Solution for M+ leavers....

[ayako]

I've been in groups with that kind of note or even no leaver in the title and had someone leave. One bad pull and someone leaves.

I see "completion" groups all the time, and if I don't feel like it, I simply don't join those. It's a good system if everyone actually only joins groups that are labeled w/ the same intention they have going into it.

[thunderdragon2]

I've been in groups with that kind of note or even no leaver in the title and had someone leave. One bad pull and someone leaves.

when i want to do a key for the vault on a alt my listing looks like this

mythic keystone dungeon dungeon X

+X READ DISCRIPTION

THIS IS FOR THE WEEKLY VAULT IT MAY NOT BE IN TIME SO IF YOUR GOING TMLEAVE MID WAY DONT BOTHER SIGNING

with this they know what they are getting into i still try to assemble the best grp possible to time it but if things do go wrong then they know why will still get it completed and its no ones fault,

ive yet to have any1 leave my alts key with that as my description, the caps are there so people will actually read it

[OokOok]

Sometimes people have to leave for real life issues, you can't punsih one and not the other. Or what if someone's internet goes out or they d/c and when they get back the groups left, should they get punished too for a shitty ISP?

Shit happens.

I do agree, that people who should get punished are the baby rage tanks who leave when you tell them how to play cause they clearly don't as tanks baby raging quitting seems to be the biggest one, or any player leaving cause they don't like being critiqued and players who leave after making a mistake
The issue is determining the above from the bottom. Last thing we need is another silly kick system

They should just add in a NPC feature like every other MMO has by now. OR base M+ like raids, if you have 4 then the scale diff goes down. Tank leaves? summon a tank NPC, they're actually quite good just ask FFXI.

[Rinaul]

This expac has left me demotivated to stay in groups of they're quickly going to crap. Especially with the highly diminished rate of drops. I've more or less stopped running them because of this. Loot used to be a reason to stick it out for me but now... Eh might not be worth it if you're not going to at least 2 it.

[Jinpachi]

Sure dude, creating hostage keys where people get abused or forced to take punishment for AFK ppl who don't leave. Any leaver would just go AFK and jump around every few minutes until someone leaves. Had plenty of healers who just told everyone to suck it and went afk/left.

high level M+ isn't for PUGS. Get a dedicated squad or deal with it.

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Not even last week I was in a PUG that a tank, healer, and dps friend started and when an item dropped on the first boss the tank told the other dps that he better give him the drop or he will kick him from group. The player gave him the item and then still got kicked. They started laughing at him as we continued. I told the tank he's a toxic player and he went on a rant on how I am a bitch and kicked me because he had 2 other friend's who can vote kick with him.... The player-base is way too toxic to have player written reviews. I was stuck with a debuff for no reason because 3 immature toxic players have all the control. Imagine what they would have written in my player review.

Get a dedicated team and you wont have this to worry about.

[erifwodahs]

high level M+ isn't for PUGS. Get a dedicated squad or deal with it.

It's worse to implement something wrong than having nothing in place.

[SoloMmofriendly]

I know people do it, I've seen it myself. It's just dumb. All I can guess is people don't realise it doesn't negatively impact their score.

It's one thing if you fail the timer and it is still going to be a longass time still before you finish (especially now that not timing means just one piece of loot), but leaving near the end when it's clear you won't make it but can still finish quickly is silly.

Blizzard didn't really help this by nerfing loot. Disincentives everyone from finishing keys.

As someone that would leave retardedly over time keys at end boss i can tell you exactly why people do it.

In the better groups if you check rio having a bad deplete on your record can skew a persons opinion of you, you can say it wont matter, and what does it matter anyway but ultimately it does matter.

Have you ever checked rio when forming a party? if a tank has a 30min deplete for a key you want to do, what do you instantly think? hes to blame

Though an extreme example you get the point, same goes for everyone else, healers too, 30min key over time on a healers record you automatically think "healer couldnt handle"

Ever looked a dps rio and seen multiple depletes? what does that tell you?

Now after ALL of this you have the following very important snippet of information:

Loot is rewarded as 2 items for in time 1 item for out of time, if 1 player is responsible for deplete there is a 100% chance that the player that didnt deserve it gets the loot.

A lot of people including me would rather just leave than give them there undeserved loot after they waste everyones time by not being good enough to begin with.

[Xath]

I honestly think outright banning systems like r.io is the way to go if you want to fix this.

The PuG community will be less toxic.
The serious Mythic+ players (established groups) won't be affected.

I know that r.io feeds off of data made freely available by Blizzard, and there probably is a way to block its use.

That's a great way to permanently kill the pug community I agree.

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All these solutions are fucking terrible. No one wants another arbitrary metric to impact on their ability to be invited to group any more than they currently are.

The only way to fix it is to improve the rewards for completing a M+ key. Right now the rewards are underwhelming, so I don't blame anyone who doesn't want to commit their valuable time on a fruitless endeavour once the key turns to shit

It's almost as if valor points or badges would solve this issue......

This is very accurate right now if you fail the timer you get one piece of loot for the entire group. Given only a 20% chance at a single piece of gear it isn't surprising to me that people leave stuff that won't be timed.

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Look, I agree that the nerf to the loot in m+ was pretty shitty. It absolutely does disincentivise finishing depleted keys, which is a bad thing in general but especially for people who rely on PuGs. Nerfing both the number of drops and the ilvl of drops was overkill and at least one of them should be walked back.

However, I do still feel that M+ is still the best way to gear up. Unlike raids, the content is spammable and you can keep running keys until you've got a full set of decent gear which you can't do with any other pve content. Also, even if you're a more casual or "average" skill level player that can't push past ten, you can still get one 220 a week in your vault, which will likely be an upgrade even if you're a heroic raider. I'm sure many mythic raiders are also running a 14 each week right now for the vault rewards to supplement their raid drops (of course, they are also probably pvping for those rewards too).

Don't forget raids had their drops nerfed too, and it's not uncommon to go multiple weeks without getting a single drop. Both of my main characters are only wearing a few actual drops from raiding content; one has three, one has two, not counting vault rewards, despite having been raiding since the week it opened. The rest of my gear is all m+ shit, even somehow on the character I only do like one low M+ a week on just because I still haven't seen better in the raid.

As far as "there is no point to running high keys unless you are going for time"... well, that is true, but that has also always been true. Loot ilvl has always beeen capped, making running past a certain key level unnecessary unless you're doing it for the fun of it.


How? That isn't something available via the API. People would have to voluntarily log their runs publicly for this, and they probably aren't going to do that if it's going to penalise them if they don't finish. (or they might also opt not to for other reasons as well)


So what do you do, when this hypothetical functionality is implemented, if the person who would have left wants to avoid a penalty so instead of just dropping group, they decide to troll the party or contribute nothing in order to get someone else to leave first?

What do you do in this scenario if you've started a 15 key, and you discover that the rest of the group is so bad that you know they will be incapable of beating an upcoming boss?

What do you do in this scenario if you find out your healer or tank is playing on a potato computer or with potato internet, causing repeated wipes and guaranteeing that the key will be either unfinishable or take a massive amount of extra time?

None of these are crazy rare scenarios.

RBGs are a far better way to gear up right now.

[Evilmoo]

1st - remove keystones outright, add ability to manually increase or decrease dungeon level from 0 to 30.
2nd implement an official scoreboard, assign certain weights to affixes and allocate points according to them. Ban R.io or similar arbitrary 3rd party service.
3rd assign breakpoints according to abovementioned scoreboard, just like in PVP, allocate end-of-the-season achievements according to these breakpoints, titles, mounts, cosmetics.

[Alroxas]

I honestly think outright banning systems like r.io is the way to go if you want to fix this.

The PuG community will be less toxic.
The serious Mythic+ players (established groups) won't be affected.

I know that r.io feeds off of data made freely available by Blizzard, and there probably is a way to block its use.

Hilariously wrong... Do we not remember Gearscore? Or Achievement-linking? You remove r.io and the community will just use another metric to quickly judge players and continue to be toxic.

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There should be a "safe word" if the group wants to abandon the key, like "smebjulak". If everyone types it (or 4 out of 5 whatever), you won't get minus points.

Horrible idea because this can promote degenerate gameplay. Oh man we f'd up the timer, better reset. Oh man we f'd up the first boss, better reset. Oh man we f'd up the first pull, better reset.

[Ragnarohk]

Hilariously wrong... Do we not remember Gearscore? Or Achievement-linking? You remove r.io and the community will just use another metric to quickly judge players and continue to be toxic.

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Horrible idea because this can promote degenerate gameplay. Oh man we f'd up the timer, better reset. Oh man we f'd up the first boss, better reset. Oh man we f'd up the first pull, better reset.

If anything, I think Gearscore/ilvl is less toxic than rio.

[Alroxas]

Also, you can leave the group after the timer is up, no worries.

So basically players can hold the rest of the group hostage for up to the dungeon timer. Unless the rest of the group agrees to use the "safe word".

There are soo many solutions, but people are getting more blind because Blizzard is just incompetent.

Highly doubt that Blizzard is incompetent. If anything the problem stems from no good solutions exists where there is abuse is minimal.

A vote system is bad because it can be abused to cause degenerate gameplay.
A time out system is bad because it functionally hold players hostage until the timer is up.
A leave system is bad because it just causes a player to functionally go "afk" while not being afk.

To be provide an abuse-free system, you would need so many checks and systems in place that the better solution is the one that Ion himself stated in interviews: Only do M+ with people you know so that there are social consequences if they f'd up. PuG removes social consequences so players can be douchebags if they wanted to. Granted most players aren't douchebags but you'll risk it if you PuG and that's fine by most of the community.

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because i still have under 800 score i wont get taken to 11s and 12s so i'm stuck in the 8-10s with people that don't know what they are doing till i luck out and time a key i need to increase my score

So at the very least, you've done a +10 or have access to a +8 to +10 key. So if you need to increase your score, why don't you just form your own group and run your own key? And as you're doing that, keep track of the players you invite. Eventually, you'll have a pool of good players that you can check in with whenever you want to do a run. And prior experience with them proves they are good player regardless of r.io score.

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For the leavers issue: It could be fixed easily, if the timer is like maybe +5 mins into, and then people leave before end boss kill and you have to quit, the stone wont get downgraded. Problem solved.

And now you've created the problem where players will evaluate how likely they can finish under time at that +5 minute mark. If it can't be done, then reset (after all no downgrade in key).

Except replace "finish under time" to finish under +2 time. Now replace finish under +2 time to finish under +3 time.

Now replace, "it can't be done" to well we messed up the first trash pull so let's just wait 5 minutes and reset until we reach "perfection" with that first pull.

[Eapoe]

I honestly rather waste 30mins teaching somebody a mechanic than 30minutes because an elitist decided to jump ship mid-way through the instance because of a wipe.

Except you don’t have 30 minutes to teach someone a mechanic they should have picked up long before stepping foot into a high key.
Like, what the hell is this kind of statement?

[thunderdragon2]

So at the very least, you've done a +10 or have access to a +8 to +10 key. So if you need to increase your score, why don't you just form your own group and run your own key? And as you're doing that, keep track of the players you invite. Eventually, you'll have a pool of good players that you can check in with whenever you want to do a run. And prior experience with them proves they are good player regardless of r.io score.

oh believe me I've tried i invite people with similar sore and experience dungeon score and overall score wise give or take but still things go badly wrong, got my new guild to help with keys now i'm at 900, haven't left a key yet due to the vault but still it's very hard to increase your score atm in the 8-10 bracket via pugging

[froschhure]

Adjusting SL to be on pair with Legion/Bfa :

Not in time runs have to give as much loot as untimed runs. (<-Prevents leaver in your keys)

Bonusroll need to get back into the game <-(Many people only get loot through this because of personal loot)

Titanforging needs to get back <-(delivering treatmill endgame loot loop content is a powerful mechanic)

[thunderdragon2]

Except you don’t have 30 minutes to teach someone a mechanic they should have picked up long before stepping foot into a high key.
Like, what the hell is this kind of statement?

i agree with this by the time you get into a 8 you should already know where to put the big brown circle on echelon in halls of atonement for example

[Cerejobastos]

Something like R.io but that tracks individual performance (dps, interrupts, uptime, etc) and scores it in comparison to other people of the same class (amd spec maybe).
The frequency that someone leaves a dungeon before it is finished.
How many people have that person blocked too maybe?
Some addon to give a rating or some kind of report that shows up after the dungeon is completed or when someone leaves/disc/...

[chiddie]

What about simply starting to remove the timer for a while and see what happens?

Because to me it seems that 99% of issue are related to the timer. Maybe the solution is easier than it seems, also because timing a high level key does not actually give you something tangible apart from the “oh wow now I can /flex in Orgrimmar” achievement.

[Aurora]

What about simply starting to remove the timer for a while and see what happens?

Because to me it seems that 99% of issue are related to the timer. Maybe the solution is easier than it seems, also because timing a high level key does not actually give you something tangible apart from the “oh wow now I can /flex in Orgrimmar” achievement.

I've always advocated for this, the old challenge modes were a niche interest for cosmetic rewards that the general population mostly ignored and never felt compelled to participate in. Adding loot started the problem since it mixed two different audiences into the same content but with conflicting goals.

[Ragnarohk]

Except you don’t have 30 minutes to teach someone a mechanic they should have picked up long before stepping foot into a high key.
Like, what the hell is this kind of statement?

I meant.

I rather "waste" my time helping somebody than waste my time by somebody randomly leaving a dungeon.

I don't get angry if we din't time a key because a DPS couldn't do XYZ and we wiped too many times. That's fine.

I do get angry when somebody just drops group after a wipe or when we won't make timer.

The mentality nowadays is to jump ship if a run doesn't go perfect or if you won't make the timer is BS.

Yesterday I had a DPS drop group after 2nd pull because he didn't "like" the way the tank did the pull. We didn't even wipe