Covenants are terrible

[Niwes]

Oh, seems the rest of my message wasn't included. Ugh.. Think it was something along the line of, "If we keep these complaints going, we might as well just stick to one development, and make no options on systems for people will want the max choice anyways or complain, so just give them one choice instead while keeping cosmetic options for people who wish to delve deeper".

i am not sure if i understand you right. but i also see nothing i would disagree at a first look.

for me personally the old xpac design (TBC to WoD) was more than enough. raids, dungeons, pvp and some dailies etc. is for my taste enough (since there are pet battles, achievements, the „AH game“, farming, collect things and foremost Alts waiting for us too).

i would have zero problems with systems like covenants etc. when its just all about cosmetics and vanity. personal character development by cool tmog styles, mounts, pets, toys, titles and reputation would fit „my“ wow SL and covenants way better. i am personally absolutely no fan of borrowed power systems and foremost no fan of systems that are linked to player power. gear should be for player power. rest should be (MMO)RPG.

but maybe i am just too old.

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Covenants could be within 0.5% of eachother and majority would pick the best simming one.

The problem is the players.

first statement: agree.
second statement: disagree.

when first statement is true since vanila aka since 15 years (and it is), then you are REALLY saying that after all that years and lessons learned by Blizzard the actual design is OUR fault ??? hmm, k.

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Reason for this - classes stop being choice. I guess, majority of playerbase has them all. Devs have to homogenize them, because class choice shouldn't be about available content choice. Even more classes to be added - even harder to balance. And Blizzard just want to reduce amount of choices to reasonable number. Four.

P.S. I've forgotten about it. Are classes as about cosmetic choice, as gameplay choice? Yes.

no offense here, but i do not get your „logic“ in the slightest. imo you are talking huge BS (because it makes no sense to me, not to offend).

1)
even if everyone has every class up and running (which is not true), you can not play them all at the same time with same effect just by relogging. not as long as gear, rep and other stuff is not account wide. means: a class always has an investment.

2)
most ppl (a few years ago Ion stated 81% of them) play solely one class. they have one main they always stick to and some alts, loosely haniging around, or not even 1 alt.

3)
yes, classes were more and more streamlined in the last years. but a) this is for cheaper and easier maintaining (all classes are based on producer/consumer pattern) for Blizz, and b) they drive again away from it, since a few years, because ppl do not like it.

4)
and even if you can switch your class like your underwear, what is your point ???

sorry, i can see you seem to having a dedicated point you aiming at. but it makes zero sense, at least for me.

[McNeil]

Covenants is basically just a lot of old features crammed together while locking in player powers that for most part is the deciding factor for a lot of players. They could have done much more with the covenant system like having some kind of rivalry system with the other covenants and just keep the rewards cosmetic and maybe some extra flavour (like new effects for your abilities), while the new abilities could be another talent row. I'm getting some serious garrison vibes with how half assed this system ended up with.

[MCJOHNS117]

They wanted your covenant to be a meaningful choice, but by tying player power to the soulbinds they effectively removed any meaning.

They have known min/maxing is a thing, they know about fan-sites and theory crafting and sims. They had to know that some covenant/soulbind combos performed better than others. So by tying player power to soulbinds they had to know that a large portion of the community would just look up a class guide and go. The problem is that many soulbinds changed in the weeks and days leading up to release, and I am not convinced that every website was updated with current information. Again, this isn't the fan-sites problem, and wouldn't be a problem in general if the process of changing covenants wasn't such a pain.

The covenant conundrum really leads back to the entire convoluted story of Shadowlands. We're the only mortals to have ever walked these lands, we're the only ones to have ever escaped the Maw. We're the only hero's capable of fixing the problems in Shadowlands it seems. We proved in the story quests that the covenants we're fighting each other due to the Jailors machinations, and we proved it to all of the covenant leaders. So why then do we need to earn the trust of someone like Ve'nari, or why is it taken as such a massive slight to change covenants? (This being the in-game narrative reason for renown resetting and anima being lost) Like think about the word renown, literally defined as "the condition of being known or talked about by many people; fame." Why does it matter if were in Ardenweald helping the Nightfae, or Maldraxxus helping the Necrolords? Aren't we all just fixing the problems the Jailor has caused, with the ultimate goal of restoring the flow of anima and thus fixing the problems EVERY covenant is facing?

Making the process of switching covenants difficult/time gated makes no sense in terms of story, or gameplay. When you make switching covenants as easy as switching a spec, you open the floodgates for more interesting gameplay. Leave all the cosmetic items tied to renown, leave the covenant sanctum upgrades tied to each covenant. Take the soulbinds and tie their unlocks into the main episodic story of Shadowlands. Put the alter in Oribos and tie it to the Arbiters. Then allow us to pledge to w/e covenant we want, giving us a permanent buff "Pledged to XYZ Covenant, your deeds help to strengthen their resolve.", When you pledge to a different covenant, the buff is replaced appropriately.

[Aydinx2]

which is not the worst in itself, but what's bad about it is, that it gives you illusion of choice, and there is no choice.

There is a choice. You just decided to let min/max-ers make the choice for you.

"But people will always do what is the best %"
Yeah, that's their choice.

[Glorious Leader]

I have come to the conclusion that we cannot have new systems or experiences of such due to the min/max mentality and cookie-cutter attitude. Though Shadowlands has shown that a lot of people just pick what they like the look off, many more just google for the best option. The numbers will always be crunched, and people will always go for the highest number.

and I don't see the problem with this. if thats what some people want to do then by all means and its also not true of every choice. You know what the real fucking problem of this game is. Too many fucking people worried about other people. Oh that fucking scrub Jim tank got a tf piece from wq QQ NERF TF.

[Kaver]

Only case, when classes would be balanced - when they would be the exactly same. Class balance has always been about rock-paper-scissors, i.e. pros and cons. Covenants are very similar to classes. They're about both gameplay and visuals. They're about pros and cons. They're about permanent choice. They both have specs (mediums are like specs). They're about some story behind them.

Simple question. Why don't you ask for classes to be swappable at any moment? Why game can't have other "permanent choice" systems beyond classes? Why min-maxing mentality should be primary one?

I'll try again and see if you can understand it (I'll keep my hope down):

Covenants are NOT similar to classes. Classes are much more detailed. I cannot believe that it's even a discussion. Choosing a covenant is no where near similar to choosing a class.

[Glorious Leader]

They wanted your covenant to be a meaningful choice, but by tying player power to the soulbinds they effectively removed any meaning.

The exact opposite is true. Having little or no impact in how you perform means the choice is almost irrelevant. Its simple a matter of which recolor or model you prefer.

[MCJOHNS117]

The exact opposite is true. Having little or no impact in how you perform means the choice is almost irrelevant. Its simple a matter of which recolor or model you prefer.

We agree on the basis of the argument, but for different reasons, and that's fine with me.

[Kaver]

The exact opposite is true. Having little or no impact in how you perform means the choice is almost irrelevant. Its simple a matter of which recolor or model you prefer.

But now it's simply a matter of the highest numbers... how's that any better? The majority of players are clearly making the decision based on performance alone. Even people doing LFR.

[Glorious Leader]

But now it's simply a matter of the highest numbers... how's that any better? The majority of players are clearly making the decision based on performance alone. Even people doing LFR.

Take your pick illusion of choice or pathetic choice. To be fair to them its not always the most mathematically best choice. Revendreth is best for frost mage but NF is better for the other 2 specs if I'm not mistaken. Maldraxxus is best for ele and resto but revendreth is best for enhance and 2nd for the other two. So if you're a enhance shaman who part time heals...

[Kaver]

Too many fucking people worried about other people. Oh that fucking scrub Jim tank got a tf piece from wq QQ NERF TF.

People just want to get exclusive rewards for doing challenging content. Nothing wrong or unusual about that. You can apply it to almost everything. If you work hard for something and some pleb is just given the same then it feels less special. It's not rocket science.

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Take your pick illusion of choice or pathetic choice. To be fair to them its not always the most mathematically best choice. Revendreth is best for frost mage but NF is better for the other 2 specs if I'm not mistaken. Maldraxxus is best for ele and resto but revendreth is best for enhance and 2nd for the other two. So if you're a ele shaman who part time heals...

Yes but that's just a shitty choice. Why make people feel bad by making them choose between shit and piss.

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There is a choice. You just decided to let min/max-ers make the choice for you.

"But people will always do what is the best %"
Yeah, that's their choice.

"Do you want to shoot yourself in the right or left leg" - Meaningful choice 2020

[Glorious Leader]

People just want to get exclusive rewards for doing challenging content. Nothing wrong or unusual about that. You can apply it to almost everything. If you work hard for something and some pleb is just given the same then it feels less special. It's not rocket science.

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Yes but that's just a shitty choice. Why make people feel bad by making them choose between shit and piss.

People want rewards period and you don't really get to define what's challenging or not for other people. You know what really makes somebody not feel special is when the game constantly reinforces you suck and the game developers constantly reminding you of such. The game isn't a prestige mechanism.

[xero5141]

Ah, the "forced" argument. I feel like quoting that line from the movie about not thinking a word means what the other person does, but I'd be beating a dead horse. Bonus points for the elitism that only bad players will disagree with you, well done.

I agree with you 100% except on the part where he said the PUBLIC PRESSURE is enormous, which it is. If I joined a heroic pug as a necrolord boomkin, people would have some shit to say.

[probert]

Covenants are Path of the Titans rebranded, the idea bad enough it was dropped from Wrath but recycled because there's no long term direction for WoW anymore.

- release an expansion every 24 months, no matter what
- layer multiple grinds into 'progression', but change it up enough each expansion to ensure players can't see you copying your homework
- shuffled mechanics around to give the illusion that you're trying to achieve balance
- try to find ways to maximize the recycling of content as much as possible (e.g. mythic+, endless torghast, multiple tiers of raids)
- do your best to disguise the gradual shrinking of content (e.g. fewer and fewer dungeons, fewer and fewer zones) as you hollow out the team to maximize profit.

[Glorious Leader]

Covenants are Path of the Titans rebranded, the idea bad enough it was dropped from Wrath but recycled because there's no long term direction for WoW anymore.

- release an expansion every 24 months, no matter what
- layer multiple grinds into 'progression', but change it up enough each expansion to ensure players can't see you copying your homework
- shuffled mechanics around to give the illusion that you're trying to achieve balance
- try to find ways to maximize the recycling of content as much as possible (e.g. mythic+, endless torghast, multiple tiers of raids)
- do your best to disguise the gradual shrinking of content (e.g. fewer and fewer dungeons, fewer and fewer zones) as you hollow out the team to maximize profit.

It was brought back because the WoD debacle proved you needed to offer some kind of long term non raid playability at end game. Legion weapons, azerite all the same shit.

[Swnem]

I agree.

Ion promised they would balance them, but as expected, they failed. This was a bad idea they were told was bad since the start.
I was recently forced to change covenant and i tell you, i hated having to do that. Weekly AP grind, incredibly overpriced upgrades and items. The whole thing is a bad version of the class halls and/or garrisons.

[aceperson]

ilvl is no gearscore 2.0, ilvl has existed in WoW since release as its what Blizzard uses to allocate the stat budget to an item. the original gearscore addon used ilvl to make up the score. Which in turn made the original gearscore addon terrible since it only looked at ilvl and didn't regard if the actual stats on a item were good or bad for a class. The usage of ilvl in WoW has nothing to do with being "an endorsement to min maxing"

ilvl did exist before gearscore but it wasn't a mainstream method of judging people until after it was added to the character interface for easy access to your average ilvl. while it does predate gearscore, it is effectively gearscore 2.0.

[Swnem]

Covenants could be within 0.5% of eachother and majority would pick the best simming one.

The problem is the players.

They are NOT 0.5% away though, it's much more. Your post is misinterpreting the situation and it's irrelevant.

The only problem are players like you, that think they can ignore the fact that the game is competitive and people want to be optimal because that is how you play the game right. At least now you can't pretend to be a majority. People don't like these systems cause they are simply traps.
There is no such thing as a meaningful choice in an mmo if it afects power. In this case there is a right choice and 3 wrong choices. Being optimal is a requirement in order to clear content as easily as possible. That is what humans always do. They choose the road of least resistance. It's the smart thing to do. You were fooling yourself, as were the devs who don't understand they are making an mmo and not a single player game.

[Doffen]

Covenants are great and I really like having an entirely new place to zone in to every day which feel great for each individual character. To enter a dungeon and be something the others are not, even if same spec and feel the difference in themes and abilities feels good.

I am now a Necrolord Frost Death Knight, Night Fae Balance Druid, Night Fae Survival Hunter and Venthyr Arcane Mage. As with Class Halls where Classes were the focus, and I absolutely loved that, with Covenants the player is in the focus and I for one think it's great, and, even better.

[Okacz]

Covenants could be within 0.5% of eachother and majority would pick the best simming one.

The problem is the players.

Don't think so. If it was 0.5%, it would be enough for their unique benefits (dungeon buffs, prefered theme, utility, AoE/cleave capabilities, group benefit) to make a larger difference. Right now it's way beyond the 0.5% for many specs, making some of the choices more of a meme than a legit one. See Necrolord Warrior or Venthyr Hunter.

Point is, they could have been balanced better.