M+ and Raider.IO

[Nargrom]

I want to start by saying that given this is a hot topic humor me and read what i want to say before you reply please. Thank you.

Now the main topic. Ever since R.IO became a thing, it is noticed that Pugs have high requirements and expectetions from the people that sign in their groups.
This results in many players mostly on the casual spectrum to feel frustrated and find R.IO unjust, unrealistic, a tool that feeds elitism and so on.

I started pushing keys in BfA mostly and that was after Season 2 where player power was already high and pushing into 15s - while it required effort - was a lot easier to achieve than the starting season of an expansion like we are now, where power is still somewhat limited and you can see that difficulty scaling up from +13 to a +14...

My big question to the forum is, are you really annoyed by R.IO or is this just a reaction to being declined in keys?

This season i had to work my ass off in m+ because most of my premade group plays on different hours than me. That meant for me that i had to work my way up the ladder. I main a Resto Shaman and when the season started i did some low keys with the guild to prepare for raiding and that gave me about 500 r.io. The guild mates werent really interested in pushing at the time, so this meant that i had to pug keys. As a Resto Shaman ( which i believe is a ''meta'' class for this season or flavor of the month ) i was signing up in over 30 keys to get invited eventually into one and thats on the 500-600 r.io scale.

Eventually after lots of pugging and lots of failing, i managed to climp on the ~750 r.io scale, that meant most of the dgs was at +8 and +9. At that point a friend of similar to mine r.io decides to join me ( Guardian Druid ) so we finally start pushing 10s and above. So we start making our own groups, doing our research on proper pulling paths, where he might need most of my healing and etc, basically making sure that the tank/healer part of a pug is completely covered with minimal room for error - cause there is always room for error in m+ no matter how good you are. This meant that we had to pug 3 dps.

My critirea for a dps in the pug world was going to be their experience first and then their rio. I would recruit people within my rio range but with experience (aka timed runs ) on par with mine. You see one can have high rio if you do targeted pushes on a dungeon that is ur lowest to bring it on par with the rest of your high keys. This results in high rio only 6-8 timed runs. That for me is not good enough, the guy that had such an rio/experience ratio, might very well be awesome but i dont know that in the pug world, i have to make a decision based on the facts that i have in front of me. On the +5-9 part of the R.io ladder i have over 30 timed runs, why would i want someone to dps for me with 1/3 of the experience?

So applying this critirea, and having me and my friend tank being premade with in 2 weeks we boosted our R.io from ~750 to a little over 1000, having timed all dungeons in +13 and yesterday we managed to complete our first +14. Pug players within our R.io range and with experience on par with ours almost never fucked up and we rarely depleted keys and if we did was for 1-2min over timer.

So dear anti-R.io player, do you think it is unfair that you are not selected for a key? Have you done the work your self? Have you put in hours into the pug world? Have climbed the R.io ladder step by step? Or do you expect to join 900rio groups with 500rio or 1.1k groups with 900 rio?

[ellieg]

I hated rio in legion. I didn't understand it and just reminded me of gearscore back in wrath and just another tool used to deny me.

I like it now. I specifically target dungeons to slowly increase my rio score and gives me some goal to work for. Has been super useful for making groups as well. Especially with how prideful is, its important to get a tank that has multiple runs in your key range, and has timed your specific key or higher already. Makes the runs so much smoother.

It's obviously not perfect. I like to think of myself as a good player, as im sure a lot of ppl do, and it can be frustrating having to work at the score instead of jumping right into 15s when your ilvl is high enough. Ill take it for what it is tho.

[Sunderella]

I have like 30 5-9 timed runs and 20 2-4 timed. Sitting at 525 rio and 203ilvl. Getting declined for anything over 6 for hours even by people with less RIO score and runs. I have been invited to a couple of 7 and 8 over the last three weeks probably because it was late at night and there wasn't many ppl to choose from XD

While I think that having a tool to help you select people is good, I don't think that rio is that great at gauging player performance. Blizzard should come up with something that rates players based on real facts like interrupts, dispels, deaths, mob aggro, damage taken etc.

[thunderdragon2]

imo rio means nothing you can be carried by a group of 4 guildies to say 700-800 not know how to deal wiht any of the affixes and then ruin other peoples grps iv'e played every iteration of m+ since it came out and its never been as bad as it is now.

[Wuusah]

just another tool used to deny me.

that's what it all boils down to in the end. People who hate rio don't want others to see what a scrub they are. It always comes in combination with the old "elo hell" excuse where they would have such a better rating if it wasn't for their teammates fucking it up for them. And the "vicious circle" excuse where you can't get a better rating if people don't invite you but people don't invite you because you don't have a good rating.

But here is the simple hard to swallow truth:

1. ELO hell doesn't exist. You are the only constant in every single run. Better yourself and your runs will be better on average.

2. That vicious circle doesn't exist because you also have a key and can start a group. It takes too long for a tank or heal to join? Tough shit, maybe play tank or heal. Or socialize with the tanks and heals you are running with. Maybe if you don't abuse them and instead put them on your friends list, they'd be willing to do a run with you again.

[FakePizza]

raider.io is fine i guess but people of course use it wrong sometimes,they expect higher io than needed for m+.They require higher io than them self,kek...insane ilvl also sometimes they want.

[ShadowofVashj]

I want to start by saying that given this is a hot topic humor me and read what i want to say before you reply please. Thank you.

Now the main topic. Ever since R.IO became a thing, it is noticed that Pugs have high requirements and expectetions from the people that sign in their groups.
This results in many players mostly on the casual spectrum to feel frustrated and find R.IO unjust, unrealistic, a tool that feeds elitism and so on.

I started pushing keys in BfA mostly and that was after Season 2 where player power was already high and pushing into 15s - while it required effort - was a lot easier to achieve than the starting season of an expansion like we are now, where power is still somewhat limited and you can see that difficulty scaling up from +13 to a +14...

My big question to the forum is, are you really annoyed by R.IO or is this just a reaction to being declined in keys?

This season i had to work my ass off in m+ because most of my premade group plays on different hours than me. That meant for me that i had to work my way up the ladder. I main a Resto Shaman and when the season started i did some low keys with the guild to prepare for raiding and that gave me about 500 r.io. The guild mates werent really interested in pushing at the time, so this meant that i had to pug keys. As a Resto Shaman ( which i believe is a ''meta'' class for this season or flavor of the month ) i was signing up in over 30 keys to get invited eventually into one and thats on the 500-600 r.io scale.

Eventually after lots of pugging and lots of failing, i managed to climp on the ~750 r.io scale, that meant most of the dgs was at +8 and +9. At that point a friend of similar to mine r.io decides to join me ( Guardian Druid ) so we finally start pushing 10s and above. So we start making our own groups, doing our research on proper pulling paths, where he might need most of my healing and etc, basically making sure that the tank/healer part of a pug is completely covered with minimal room for error - cause there is always room for error in m+ no matter how good you are. This meant that we had to pug 3 dps.

My critirea for a dps in the pug world was going to be their experience first and then their rio. I would recruit people within my rio range but with experience (aka timed runs ) on par with mine. You see one can have high rio if you do targeted pushes on a dungeon that is ur lowest to bring it on par with the rest of your high keys. This results in high rio only 6-8 timed runs. That for me is not good enough, the guy that had such an rio/experience ratio, might very well be awesome but i dont know that in the pug world, i have to make a decision based on the facts that i have in front of me. On the +5-9 part of the R.io ladder i have over 30 timed runs, why would i want someone to dps for me with 1/3 of the experience?

So applying this critirea, and having me and my friend tank being premade with in 2 weeks we boosted our R.io from ~750 to a little over 1000, having timed all dungeons in +13 and yesterday we managed to complete our first +14. Pug players within our R.io range and with experience on par with ours almost never fucked up and we rarely depleted keys and if we did was for 1-2min over timer.

So dear anti-R.io player, do you think it is unfair that you are not selected for a key? Have you done the work your self? Have you put in hours into the pug world? Have climbed the R.io ladder step by step? Or do you expect to join 900rio groups with 500rio or 1.1k groups with 900 rio?

You've spelled out a very straightforward, and fair way to do things. You put in the work and are reaping the successes of your preparation. Also keep in mind, with the essence and nature of M+, how "casual" is it exactly? If you want to complete high keys in a timed fashion, people need to interrupt, watch void circles, know paths, know their own classes' tool boxes. You're not slapdicking your way to timed high keys.

And of course, for all of those who complain about being rejected key after key after key (and trying to queue as dps can be hard, we all know that even my 210 dk has a hard time getting into +7s or +8s sometimes), there's always an easy solution; run a M0, get your own key, and build your own group to push.

[Toybox]

imo rio means nothing you can be carried by a group of 4 guildies to say 700-800 not know how to deal wiht any of the affixes and then ruin other peoples grps iv'e played every iteration of m+ since it came out and its never been as bad as it is now.

This is a common argument & I've never bought it. Sure a few people might do this, but on average, a 1300 player will be more genuinely experienced than a 1000 player, who in turn would be more experienced than a 700 player, etc.

Raider.io is fine. People can set any requirements they want for their groups. If the coin was flipped & the people complaining about not getting invites were the ones with gear & a high key they'd not be taking inexperienced randoms either. Play with a good guild/friends & it all becomes a non-issue.

[Nargrom]

You've spelled out a very straightforward, and fair way to do things. You put in the work and are reaping the successes of your preparation. Also keep in mind, with the essence and nature of M+, how "casual" is it exactly? If you want to complete high keys in a timed fashion, people need to interrupt, watch void circles, know paths, know their own classes' tool boxes. You're not slapdicking your way to timed high keys.

And of course, for all of those who complain about being rejected key after key after key (and trying to queue as dps can be hard, we all know that even my 210 dk has a hard time getting into +7s or +8s sometimes), there's always an easy solution; run a M0, get your own key, and build your own group to push.

My main goal for every m+ season is the keystone master achie. If i happen to push a bit more after thats fine but not as important to me as is getting this achie. How casual m+ is subjective i believe and it has to do with your goals. In my opinion if you the guy that does m+ for shits and giggles ( WHICH IS TOTALLY FINE BTW) you dont belong in the m+ pug world. Majority of groups above the +6 marker as looking to push and build their r.io , be it for gear/achies/pride whatever. If want to have laughs and fuck around make your own groups with friends or guildies and if you decide to do so in the pug world, say so in description. Dont waste people's time.

[erifwodahs]

I have like 30 5-9 timed runs and 20 2-4 timed. Sitting at 525 rio and 203ilvl. Getting declined for anything over 6 for hours even by people with less RIO score and runs. I have been invited to a couple of 7 and 8 over the last three weeks probably because it was late at night and there wasn't many ppl to choose from XD

While I think that having a tool to help you select people is good, I don't think that rio is that great at gauging player performance. Blizzard should come up with something that rates players based on real facts like interrupts, dispels, deaths, mob aggro, damage taken etc.

Rio gives rating for experience in timing keys. It's nothing more or nothing less. You can see how many timed runs in which bracket, what's the maximum key for the dungeon you are doing. No assumptions on very fluid things.
What you are suggesting would only work in a sense that "parsing" is working - comparing each player against their spec. and that would make sure that even less players are getting invited into the runs because no one wants blue parsers in push keys. Plus that rating would be very infair in some situations depending on a comp you are running which would make it too specific to compare. How can you rate interrupts of someone who is in the group with a prot paladin? Which would reduce your global ranking.
What the rio is showing is only that this player was in a group which managed to time that many keys. It does not say if a player was good, bad, carry or carried, it's up to you to check.

[Nargrom]

imo rio means nothing you can be carried by a group of 4 guildies to say 700-800 not know how to deal wiht any of the affixes and then ruin other peoples grps iv'e played every iteration of m+ since it came out and its never been as bad as it is now.

A group of guildies wont carrie you forever tho, if you get carried chances are that those guildies eventually will want to push for higher keys and you will be left behind until they start farming the part of the ladder they are at and they start carrying you again. Which the experience part of R.io kicks in, if you are carried at best you will have 8-10 timed keys with in the bracket you are getting carried, personally ill see that and prob wont inv you cause my experience in timed keys vastly outnumbers yours.

Ofc i dont say my system isnt flawed, there will be apples in my selection of dpsers. But i believe the way a select people greatly reduces the chances of picking a bad apple.

[Jimmyw]

I like it a lot personally. I had to solo work my score up . first get all dungeons done in time on a 6-7, then do the same to 8-9. Now my goal is to get them all to 13 timed and build my score. I am currently 990 rio and it gives me a reason to keep going into m+ despite the loot being very scarce. I like the challenge and I like increasing my m+ score. feels good to refresh it and see the score go up. I plan on breaking 1k tonight and I am very much looking forward to it.

[thunderdragon2]

A group of guildies wont carrie you forever tho, if you get carried chances are that those guildies eventually will want to push for higher keys and you will be left behind until they start farming the part of the ladder they are at and they start carrying you again. Which the experience part of R.io kicks in, if you are carried at best you will have 8-10 timed keys with in the bracket you are getting carried, personally ill see that and prob wont inv you cause my experience in timed keys vastly outnumbers yours.

Ofc i dont say my system isnt flawed, there will be apples in my selection of dpsers. But i believe the way a select people greatly reduces the chances of picking a bad apple.

my point was that rio is flawed because i just shows score and dungeon best nothing else you can be carried to your score, theres alot more to m+ that just timeing it

[Nargrom]

my point was that rio is flawed because i just shows score and dungeon best nothing else you can be carried to your score, theres alot more to m+ that just timeing it

R.io also shows (in-game btw) how many timed runs you have within a certain bracket along side your highest key and score and if you go the website you can see the failed runs as well, build of the character you are inspecting, covenant, conduits, soulbinds, ilvl, legos, gear, talents.

[Greyvax]

Obligatory "Don't like it, then start your own group or level your own key"

Stuff like r.io is necessary, because in order to be successful in higher keys, you need people who know how to play mythic+. This means, interrupts, mob movement, boss mechanics (especially on tyrannical), and how to play their class well (i.e. using all the spells in your spellbook).

[Creedo]

I hated rio in legion. I didn't understand it and just reminded me of gearscore back in wrath and just another tool used to deny me.

I like it now. I specifically target dungeons to slowly increase my rio score and gives me some goal to work for. Has been super useful for making groups as well. Especially with how prideful is, its important to get a tank that has multiple runs in your key range, and has timed your specific key or higher already. Makes the runs so much smoother.

It's obviously not perfect. I like to think of myself as a good player, as im sure a lot of ppl do, and it can be frustrating having to work at the score instead of jumping right into 15s when your ilvl is high enough. Ill take it for what it is tho.

I 100% agree with you and had the same feeling in Legion just not liking it (same to GS in Wrath, hated it and just avoided it). However, now I do like it and it gives me something to work for in getting my score up (like Arena or Raid boss kills or AOTC). The system is not perfect, but Blizzard isn't going to make one. This works for vetting the right people for your comp, so there are times I get denied (that is ok, you can always make your own group for your comp).

[czarek]

TBH its valuable on myth 10+ pugs or hc/myth raids. Except this ppl should not watch there. Normal raids and low m+ are casual modes no need to check RAIDERIO score. Who need 1k rio for normal raid. This is dumb xD

[thunderdragon2]

R.io also shows (in-game btw) how many timed runs you have within a certain bracket along side your highest key and score and if you go the website you can see the failed runs as well, build of the character you are inspecting, covenant, conduits, soulbinds, ilvl, legos, gear, talents.

didnt know those were possible, most dont check the site they just use the addon to determine wither ur good enough for them tho

[ShadowofVashj]

TBH its valuable on myth 10+ pugs or hc/myth raids. Except this ppl should not watch there. Normal raids and low m+ are casual modes no need to check RAIDERIO score. Who need 1k rio for normal raid. This is dumb xD

Right and that is the other side and extreme of misuing a tool like this; putting inappropriate requirements for content. You shouldn't need an ilvl or score absurdly above the designated lvl of the content.

[thunderdragon2]

Obligatory "Don't like it, then start your own group or level your own key"

Stuff like r.io is necessary, because in order to be successful in higher keys, you need people who know how to play mythic+. This means, interrupts, mob movement, boss mechanics (especially on tyrannical), and how to play their class well (i.e. using all the spells in your spellbook).

ive been doing that and it sill doesn't help as you have ppl that are qualified for the key as far as rio is concerned but dono mechanics, afixes or use their utility to help the group