Something isn't right in PvP

[Kalisandra]

The shadowlands thing is if you dont respond in 0.5 sec you are bad. (And dead)

Its obviously rediculous.

I manage to not lose all the time, and I don't always react to incoming damage that fast. At the low rankings where I'm at the rule is simple - as soon as you get hit (or targeted if it's a fire mage), hit your best defensive. Sure sometimes you get faked out, but if you don't and it's for real, you're dead, so you hit that button. I get the strong impression that people think they should be able to stand in some Ret's face while they pop wings and burst, and be able to spend some time asking themselves "Do I need to hit a defensive?". That's ridiculous - when someone is bursting on your arse, so absolutely should have to hit a defensive or stun them and take some countermeasures.

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Where are you getting this?
Because all the stats online say not even close. Disc priests at over 10% representation and shamans at below 5%. So over double the priests compared to shamans.

I went to Blizzard's 3v3 leaderboard and counted the number in the top 100. Now it's possible that most Disc Priests log off in Shadow, while Shamans switch to Resto, but I doubt it.

[kukkamies]

I went to Blizzard's 3v3 leaderboard and counted the number in the top 100. Now it's possible that most Disc Priests log off in Shadow, while Shamans switch to Resto, but I doubt it.

Arenamate has the same list but gives you the actual counts and percentages, no need to count by hand. At 2600+ it's 4 times the disc priests than shamans. At 3000+ it's still double and 3200+ there aren't even any shamans, but 2 discs.

Maybe you are checking only EU? It does have less discs in the 3100+ bracket. Go 3000+ and it's double discs, go 3200+ and there's no shamans at all.

[Kalisandra]

The reason games go 5-6 min is holy paladin being absurdly broken and 90% of healers play holy pal rn
When I play with priests our games never go that long because we either land a kill or he goes oom

From what I can see, checking a few sites, at the top levels it's about half Holy Paladins. Disc and Shamans are most of the rest.

[Killchain]

Negative.

I've seen 230 geared players nearly one shot by hunters around 180 ilevel.


I have too much experience in PvP over the the past six years to think it's still the same game.

The flow and pace has changed radically.

Highest ilvl in the world right now is 227?

[Kalisandra]

Arenamate has the same list but gives you the actual counts and percentages, no need to count by hand. At 2600+ it's 4 times the disc priests than shamans. At 3000+ it's still double and 3200+ there aren't even any shamans, but 2 discs.

Maybe you are checking only EU? It does have less discs in the 3100+ bracket. Go 3000+ and it's double discs, go 3200+ and there's no shamans at all.

I checked only USA. Looking at various sites, 3000+ there are 5 Shamans, 5 Disc.

At 3200+ worldwide there are only 18 players, so you'd expect 6 teams and 6 healers. It's hardly surprising that the numbers up there are highly skewed, and those healers are HPalx3, Discx2, and HPriestx1 and Holy Priests aren't generally considered very flash, they aren't particularly indicative of the 3v3 meta overall. IF they are, there'd be a heck of a lot more Holy Priests lower down.

Interestingly, the top 1000 or so players are about 2/3rds Horde, 1/3rd Alliance, as is the top 10,000. However, at 3000+ (the top ~240) the factions are fairly balanced.

[Alanar]

I manage to not lose all the time, and I don't always react to incoming damage that fast. At the low rankings where I'm at the rule is simple - as soon as you get hit (or targeted if it's a fire mage), hit your best defensive. Sure sometimes you get faked out, but if you don't and it's for real, you're dead, so you hit that button. I get the strong impression that people think they should be able to stand in some Ret's face while they pop wings and burst, and be able to spend some time asking themselves "Do I need to hit a defensive?". That's ridiculous - when someone is bursting on your arse, so absolutely should have to hit a defensive or stun them and take some countermeasures.

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And this right here is the problem. Sure ret snd fire do crazy damage and when you see wings or combustion all obvious stuff, But The problem is that there is no question realy if you should use it or not if you want to live. If you failed to press a devensive you are just dead. Room for error is kinda zero. Thats the burst meta for you.

There is no thinking should I use it or not, that is kinda gone. That is imo not a healthy gameplay.

[Kitaen]

And this right here is the problem. Sure ret snd fire do crazy damage and when you see wings or combustion all obvious stuff, But The problem is that there is no question realy if you should use it or not if you want to live. If you failed to press a devensive you are just dead. Room for error is kinda zero. Thats the burst meta for you.

There is no thinking should I use it or not, that is kinda gone. That is imo not a healthy gameplay.

It is not only about pressing defensives, it is also about disabling the enemy damage by CC, line of sighting, and in general approaching burst heavy classes in a smart way.
The difference between whiny 1800 players that die in 3 gcds and gladiators is that the latter will be aware of what is happening and play defensively.

Thats perfectly showcased on the AWC when games featuring 2 mages, ele and shadow last for 10-14 minutes. A burst heavy meta is 10 times as healthy as all games going to dampening. You can see the resurge of wow pvp on the ladder, the LFG tool and literally everyone who is sick of the borefest that was pvp over the last 3-4 addons.

[Enclave]

It is not only about pressing defensives, it is also about disabling the enemy damage by CC, line of sighting, and in general approaching burst heavy classes in a smart way.
The difference between whiny 1800 players that die in 3 gcds and gladiators is that the latter will be aware of what is happening and play defensively.

Thats perfectly showcased on the AWC when games featuring 2 mages, ele and shadow last for 10-14 minutes. A burst heavy meta is 10 times as healthy as all games going to dampening. You can see the resurge of wow pvp on the ladder, the LFG tool and literally everyone who is sick of the borefest that was pvp over the last 3-4 addons.

its burst meta in both healing and damage, there's no cooldown management anymore you just trade cds until one team fucks up, it was perfectly showcased in those dumb 15 min games in AWC

[Alanar]

It is not only about pressing defensives, it is also about disabling the enemy damage by CC, line of sighting, and in general approaching burst heavy classes in a smart way.

Look, the point that I tried to make is that the general feel while also thinking about all those things you sum up, has just changed, because of the burst meta.

You like it or hate it, but I liked the less bursty version over the crap we got right now.

[Recovery]

It's not just hunters moron.

You don't' suddenly "get bad" when you've been glad and HW.

The pace and flow has changed.

And I do not like it. This is not the same game. WoW PvP has been closer to a real-time card game for the past several years; Shadowlands is almost an FPS.

I don't need to go much further into PvP and Shadowlands to think things are going to be that much different when I have max gear/stats/renown/binds etc. I can see the "writing on the wall," so why would I proceed any further?

I'm allowed to voice my dissent.

you most certainly CAN "get bad", even if youre X glad / H HOTA / x HWL if you dont adapt.

Thats why you see people running around on BC, WOTLK, CATA glad drakes that are hard stuck at duelist now.

I have an assortment of glad titles from bc to present. However, i have NONE from BFA. Reason being i HATE azerite, essences, and corruption and 100% pve gear. I refused to be okay with that playstyle. I refused to farm all of the shit that made the classes good. I didnt adapt.

Adapt and be good, or dont and be bad, or quit. Your decision.

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Look, the point that I tried to make is that the general feel while also thinking about all those things you sum up, has just changed, because of the burst meta.

You like it or hate it, but I liked the less bursty version over the crap we got right now.

You like the less bursty version of WOW pvp because you like more room for error. Its understandable.

I dont think most people share your preference though. Alot of us like the little room for error and the fast games as a result.

I main disc. The only problem I have in arena is ooming LOOOOOONG before some other healers (looking at you Hpal and Rsham).

[Shawry]

The bursty style and pace is good if classes were more balanced. (Am I dreaming?!)
I love arena and RGBs, but I dont like (and havent) re-rolled to FOTM specs just to be viable....and so I suffer big time!

[Enclave]

you most certainly CAN "get bad", even if youre X glad / H HOTA / x HWL if you dont adapt.

Thats why you see people running around on BC, WOTLK, CATA glad drakes that are hard stuck at duelist now.

I have an assortment of glad titles from bc to present. However, i have NONE from BFA. Reason being i HATE azerite, essences, and corruption and 100% pve gear. I refused to be okay with that playstyle. I refused to farm all of the shit that made the classes good. I didnt adapt.

Adapt and be good, or dont and be bad, or quit. Your decision.

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You like the less bursty version of WOW pvp because you like more room for error. Its understandable.

I dont think most people share your preference though. Alot of us like the little room for error and the fast games as a result.

I main disc. The only problem I have in arena is ooming LOOOOOONG before some other healers (looking at you Hpal and Rsham).

The tradeoff of less room for errors is the game is way less tactical, you can't save a CD anymore to use later, enemy pops CDs you must respond with CDs
its more reactionary gameplay and less tactical, which is quite boring
If i wanted to play reactionary game I'd go play COD

[Yoshimiko]

The bursty style and pace is good if classes were more balanced. (Am I dreaming?!)
I love arena and RGBs, but I dont like (and havent) re-rolled to FOTM specs just to be viable....and so I suffer big time!

This is one of the most diverse pvp seasons we've had in a very, very long time. Yeah, sure fire mage is very strong and DH is a bit lackluster but everyone else is doing pretty well & every class has multiple glad-worthy specs.

[Shalaator]

The tradeoff of less room for errors is the game is way less tactical, you can't save a CD anymore to use later, enemy pops CDs you must respond with CDs
its more reactionary gameplay and less tactical, which is quite boring
If i wanted to play reactionary game I'd go play COD

Exactly.

The majority of posters in here don't seem to understand.

It's like I logged into Team Fortress one day, and a new patch came in and turned it into Minecraft.

They built an entirely different game in shadowlands.

Legion/BFA was a long term haul. "Mistakes and Errors" in PvP were a continuum, think of it as the mean and standard deviation of "error." Legion and BFA were about reducing the mean and standard deviation of your mistakes to a bare minimum, as is a game of chess.

The games played out over time, where a significant accumulation of errors would lead to a sudden defeat as dampening rose. (an exponentially increasing chance of failure in regards to the sum of your errors and dampening).

Shadowlands is a different game entirely, it's a FPS moreso than anything else, where a single error or single event (outside your control) leads to an immediate defeat; and conversely, a single play or a single good RNG (outside your control), leads to an immediate victory.

So why not just play an FPS then?

And yes, there's no saving cd's anymore. I said earlier in this thread: "Legion/BFA" were akin to a card game, you wouldn't show your entire hand at the start, sometimes you'd take a minor defeat over 30 seconds so you could use/save/invest a particular CD for a potentially game winning moment afterwards.

Now everyone throws all their cards at each other at the start of an engagement. If you don't you lose.

[docterfreeze]

Don't have a big problem with the pace, the low skill ceiling is the real issue I see. Massive burst was a thing in MoP but for the most part you needed skill to execute it optimally. Pool resources, line up procs, fast and strict combos, snapshot, etc. Now it's 1 button nukes like convoke, the hunt, divine toll, stormkeeper and others or CD stacking into 1-2-3 rotations.

[Angrie]

Don't have a big problem with the pace, the low skill ceiling is the real issue I see. Massive burst was a thing in MoP but for the most part you needed skill to execute it optimally. Pool resources, line up procs, fast and strict combos, snapshot, etc. Now it's 1 button nukes like convoke, the hunt, divine toll, stormkeeper and others or CD stacking into 1-2-3 rotations.

As a healer, i had the following experience. Playing against Boomkin, Ret, Disc:

Game starts Ret mounted up, and runs at me.
HoJ.
I trinket, because i know convoke is coming with the HoJ and want to prewall.
I get hit with a beam after i trinket (no action can be done).

I died from: Judgement 9,7k Judgment 9,7k Judgment 9.7k Starsurge 17.1k Starsurge 17.1k Mindgames 4.3k

After the first Starsurge, Phial of Serenity auto healed me, and Mindgames proced on me when i used "Bag of Tricks" for the heal since i was silenced.
If you think this is fun or whatever, it's not. Call it severe RNG. There's just nothing you can do sometimes and that not how the game should play.

I get it though, been around the game long enough to get it. Every new expansion goes like this:
1st Season - burst season (why are rets ALWAYS the best at launch?)
2nd Season - healing season (Healers can survive pretty much everything)
3rd season - setups season - (caster cleave dominates because they live long enough to get their damage off)

Been the story for awhile now, but SL season 1 is not even close to fun... not even close...

[msdos]

People are programmed to take path of least resistance. If RP or RPM is that path, its the games fault, not the community. Thats just how people work.

But people I meet aren't like that, the people who want to take that path are actually in the minority, hence, every single person in my Classic guild caring about world buffs and consumes and this and that.

It's only in PVP where people wanna act like that, because there's zero balance and everyone knows it.

[Daymanmb]

But people I meet aren't like that, the people who want to take that path are actually in the minority, hence, every single person in my Classic guild caring about world buffs and consumes and this and that.

It's only in PVP where people wanna act like that, because there's zero balance and everyone knows it.

Using consumes and world buffs is the path of least resistance.

[Kalisandra]

Legion/BFA was a long term haul. "Mistakes and Errors" in PvP were a continuum, think of it as the mean and standard deviation of "error." Legion and BFA were about reducing the mean and standard deviation of your mistakes to a bare minimum, as is a game of chess.

The games played out over time, where a significant accumulation of errors would lead to a sudden defeat as dampening rose. (an exponentially increasing chance of failure in regards to the sum of your errors and dampening).

No, you mucked around until dampening got to the point where healers couldn't keep up and then you pressured or burst someone to death. Aside from sustained pressure having more value than it does at the moment (something I would like), it was basically the same but with a 10 minute plus wait before the real game started.

And yes, there's no saving cd's anymore. I said earlier in this thread: "Legion/BFA" were akin to a card game, you wouldn't show your entire hand at the start, sometimes you'd take a minor defeat over 30 seconds so you could use/save/invest a particular CD for a potentially game winning moment afterwards.

Assuming your spec had more than one cooldown.

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1st Season - burst season (why are rets ALWAYS the best at launch?)

They aren't. Unless you mean "why do Ret always drop away after launch?", in which case the answer is two-fold - they don't scale all that well, and they attract nerfs.

[StraiyEU]

pepole whinning about oneshots.. when i started playing srs pvp back in wrath there was so many oneshots aswell... its so much better than this dampening bullshit and if u know how to use ur cooldowns... u dont die that fast... if u have gear...