The Brexit aftermath thread

[LeGin Tufnel]

I disagree. Obviously there might be cases where key workers are so essential that we need to vaccinate them to keep society going in the short-run - especially if we don't have backups - such as emergency personnel.

However, the list of key workers in the uk includes lots of other occupations that are less essential. If the choice is between vaccinating the priests/government officials in charge of coviid/clerks at food-markets or the elderly I would vaccinate the elderly 100% - as they have severe risk dying.

Sure. It’s a complex debate.

OK - so we both agree health and social care workers should be prioritised (in the UK they weren’t - they were in the second group). Well, moving through the complete list of critical workers I’m struggling to pull out occupations that I think shouldn’t be there:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...onal-provision

As an atheist, I think religious officials are an obvious target aren’t they. However, that’s about it.

But the fact remains if society grinds to a halt because those critical workers are sick / their families are sick / etc, the capacity for that society to function is going to be more limited than if they are healthy.

I don’t know… it’s difficult. I’m talking about my parents’ generation. Obviously, I want them to be vaccinated. Equally, I know their own feelings on the subject are more in tune with mine. We share immediate relatives who work in healthcare. I'm sure many of us do.

This is OT so will stop now.

[Crispin]

Acting faster in comparison to who? I mean if we are comparing it to the UK than yes BUT the reason the EU was slower was because the EU wanted to test these vaccines more, because people were worried and governments were worried and governments are taking part of the responsibility from the Big Pharma companies because that was a requirement of them to fast track this procedure.

People need to understand that the UK government took a gamble and luckily for the UK citizens it worked out in their favour but it also could not have.

God forbid it didn't but with all the scepticisms surrounding vaccines, can you imagine the negative impact this gamble from the UK could have had for everyone if the vaccine had actual severe and bad side effects and not just these negative effects on the second dose that is being looked into? So i am pleased it turned out well but suddenly claiming the EU acted too slow and the UK acted correctly and showed good leadership, i mean like what? Did we all just forget the last few years of how they dealt with their Brexit and still continue to do?

The attention span of people in today's rapid news age is really short.

You're putting too much effort into my statement, that the EU could have acted faster. Israel definately showed the way, but it seems as if the EU did not use the summer "break" from covid, to prepare better for round 2, and everyone had the "vaccines arent coming for a looong time!", however done is done.

The UK is not an example to follow tho, Boris handled it like shit in 2020, and pushing the 2nd shot 3 months later than the first, which is unadviced by the producer, is stupid aswell. Apparently getting the 1st shot so they can claim "we've vaccinated 10 %!" while fact is that they've vaccinated about 500k people, and risc vasting several shots, because they go about it in a yolo manner.

But as I said, EU's size is also a weakness, that makes fast decision making difficult. When they try to, stupid shit like pulling article 16 on NI is suggested, and thankfully retracted. Our beef is with AZ and not the UK.


This race to first vaccine period, cannot be a reason to worsen our relationship to the UK. Sure they decided to brexit, but I really do hope that we'll settle this as partners, and not block the export of vaccines to the UK.

[Kronik85]

Sure. It’s a complex debate.

OK - so we both agree health and social care workers should be prioritised (in the UK they weren’t - they were in the second group). Well, moving through the complete list of critical workers I’m struggling to pull out occupations that I think shouldn’t be there:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...onal-provision

As an atheist, I think religious officials are an obvious target aren’t they. However, that’s about it.

But the fact remains if society grinds to a halt because those critical workers are sick / their families are sick / etc, the capacity for that society to function is going to be more limited than if they are healthy.

I don’t know… it’s difficult. I’m talking about my parents’ generation. Obviously, I want them to be vaccinated. Equally, I know their own feelings on the subject are more in tune with mine. We share immediate relatives who work in healthcare. I'm sure many of us do.

This is OT so will stop now.

I've been a key worker since the first lock down. I worked in a Dunelm Warehouse making sure people had the essential house furnishings required in a national emergency. This lock down my Brother In Laws fiance is a key worker who is absolutely required to work from an office working as a third party insurance salesman.

Very key, much essential. *Nods head*

Oh Mike Ashley selling bicycles too if you want something you can pull an article up about.

[Forogil]

Sure. It’s a complex debate.

OK - so we both agree health and social care workers should be prioritised (in the UK they weren’t - they were in the second group).

I don't. I deliberately wrote emergency personnel, not health care and social workers in general.
Prioritizing nursing home staff (etc) is a different issue - they are important to avoid them infecting the elderly, not because they are key workers.

When you dilute "key worker" too much it loses its meaning.

[sircaw]

There is no theft here. Unless the EU is raiding stocks already purchased or laying claim to them then this is not a matter of theft but a matter of supply and Astra Zeneca having to make a choice over which party to supply. It is going to piss of one of its customers either way but that's an issue for Astra Zeneca not the UK Gov.



You understand that I view lives being saved in the UK with as much weight as lives anywhere else in the world right? I don't value the lives of my fellow countrymen more than dirty foreigners and you get that watching Tories and right wing pundits crowing "nernernernerner we've got the vaccine" is fucking disgusting right?

This situation sucks, it's ugly but sadly inevitable, I only wish the politicians that represent me had some bloody decorum rather than trying to sell this as a win for Brexit when we could have approved the vaccine earlier than the rest of the EU even if we were still in it.

Also while I'm throwing shade I've been following this article 16 shit from the EU side and that's also shameful stuff from our EU counterparts. So GJ, now we are all covered in shit.

I agree i would like a lot of less developed countries to receive vaccinations as soon as possible, There are a lot of people in Africa that need this vaccine asap, saying that my father who is 75 years old just received his vaccination yesterday, the second dose he needs, will be administered somewhere in the next 3-12 weeks.

I wish we could vaccinate the entire world, i wish we had enough supply to throw around with gay abandon, but we don't. Our taxpayers paid for the vaccine and our government bought it early, we can not or should not be giving away our supplies until essential people and especially our older generation are vaccinated first.

Hopefully, in the near future, as we gain more control of this terrible virus, Britian will lead the way in supplying under developed countries with free Vaccines.

[Rockyreg]

The mental contortions on show here to even attempt to defend the EUs actions over the last week just shows you to be the myopic, eu-zealots that you are, despicable actually.

Have any of you sat and thought about this? if you are in a position (EU) where the availability of a single vaccine is enough to derail the rollout to its 450m citizens, then something has gone drastically, irredeemably wrong.

Around the time the UK was getting it's AZ supplies sorted, with I assume with a watertight contract, the French, Germans, Italians etc were also lining up a similar deal. The EU saw an opportunity to show to the world (and most importantly it's own member states) how vital it is to be in the EU, and show that it could capably handle something which is usually a nation competence, big mistake.

They then did nothing for three months until signing a materially unchanged contract, Moderna were also critical of the EU warning them that they were being too slow signing contracts, loose contracts with very woolly terms to boot. The UK also had issues with AZ, we were due 30m doses by last year, we are still behind schedule but because we signed quickly we were able to iron out these in time. The EU on the other hand, hasn't. And I suspect they knew this as EMA approval wasn't exactly being expedited.

The last week has been a total, and unmitigated disaster for the EU, you have done more to ensure the UK never rejoins the EU in this one week than the likes of Nigel Farage could ever do in his entire lifetime. But its much worse than that, reading the European press, and more importantly the comments sections has been very enlightening indeed. This episode will have far-reaching consequences for the EU, consequences I dare say nobody has even though about yet.

The optics alone are shocking. They are giving an absolute hammering to a private company who are trying to give the world a life-saving vaccine at no profit so we can all get out of this horrendous situation we find ourselves in. It is the equivalent of beating the shit out of a baker who agreed to provide free cakes and their own personal time to a Village Fundraising party but had a car accident on the way over.

VDL stated times the EU contract was not based on 'best reasonable efforts' or words to that effect. The AZ contract that the EU published (unredacted I might add) mentioned 'best efforts' a total of 15 times!

Finally, what they have also shown, is that they care little for Ireland, or peace in Ireland and that all along the NI Protocol is nothing more than a political football, to be wheeled out whenever they feel like it. The fact that the UK and Ireland were not even notified or consulted is shambolic, and VDL should resign, she probably won't, I mean its not like she got and election to worry about or anything.

Oh the big bad EU thought it would have all the vaccines it ever needed, it thought it just had to throw it's weight around to get what it wanted. Well guess what, the EU has shown to the world just how inept and toothless it really is.

[sircaw]

The mental contortions on show here to even attempt to defend the EUs actions over the last week just shows you to be the myopic, eu-zealots that you are, despicable actually.

Have any of you sat and thought about this? if you are in a position (EU) where the availability of a single vaccine is enough to derail the rollout to its 450m citizens, then something has gone drastically, irredeemably wrong.

Around the time the UK was getting it's AZ supplies sorted, with I assume with a watertight contract, the French, Germans, Italians etc were also lining up a similar deal. The EU saw an opportunity to show to the world (and most importantly it's own member states) how vital it is to be in the EU, and show that it could capably handle something which is usually a nation competence, big mistake.

They then did nothing for three months until signing a materially unchanged contract, Moderna were also critical of the EU warning them that they were being too slow signing contracts, loose contracts with very woolly terms to boot. The UK also had issues with AZ, we were due 30m doses by last year, we are still behind schedule but because we signed quickly we were able to iron out these in time. The EU on the other hand, hasn't. And I suspect they knew this as EMA approval wasn't exactly being expedited.

The last week has been a total, and unmitigated disaster for the EU, you have done more to ensure the UK never rejoins the EU in this one week than the likes of Nigel Farage could ever do in his entire lifetime. But its much worse than that, reading the European press, and more importantly the comments sections has been very enlightening indeed. This episode will have far-reaching consequences for the EU, consequences I dare say nobody has even though about yet.

The optics alone are shocking. They are giving an absolute hammering to a private company who are trying to give the world a life-saving vaccine at no profit so we can all get out of this horrendous situation we find ourselves in. It is the equivalent of beating the shit out of a baker who agreed to provide free cakes and their own personal time to a Village Fundraising party but had a car accident on the way over.

VDL stated times the EU contract was not based on 'best reasonable efforts' or words to that effect. The AZ contract that the EU published (unredacted I might add) mentioned 'best efforts' a total of 15 times!

Finally, what they have also shown, is that they care little for Ireland, or peace in Ireland and that all along the NI Protocol is nothing more than a political football, to be wheeled out whenever they feel like it. The fact that the UK and Ireland were not even notified or consulted is shambolic, and VDL should resign, she probably won't, I mean its not like she got and election to worry about or anything.

Oh the big bad EU thought it would have all the vaccines it ever needed, it thought it just had to throw it's weight around to get what it wanted. Well guess what, the EU has shown to the world just how inept and toothless it really is.

Great to see more people with a different perspective chirping in.

People in this thread always find it hard to criticize the Eu, even after this absolute colossal fuck up they have just made.

Just be aware, your views probably will not go down well, some people will probably try to insult you or criticise you for telling it how it is.

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Agree completely with Kronik

Vaccine nationalism at it's finest.

Well done, all.

But what do we expect with fucking Sircaw:



Go fuck yourself, you troll cunt.

Why the fuck hasn't this been infracted?

Does it really take me steaming in calling the guy a cunt to get us both infracted?

Jesus fucking christ.
[Infraction]

This is absolutely disgusting. how does someone only get away with a minor infraction like this?

[Huehuecoyotl]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-brexit-chaos

500 UK firms already looking at setting up part of their business in Holland. Because of Brexit. That's jobs, revenues, GDP, all heading over the channel to a new home.

Oops, sorry. I'm supposed to be positive about this, otherwise I'm "talking the country down" and "making things worse". So I'll do my best to be a bit more positive.

I'm positive this is a bad thing. I'm positive this is the fault of Brexit. I'm positive that the clueless idiots that voted for Brexit will try and claim that none of this is their fault.

There, I feel much better now. It's good to be positive.

[sircaw]

Just read this from Yahoo, one of the most staunch defenders of remain and the eu.

Brussels was determined to force AstraZeneca to its knees at the start of the week but by the end of it, it was the European Union which was left humiliated.

Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president, today faces calls to resign amid accusations of a “vaccine nationalism” and fierce criticism in her home country of Germany.

Mrs von der Leyen, who had taken personal charge of the AstraZeneca issue, badly botched the response to the pharmaceutical company’s failure to fulfil EU orders of jabs.

She had moved to impose a “vaccine border” on the island of Ireland as she stepped up threats to impose an export ban on jabs to Britain. At a stroke, she trashed the bloc’s reputation worldwide and sacrificed the moral high ground the Commission had taken over the Irish border during Brexit negotiations.

Her decision to trigger Article 16 of the Brexit treaty’s Northern Irish protocol achieved the once unimaginable feat of uniting an unimpressed Michel Barnier, Irish prime minister Micheál Martin and Boris Johnson against her.

Mrs von der Leyen ordered a U-turn late on Saturday and blamed the crisis on “an oversight” - but the damage was done. Brussels had spiralled out of control, turning its own member states against it and ignoring their instructions.

It should have been very different. How had Mrs von der Leyen managed to turn a week that should have been a crowning moment for her administration into such an unmitigated disaster?

Brussels had planned for the first AstraZeneca jabs to be rolled out across the bloc once the European Medicines Agency approved the vaccine on Friday.

The European Commission, which negotiated the supplies on behalf of the 27 member states, would use the delivery as a symbol of the benefits of EU unity.

The inconvenient fact that the EU’s vaccination rollout was lagging far behind Brexit Britain would soon be forgotten in a flood of up to 400 million jabs; enough to vaccinate about half of all EU citizens.

If they are criticizing the Eu, i mean damn, its really really bad.

[sircaw]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-brexit-chaos

500 UK firms already looking at setting up part of their business in Holland. Because of Brexit. That's jobs, revenues, GDP, all heading over the channel to a new home.

Oops, sorry. I'm supposed to be positive about this, otherwise I'm "talking the country down" and "making things worse". So I'll do my best to be a bit more positive.

I'm positive this is a bad thing. I'm positive this is the fault of Brexit. I'm positive that the clueless idiots that voted for Brexit will try and claim that none of this is their fault.

There, I feel much better now. It's good to be positive.

It shows your dishonesty once again. By putting in the phrase, ike i am meant to be positive about this.
I never asked you to bend the truth or lie, i asked you to be fair and report good things about Brexit too not just the negative ones, I already said there would be negatives to Brexit, can you not remember that.

Try and be honest, are you somehow butt hurt by my posts about how the Eu handled the vaccine program so poorly, is that why you're trying to manipulate what i am saying.

IT really sounds like you are being extremely petty when dealing with me.

I am now back to the Eu and its clossial fuck up, you should join me in condemning the way they acted.

[Rockyreg]

Great to see more people with a different perspective chirping in.

People in this thread always find it hard to criticize the Eu, even after this absolute colossal fuck up they have just made.

Just be aware, your views probably will not go down well, some people will probably try to insult you or criticise you for telling it how it is.

Oh I know exactly what its like here, I used to post a couple of years ago but found it very draining. You'd think they'd have the sense to ignore it until it has blown over but they have really outed themselves this week.

[sircaw]

This is still completely off-topic and nothing to do with Brexit. It belongs here.

Also, if you say you're done with a forum, do it. Don't be all talk and no action, it makes you look like a joke.

This quote makes it about Brexit

She had moved to impose a “vaccine border” on the island of Ireland as she stepped up threats to impose an export ban on jabs to Britain.

this goes against what was agreed.

I know you're doing your best to try and shut down this conversation, as you don't want to be put on the spot.

The Eu fucked up on this royalty, it's time you expect this.

If you would like to criticise the Eu like all the news channels, papers and countries are doing right now, please do so.

[sircaw]

Oh I know exactly what its like here, I used to post a couple of years ago but found it very draining. You'd think they'd have the sense to ignore it until it has blown over but they have really outed themselves this week.

It took them days to bring it up in this thread, i even said to myself i will give them 2 or 3 days before i post anything, hoping that one of them would be honest and fair and bring it up by themselves.

We know how that ended up lol.


The best thing about this thread i have people saying how straight and honest they are and they see things from a UK perspective haha.

This colossal fuck by the eu has nothing to do with the UK, its all on them, yet somehow people in this thread are still trying to blame the UK hahaha.

I even got an infraction for telling the god damn truth.

The mods just bow to number pressure, its been going on way to long in this thread.

I am glad you spoke up, i know there are others but yer, this place is full of Bullies.

[Rockyreg]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-brexit-chaos

500 UK firms already looking at setting up part of their business in Holland. Because of Brexit. That's jobs, revenues, GDP, all heading over the channel to a new home.

Oops, sorry. I'm supposed to be positive about this, otherwise I'm "talking the country down" and "making things worse". So I'll do my best to be a bit more positive.

I'm positive this is a bad thing. I'm positive this is the fault of Brexit. I'm positive that the clueless idiots that voted for Brexit will try and claim that none of this is their fault.

There, I feel much better now. It's good to be positive.

There will be winners and losers in all this, much like when we originally joined the EEC. As this goes on, we will fine some things are easier now we are out of the EU and some things that are harder outside the EU.

This is anecdotal, but I work in the HVAC industry and we have seen a few projects coming up in the past year such as huge tomato growing facilities. You see the same with Nissan, EU ROO means that I think 55% of the car has to be sourced from UK parts, this will bring manufacturing back to the UK. Of course there will be some degree of business going the other way too, we just have to see how this shakes down.

What this EU vaccine debacle has created, is a clean slate between leavers and remainers (the normal ones, not the tiny vocal minorities on social media). We're in the territory of 'lets give this a go and see what happens', which, after the last 4 years is immense progress.

[sircaw]

Not even a little bit. Shutting down a conversation wouldn't have me telling you to discuss it in an appropriate thread, would it? How you think you're putting me on the spot, I don't know.

I'm just going to pretend you actually did what you said you would and ignore you're here at all from now on. There is nothing of value to be gained from you.

Of you go then, if your not prepared to be honest and call out the EU for their colossal fuck up, put me on ignore.

I don't want to associate with dishonest people.

Bye.

[Rockyreg]

It took them days to bring it up in this thread, i even said to myself i will give them 2 or 3 days before i post anything, hoping that one of them would be honest and fair and bring it up by themselves.

We know how that ended up lol.


The best thing about this thread i have people saying how straight and honest they are and they see things from a UK perspective haha.

This colossal fuck by the eu has nothing to do with the UK, its all on them, yet somehow people in this thread are still trying to blame the UK hahaha.

I even got an infraction for telling the god damn truth.

The mods just bow to number pressure, its been going on way to long in this thread.

I am glad you spoke up, i know there are others but yer, this place is full of Bullies.

There are none so blind, as those who will not see.

Don't worry mate, these people only eat themselves in the end. When you 'cancel' your adversaries it just means you end up fighting amongst yourselves like rats in a sack.

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Of you go then, if your not prepared to be honest and call out the EU for their colossal fuck up, put me on ignore.

I don't want to associate with dishonest people.

Bye.

This is what happens when they are unable to silence people, they soon scuttle off with their tail between their legs. Actually rather pathetic

[Rockyreg]

You guys are cute. There is no attempt to silence, and certainly no scuttling going on.

Who could have ever guessed there would be 2 of you that are so bad at this.

Point stands, look where your echo chamber has led you to.

[Acidbaron]

You're putting too much effort into my statement, that the EU could have acted faster. Israel definately showed the way, but it seems as if the EU did not use the summer "break" from covid, to prepare better for round 2, and everyone had the "vaccines arent coming for a looong time!", however done is done.

The UK is not an example to follow tho, Boris handled it like shit in 2020, and pushing the 2nd shot 3 months later than the first, which is unadviced by the producer, is stupid aswell. Apparently getting the 1st shot so they can claim "we've vaccinated 10 %!" while fact is that they've vaccinated about 500k people, and risc vasting several shots, because they go about it in a yolo manner.

But as I said, EU's size is also a weakness, that makes fast decision making difficult. When they try to, stupid shit like pulling article 16 on NI is suggested, and thankfully retracted. Our beef is with AZ and not the UK.


This race to first vaccine period, cannot be a reason to worsen our relationship to the UK. Sure they decided to brexit, but I really do hope that we'll settle this as partners, and not block the export of vaccines to the UK.

Fair enough the general consensus now is that opening back up over the summer was a mistake.

Well that relationship has been soured long ago and i don't see this getting back to normal after the UK went through a few political changes that are bound to happen considering the one cluster fuck after the other that's taking place there.

[Twdft]

i asked you to be fair and report good things about Brexit too not just the negative ones

We would report good things about Brexit, but to be honest I can't think of a single one.

So I ask you again... what exactly are the good things about Brexit? What about Brexit has made your life better?

[Rockyreg]

We would report good things about Brexit, but to be honest I can't think of a single one.

So I ask you again... what exactly are the good things about Brexit? What about Brexit has made your life better?

Have you been in a coma for the last week?