The mawsworn rivals the legion now?

[mysticx]

The problem with that is that the engine simply can't handle it in either case. We never saw those supposed numbers for the Legion, either.

"Show, don't tell" is generally good advice, but it isn't much use when showing isn't an option.

On Argus, Blizz did a nice job of implying scale with the skybox, showing big structures in the distance, they even did so in Oribos, showing a vast number of gates (presumably) leading to other afterlives, but the skybox of the maw is just like the zone itself: a grey, featureless waste of potential.

[huth]

On Argus, Blizz did a nice job of implying scale with the skybox, showing big structures in the distance, they even did so in Oribos, showing a vast number of gates (presumably) leading to other afterlives, but the skybox of the maw is just like the zone itself: a grey, featureless waste of potential.

The Maw is a gray, featureless waste. The problem is that it also clearly isn't following euclidean geometry, especially in Torghast, so that isn't terribly meaningfull. But it also makes it hard to show the things you ask for.

For that matter, the Legion was never shown to have the numbers lore suggests, either. We are only told that there are more demons than we see. That we've seen more of the Legion mostly has to do with the fact that we've seen it for far longer than the Jailer's forces.

[Raven]

I have to agree, When you think of the burning legion you think endless armies, that ruin planets. When you think of Sarageas you think Fallen titan who can cleave planets in two.
When I think of the Mawsworn... I think of black Kyrian, when I think of the Jailer I think of a big guy who cant see me standing 10 feet away from him, because I hide around a corner.

I feel like the Jailer is just not a good villain, Granted it might change in 9.1 but as it stands hes... Underwhelming. At least when I did Suramar 2.0 you got to see Sira Develop and see him as a Villain the jailer is just... there?

Or him as a manipulator knew we were there and let us hear it becouse it somehow fits he´s plan.

[DeltrusDisc]

Yes I am late to the party

So a quote from Baine says «the jailers armies rival that of the burning legion and their numbers are only increasing» or something like that

Meh

We need better writing not a dick measuring contest between villains. Remember when they said the Iron horde would be the greatest threat weve ever faced but then we basically destroyed them before 6.1?

So there are billions of mawsworn in the mw, where exactly are they? Cant they leave its just the jailer thats trapped? If so is it a show dont tell situation where they are assaulting Azeroth while were in the shadowlands or did we send them packing in the pre-patch?

Atleast the legion was a little believable with all the diversity. Space ships, war machines, floating fortresses, 100 different breeds of demons

Maybe its too early to tell, but what the fuck is the jailer waiting on, if he has billions of flying knights that can kidnapp vitally important characters I dont see how we are still alive

Granted the jailer also controls the scourge but still, is that really enough to rival the legion?

Not just anyone.
Tyrande fought them off.

And we clearly can fight them off, on their own turf, in the Maw, when they try picking us up and dropping us.

[Myradin]

On Argus, Blizz did a nice job of implying scale with the skybox, showing big structures in the distance, they even did so in Oribos, showing a vast number of gates (presumably) leading to other afterlives, but the skybox of the maw is just like the zone itself: a grey, featureless waste of potential.

One shouldn't take characters words as the word of god anyway.

But the maw has literally all souls from across the universe and alternate timelines flowing into it.

Also most the legions 'world destroying' is said not really shown either. We have a few clumps of rock to show the other worlds they've destroyed, and their capitol world was an utter dump.

[Candy Cough]

The problem with that is that the engine simply can't handle it in either case. We never saw those supposed numbers for the Legion, either.

"Show, don't tell" is generally good advice, but it isn't much use when showing isn't an option.

I mean they did a pretty good job of showing the scale of how massive the scourge is

Have you tried leveling in Icecrown without a flying mount? Nigh impossible since there is undead absolutely everywhere

- - - Updated - - -

One shouldn't take characters words as the word of god anyway.

But the maw has literally all souls from across the universe and alternate timelines flowing into it.

Also most the legions 'world destroying' is said not really shown either. We have a few clumps of rock to show the other worlds they've destroyed, and their capitol world was an utter dump.

Youre giving the writers at blizzard too much credit here, if Baine said it its pretty safe to assume thats what it is

Until we defeat them very easily and they’ll say on twitter «lmao gotcha Baine was wrong»

[TheFirstOnes]

And? Both Lich Kings were both outright shown, as well as stated, to be holding back and controlling the scourge.

As such, they weren't really his Avatar. Bolvar states in the intro sequence that he felt the consciousness and that it took a herculean effort to keep it at bay, but he never gave in.

So, still, they've done a LOT more telling than showing. That doesn't mean it's not accurate, it just doesn't feel right. Comparing the Legion which we were shown, several times just how powerful and terrifying it is, to the Jailers forces which are essentially contained entirely within the Maw right now and we mop the floor with them on a daily basis...it rings hollow.

"And? Both Lich Kings were both outright shown, as well as stated, to be holding back and controlling the scourge." The small piece of Arthas remaining was holding back the scourge, but the dude was still in full command of them, was causing mayhem throughout the planet, and even planned on facing the Legion, as well as the Void, after his victory against the forces of Azeroth, which is literally what the Jailer wants. Bolvar was different, as his whole purpose as the LK was to hold back the darkness that took hold over Arthas.

"Comparing the Legion which we were shown, several times just how powerful and terrifying it is" Not 100% true. Outside of the Broken Shore, and the 7.3 events, most of what was shown of the Legion is based off the aftermath of what happened, as the events that were being told of their power (Such as the Titan Pantheons demise, the infinite timeline controlling shit, the WoTA, etc) is practically expressed in books. Sure, we saw glimpses of the past, such as some WoTA stuff, and we do have the Argus and Sargeras feats in the Antorus Raid, but that's about it. The Sunwell was kinda weak (It's just the Legion taking hold of the Blood Elves' source of power to summon KJ, which isn't impressive), WC3 had Archimonde and the Scourge plot (Which the scourge stuff was a plot of the Jailer, not the Legion, as we figure out in SL), and TBC also had Outland...which well...was an aftermath of what was told in Books + The RTS games, and most of that wasn't even the Legion's doing (Outside of the blood of Mannoroth + some other sideline shit).

"As such, they weren't really his Avatar." What do you mean? The LK is literally stated to be the mortal vessel of the Jailer's power brought into reality. Sure, Bolvar held back shit, and there was a slight bit of Arthas remaining, but the overall factor is that the Jailer was still housing command over the helm + Frostmourne. Hell, The Jailer legit called Bolvar a "failure" of a herald for the Jailer's coming during the Torghast questline.

"You were to herald my coming. Instead, you defied me" It's basically like the Avatar of Sargeras in a way (Moreso the potential one where Sargeras was trying to use Illidan's body as his own).

[Razion]

The Legion can make more demons the old fashioned way or by corruption, whereas Mawsworn still rely on them killing the living and escorting them to the maw, or letting agents of Bastion autopilot and do it, latter of which requires Arbiter to be offline. Maw can kind of corrupt beings like Forsworn but there's a lot more resistence there and Maldraxxus due to their nature, whereas forces like Thros and Revendreth seemed to have fallen easier. The Legion's corruption internally I consider more absolute when it does happen - like when pumped with too much fel blood from a Pit Lord for example. Meanwhile even agents like Uther who fell still have second thoughts and have the agency to rebel. I think maybe Death is weaker in this way. In terms of numbers I think Death is still potentially way higher so ultimately it should be a more threatening force... but I guess that means little if Fel corrupts better and can take those forces for itself - it's not like demons would be raised by Mawsworn and even if they were it would require to s of breaking for normal Legion troops to go to Death. While death has all the time in the universe, the rate of Legion corruption can be instant and Death corruption by torture in the Tower is so very slow even against mortals. I think Death's numbers are actually a liability in a Jailer vs Sargeras conflict.

[Katchii]

"And? Both Lich Kings were both outright shown, as well as stated, to be holding back and controlling the scourge." The small piece of Arthas remaining was holding back the scourge, but the dude was still in full command of them, was causing mayhem throughout the planet, and even planned on facing the Legion, as well as the Void, after his victory against the forces of Azeroth, which is literally what the Jailer wants. Bolvar was different, as his whole purpose as the LK was to hold back the darkness that took hold over Arthas.

The scourge never threatened the planet. They were pretty much relegated to the Plaguelands and Northrend. He could have done SO much more damage, but didn't.

"Comparing the Legion which we were shown, several times just how powerful and terrifying it is" Not 100% true. Outside of the Broken Shore, and the 7.3 events, most of what was shown of the Legion is based off the aftermath of what happened, as the events that were being told of their power (Such as the Titan Pantheons demise, the infinite timeline controlling shit, the WoTA, etc) is practically expressed in books. Sure, we saw glimpses of the past, such as some WoTA stuff, and we do have the Argus and Sargeras feats in the Antorus Raid, but that's about it. The Sunwell was kinda weak (It's just the Legion taking hold of the Blood Elves' source of power to summon KJ, which isn't impressive), WC3 had Archimonde and the Scourge plot (Which the scourge stuff was a plot of the Jailer, not the Legion, as we figure out in SL), and TBC also had Outland...which well...was an aftermath of what was told in Books + The RTS games, and most of that wasn't even the Legion's doing (Outside of the blood of Mannoroth + some other sideline shit).

The Legion was shown all over Azeroth, in multiple zones, decimated Outland, was headed by Sargeras who was established to have destroyed countless worlds, and in Legion we were shown multiple worlds the Legion had inhabited, destroyed, taken over or otherwise affected, and also saw Argus firsthand.

The Legions power was showcased many, many times. We saw it first hand throughout the entirety of the game beginning in Vanilla all the way through Legion. All while it also had well and long established lore backing up what we were shown.

The Maw....not so much. We didn't even know it existed 6 months ago.

"As such, they weren't really his Avatar." What do you mean? The LK is literally stated to be the mortal vessel of the Jailer's power brought into reality. Sure, Bolvar held back shit, and there was a slight bit of Arthas remaining, but the overall factor is that the Jailer was still housing command over the helm + Frostmourne. Hell, The Jailer legit called Bolvar a "failure" of a herald for the Jailer's coming during the Torghast questline.

Avatar insinuates that they were acting on his behalf and doing his bidding. They did not do that. They more or less held the power in check, compared to what it could have been.

Just because that was the intended use and application of the Helm and Frostmourne doesn't mean that intent was fully realized.

Herald and Avatar are different things too. A Herald is empowered by and is given authority to speak on behalf of someone else, typically in cases to prepare for the coming of that someone else. An Avatar is the physical embodiment, usually an alternate vessel controlled directly, of someone else but more importantly takes direct commands. Given that Arthas and Bolvar were never directly controlled by the Jailer, and never willingly took commands from him, means they were never his Avatar. Failed herald, I'll accept as plausible, but not Avatar.

"You were to herald my coming. Instead, you defied me" It's basically like the Avatar of Sargeras in a way (Moreso the potential one where Sargeras was trying to use Illidan's body as his own).

See above.

[Matt0193]

I mean, it's about context. Baine was one of those abducted, like the others he probably spent time trying to escape and evade only for each time for them to overwhelm him in numbers. The last time they saw such numerous foes all coming from the same place was when we were assaulted by the Legion. Even BfA's enemies came in waves and were made up of numerous different types of enemy such as Naga, Slilithid, C'thraxxi, Mantid and Mogu, to name a few. In the Maw they're all fairly uniform, everything looks like it has the same "theme" much the Legion's forces were identifiable by the rampant Fel corruption.

[huth]

I mean they did a pretty good job of showing the scale of how massive the scourge is

Have you tried leveling in Icecrown without a flying mount? Nigh impossible since there is undead absolutely everywhere

And yet, there isn't a tenth of what lore says there should be. Not to mention that in lore, Icecrown is much, much bigger.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Baine might just be comparing them to the Legion forces that attacked Azeroth. I don't know how he could possibly tell from a few glances around the Maw that the Jailer's army is bigger than the cosmos-wide army of the Legion.