to tell me I HAD to give him an item, or I would be banned for violating policy.

[Mhyroth]

I remember when it was announced that ML would be gone, everyone lost their minds and few said it was good for the game.
Now it's the complete opposite and the majority says it's fine and only few want ML back. How the tables have turned. (Or all the players who preferred ML have quit)
Both PL and ML have their pro's and cons and no system is perfect, there will always be something which is disliked or abused.
Anecdotal evidence here but in all my years playing the game I have never seen anyone ninja an item or break Loot Rules set up by the Guild. Neither have my friends. If someone makes a run and reserves item X then so be it, don't join if you want a shot at this item..
Looting doesn't magically go faster now than 5 years ago (due to trading still) and drama is still imminent if we should believe Forums.
To answer the OP's question: yes I think ML should return in some way shape or form for Guilds to decide what to do with it. Having Blizzard decide everything you do and tell you how to play the game and progress is not how they started out and shows what their prio's are. (Player metrics)

[Kaver]

You want to bet that hardcore guilds would be ok with this type of thing happening? Assuming that mythic item level of current raids are lower than the normal/heroic item level when an new raid comes out, these guilds pushing world firsts would be completely gimped on their gear towards a world first kill. Yes these guilds will run heroic typically the first week a new raid is released to get some pieces to help them with the push on mythic the following week or the week after that (whenever Blizzard unlocks mythic after a raid is released). That alone is one reason why these hardcore guilds would not support it.

Then you have your average guild pushing normal or heroic. If there was a badge-only system in place a guild who might be able to clear half a raid during a reset would assumingly get around 10-12 items for their raid to possibly use (assuming 2 or 3 items per boss between all raid members and about 5 bosses killed). With personal loot, or even the previous master loot, pieces of gear could be given to people within the raid who need the gear so someone who is newer to the guild could get 2-5 pieces of loot per week assuming the guild has the raid on farm and not that many people need drops. With a badge-only system in place that would eliminate that newer person's chances of getting gear significantly. Then you have the whole pugging raids factor involved. Currently if you pug a raid you have a higher chance at getting drops than running with your guild typically. In a badge-only system, you're pretty much fucked if you don't clear every single boss during the week in hopes of getting enough badges to get a piece or maybe two from a vendor. Because if you think Blizzard is going to add a system in place where ALL gear is from a vendor from badges earned from doing raids, they will NOT give you enough badges to get more than 1 piece per week because they want to stretch your monthly sub fees across several months so you keep subbed to get that gear.

1) You simply lack a general understanding of how the top guilds work. Hardcore guilds don't mind being "gimped" as long as it's consistent and the competition is also gimped. They just want an even playing field. If you think that top guilds enjoy split raiding with random people to trade loot then you are completely off. I can refer you to the recent interview preach made with Max, Tagz, Roger and Scripe. They specifically talk about how they don't mind Blizzard "gimping" them if it means they don't have to do split raids. Because all they really want is to play with their friends and progress. Also in the current raid tier, they actually didn't get much loot from the raid anyway. Most of the loot they used during the race came from M+, PvP and BOEs. You should educate yourself on this topic before thinking you are an expert.

2) You're right about the guild only doing 5 bosses. But that's fine. Gearing should be slow. In that case the guild would just need to clear those 5 bosses 2 week in a row and they would all have enough badges to buy one piece of gear each. That would be completely fine.

3) The game should in my opinion not be designed based on pugging at all. Pugging is the root of most bad things in the game. 99% of all bad stories in here are based around pugging.

4) You're right that you wouldn't be able to funnel loot into new players. But that's completely fine in my opinion. New players can do M+ and PvP to catch up on gear. They don't have to depend on welfare from raid groups.

5) I just saw your thread about Hunter's Mark on the hunter forums. It really makes me question your general knowledge about the game when you ask a question like that. I think I will end my discussion with you on any topic here.

[MrPaladinGuy]

[Wedny22]

In what kind of environment are you people playing that you do not want masterloot? Seriously..Personal loot is a horrible, insane Idea that only is here because people want purple pixels way to much. Progress is more important as loot. Loot is a means for progress.
If you play for loot, stop playing WoW and get a high paying job, then you can het IRL loot, whay actually marters.
Loot whores are only here for my entertainment, and like minded people as me.

[froschhure]

simple and no

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lootfiesta with rng > masterloot with EVEN less loot

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only big guilds want masterloot and their reign over randoms