get rid of valor points and just bring back TF and WF

[Zyky]

Personal loot was a counter to loot funneling that guilds and raid teams regularly performed. Master loot had toxic behavior elements such as raid trials not getting any loot in favor of established raiders, ninja looting, etc etc. While ML is imperfect, it did have many benefits despite it's removal.

Wrong. Personal loot was implemented in MoP specifically in LFR to counter trolls in LFR need rolling everything in Dragon Soul LFR. Funneling effected 20-30 guilds WORLDWIDE tops, this was not an issue and literally nothing changed as they're still running a dozen runs of each raid to funnel loot. The only issue Master Loot had was in pugs. They solved that by forced personal loot in pug groups. There was VERY RARE situations of greedy leadership, but the majority of those guilds were not good guilds nor did they last very long. Frankly trials do not deserve loot over established raiders, they should have to prove themselves before getting loot from a guild, getting loot then leaving a week or two later, hinders that guilds progression because of the player being a guild hopper. Trials deserve NO LOOT until they prove themselves loyal to the guild and adequate as a raider. Bottom line. Especially when they want to force minimal drops that you need for progression raiding.

Loot not being valuable and poorly designed loot = I'd argue that Blizzard had the opposite problem especially in Legion. A great example is Resto Druid T19 4pc bonus which bundled with Legion's resto druid artifact + legion legendaries made for such a power imbalance that it took a minimum of 2 strong nerfs to get resto druids to finally switch to the next tier set.

I disagree entirely, we've had several situations since Legion where you're fishing for specific items from prior tiers, with and without Titanforging, just because the items are not as valuable later on and Blizzard just doesn't correct the problem. A few notible situations I can give immediately off the top of my head Unstable Arcanocrystal, Convergence of Fates(despite serveral nerfs was still BiS for several melee and hunters), and Azshara's Font of Power.

And also consider the headache that was Legion Tier Sets + legendaries. Not only did you had to juggle around the 4pc tier bonus but also 2 legion legendaries to equip. And that's before you start looking at TF previous tier 2pc + current tier 4pc + 2 legendaries + artifact = talk about an inflexible gearing because you had to have XYZ in slots ABC to accommodate that crazy gearing setup.

What does that have to do with the argument that I made regarding loot tables being shit for the last 3 years post Legion? You can say it was to juggle in Legion, but Legion was 3 years ago, the loot system and loot philosophies should evolve with the removal of aspects such as what you're trying to use as a counter argument.

[Helander]

The people whining about TF and WF just completely ruined this game. It has to be said.

And for the record, please for the love of god stop talking about how "everyone" wanted WF and TF gone. I never did. That was one of the few good ideas they had and whiners wrecked it.

No TF ruined the game. Why should someone who has literally 2 brains cells, put the tank on follow and afkd through LFR get a piece of gear that is 10 ilvls higher than what drops in mythic raids?

You liked it because you didn't have to do literally any work to get gear, and that gear carried you.

[Alroxas]

Frankly trials do not deserve loot over established raiders, they should have to prove themselves before getting loot from a guild, getting loot then leaving a week or two later, hinders that guilds progression because of the player being a guild hopper. Trials deserve NO LOOT until they prove themselves loyal to the guild and adequate as a raider. Bottom line. Especially when they want to force minimal drops that you need for progression raiding.

Yet Blizzard decided otherwise. Either it was a big enough issue for them OR they disagree with your assessment that trials do not deserve any loot.

I disagree entirely, we've had several situations since Legion where you're fishing for specific items from prior tiers, with and without Titanforging,

What does that have to do with the argument that I made regarding loot tables being shit for the last 3 years post Legion? You can say it was to juggle in Legion, but Legion was 3 years ago, the loot system and loot philosophies should evolve with the removal of aspects such as what you're trying to use as a counter argument.

These both go in-hand. Part of loot tables being "shit" is the removal of those powerful gear options. Tier sets = Gone, Amazing trinkets = Gone or at added a component of RNG to them (i.e. Inscrutable Quantum Device). Legendaries are back but we've also lost artifact weapons, HoA, azerite armor traits.

Great loot feeds into players wanting to farming prior tiers for said loot to be effective in current tier content. And imbalanced loot (like overpowered Tier sets) also feed into that drive to farm prior tiers. WF/TF (and potentially Valor Point upgrades) can do the same. Instead of driving folks to get XYZ loot off the next raid, players will want to revisit DoS to get another upgradable version of IQD or pray to RNGseus that their GV gives them a mythic raid level version of that trinket (minus the 6ilv from the last two bosses).

The only system (so far) that's worked for "great loot" is the Benthic catch-up gear which gave specific effects while you were in Nazjatar/Eternal Palace but useless beyond that. Yeah it's a form of borrowed power but at least players won't feel the urge to go back and refarm that older content when new stuff comes out.

- - - Updated - - -

Who does it hurt when a casual gets a great item from a world quest? You? It sure didn't hurt me.

What you're doing here is called 'gatekeeping', and it's not a good thing.

But consider the min/max player, now they have to do all levels of content (from LFR through Mythic) on the off chance that XYZ might TF to the cap. It's a time investment that's horrendous and negative to the health of the game.

We've already seen countless examples: Grinding Maw of Souls because (prior to Blizzard intervening) it was the fast AP grind for artifacts. Grinding AP via Island Expeditions because unlocking the HoA was necessary to gain the inner Azerite rings of loot that dropped off higher difficulties.

So far in SL, there isn't much grind because renown is capped and anima provides next to nothing for power gains beyond ilv 194. And folks enjoy that lack of no grind, bringing back WF/TF turns every loot drop into a slot machine where there's always that slight chance you might hit a jackpot TF but you'll never know unless you do all the activities.

[callipygoustp]

Fuck that. VP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TF/WF

[Zyky]

Yet Blizzard decided otherwise. Either it was a big enough issue for them OR they disagree with your assessment that trials do not deserve any loot.

Again you're operating under the philosophy as that's why personal loot was made, it wasn't as it was around for years prior for a different reason.

These both go in-hand. Part of loot tables being "shit" is the removal of those powerful gear options. Tier sets = Gone, Amazing trinkets = Gone or at added a component of RNG to them (i.e. Inscrutable Quantum Device). Legendaries are back but we've also lost artifact weapons, HoA, azerite armor traits.

Except it's very easy to look at a loot table and see "oh we only have 2 possible weapon drops out of 10 bosses, we should fix this." "oh we have this one trinket that's literally losing out to 180 item level trinkets, we should fix this." "Oh there's only 1 pair of pants in this entire tier, we should add another pair."

There are very easy solution to making valuable loot drop without them having to reimplement tier sets, they consistently refuse to do it. They have the ability to tune things properly, they ignore feedback, and continue on like there isn't a problem. They refuse to listen to the same feedback that's been being given for 4 years and insist on making bandaid fixes that in the end only make everything worse.

[Glorious Leader]

Personal loot was a counter to loot funneling that guilds and raid teams regularly performed. Master loot had toxic behavior elements such as raid trials not getting any loot in favor of established raiders, ninja looting, etc etc. While ML is imperfect, it did have many benefits despite it's removal.

Loot not being valuable and poorly designed loot = I'd argue that Blizzard had the opposite problem especially in Legion. A great example is Resto Druid T19 4pc bonus which bundled with Legion's resto druid artifact + legion legendaries made for such a power imbalance that it took a minimum of 2 strong nerfs to get resto druids to finally switch to the next tier set.

To recap for those that forgot: 4pc T19 for restro druid provided 2% chance on rejuv tick to spawn another rejuv to another player. G'hanir (resto artifact) also provided Persistance (added up to 5s to rejuv, 3 from trait, 2 from relics) along with numerous flat bonuses to HoT healing. Add in Aman'Thul's Wisdom legion legendary that provided up to 9 additional seconds of rejuv if player is already at full HP. Add in Flourish to increase HoTs...

This combo was seriously broken and eventually Blizzard nerfed the T19 set down to 1% proc chance.

And also consider the headache that was Legion Tier Sets + legendaries. Not only did you had to juggle around the 4pc tier bonus but also 2 legion legendaries to equip. And that's before you start looking at TF previous tier 2pc + current tier 4pc + 2 legendaries + artifact = talk about an inflexible gearing because you had to have XYZ in slots ABC to accommodate that crazy gearing setup.

God that combination was fantastic.The chance to proc free rejuv is back with one of the legendaries.

[Argorwal]

Again you're operating under the philosophy as that's why personal loot was made, it wasn't as it was around for years prior for a different reason.




Except it's very easy to look at a loot table and see "oh we only have 2 possible weapon drops out of 10 bosses, we should fix this." "oh we have this one trinket that's literally losing out to 180 item level trinkets, we should fix this." "Oh there's only 1 pair of pants in this entire tier, we should add another pair."

There are very easy solution to making valuable loot drop without them having to reimplement tier sets, they consistently refuse to do it. They have the ability to tune things properly, they ignore feedback, and continue on like there isn't a problem. They refuse to listen to the same feedback that's been being given for 4 years and insist on making bandaid fixes that in the end only make everything worse.

It's funny because we've simultaneously had people say loot was more "meaningful" in vanilla when you weren't upgrading it so fast, and that was mostly because raids didn't even offer options in every slot every raid so you by default had to use older raid or dungeon items.

I don't think the players are as much of a hivemind as you think. After all we've seen some pro WF/TF already and that seemed to be "universally" hated in BFA.

[Alroxas]

They refuse to listen to the same feedback that's been being given for 4 years and insist on making bandaid fixes that in the end only make everything worse.

You do realize, you can quit and unsub at any time right? Also it's Blizzard's game, for better or for worse, if you don't like the direction that WoW is going then make your voice heard then move on. Nobody is forcing you to keep playing WoW.

"oh we only have 2 possible weapon drops out of 10 bosses, we should fix this."

Eh, but on the flip side, the 2 weapon drops give you a vendor to pick your preference. Do you go 2H or 1H/OH? And they even brought back 2H option for classes like Frost DK. And also imagine if they did add weapons to the loot pools instead of vendor coins... do you really want a bloated loot table for every boss? Especially with the lower drop rates at SL launch? Oh look there's 5 bosses that could drop a weapon for me but oh no... loot drops are only 3~4 for 20~30 people raid sizes.

There are very easy solution to making valuable loot drop without them having to reimplement tier sets, they consistently refuse to do it.

You know if it's that easy why don't you go work for Blizzard and show them the "errors" of their ways? I'm sure your ideas to improve WoW will go over well with Ion and his team.

[Nalam the Venom]

I try not to be toxic, but the only thing that came to my mind was "are you retarded?"

titanforged is horrible, to have someone get an item with a higher ilvl in a world quest than you do a heroic-mythic raid, is ridiculous

Just reward high ilvl from all content and people can do their heroic and Mythics for "Difficulty" and "Challange" only

[Belloc]

But consider the min/max player, now they have to do all levels of content (from LFR through Mythic) on the off chance that XYZ might TF to the cap. It's a time investment that's horrendous and negative to the health of the game.

No. I won't consider the min/max player. The min/max playstyle has always come with the immense drawback of never-ending grinding. In BFA, if it weren't TF/WF gear, it would have been Azerite. There's always something in the min/max playstyle that inevitably ruins the game because the game isn't designed around the min/max playstyle and the min/max playstyle has extreme diminishing returns. Even the Race to World First ends way before you hit the depths of the min/max approach. If someone is going to take that approach to WoW, then I don't want any systems designed with them in mind, period.

[Zyky]

It's funny because we've simultaneously had people say loot was more "meaningful" in vanilla when you weren't upgrading it so fast, and that was mostly because raids didn't even offer options in every slot every raid so you by default had to use older raid or dungeon items.

I don't think the players are as much of a hivemind as you think. After all we've seen some pro WF/TF already and that seemed to be "universally" hated in BFA.

It's not a matter of upgrading it fast, you're proving my point because in Vanilla you had several weapons dropping in a single raid compared to two. Example: Molten Core ALONE had 4 weapon drops for dps casters; while having the same number of bosses as Nathria and Nathria only drops 2. The loot tables are lacking heavily the last two expansions and it's obnoxious only have one item for a specific slot from a 10 boss raid.

You do realize, you can quit and unsub at any time right? Also it's Blizzard's game, for better or for worse, if you don't like the direction that WoW is going then make your voice heard then move on. Nobody is forcing you to keep playing WoW.

I love how I prove you wrong left and right and as a last resort your answer is to quit, somebody needs to grow up.

Eh, but on the flip side, the 2 weapon drops give you a vendor to pick your preference. Do you go 2H or 1H/OH? And they even brought back 2H option for classes like Frost DK. And also imagine if they did add weapons to the loot pools instead of vendor coins... do you really want a bloated loot table for every boss? Especially with the lower drop rates at SL launch? Oh look there's 5 bosses that could drop a weapon for me but oh no... loot drops are only 3~4 for 20~30 people raid sizes.

Really doesn't matter, as stated above you always had that option with more drops happening. Caster DPS in Molten Core had 2 Staves and 2 One-hand weapons. Their loot pools are lacking, plain and simple. You're literally wrong every single time you open your mouth.

You know if it's that easy why don't you go work for Blizzard and show them the "errors" of their ways? I'm sure your ideas to improve WoW will go over well with Ion and his team.

Because I have no interest in going to a company that's clearly on it's last leg. Blizzard has lost the vast majority of their talent over the last few years and what a surprise that all of them are still in the industry. Mike Morhaime just opened a new studio, literally right after his non-compete ended with Blizzard, if that doesn't tell you something's wrong at Blizzard you need to stop being delusional. Not to mention when he did, he took at least 15 employees from Blizzard, as you can tell very clearly from the staff photo's on his new companies website, many of them were influential people within Blizzard. You need to wake up, so I'm just going to block you now because you're clearly delusional lol.

[kaminaris]

There is much more problem for valor than just "casual vs elitist".

- Elitists can get it but they don't need it. They are already over 220.
- Casual need it but they can't get it. The requirement for 220 is KSM, which is hard for casuals.
- Most importantly, valor will be in 9.0.5, which will be march, and 9.1 will be in april/may. So players have 1-2 months to farm valor to upgrade gear just to get replaced right away in 9.1 by world quests reward, lol

Totally pointless so far. It would be more logical if they introduce it in 9.1 with new tier.

This, except 9.1 won't be in april/may.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Would be cool to have neither system, but for every time you loot an item, its ilvl increases by 3 or something.

[kaminaris]

But consider the min/max player, now they have to do all levels of content (from LFR through Mythic) on the off chance that XYZ might TF to the cap. It's a time investment that's horrendous and negative to the health of the game.

We've already seen countless examples: Grinding Maw of Souls because (prior to Blizzard intervening) it was the fast AP grind for artifacts. Grinding AP via Island Expeditions because unlocking the HoA was necessary to gain the inner Azerite rings of loot that dropped off higher difficulties.

So far in SL, there isn't much grind because renown is capped and anima provides next to nothing for power gains beyond ilv 194. And folks enjoy that lack of no grind, bringing back WF/TF turns every loot drop into a slot machine where there's always that slight chance you might hit a jackpot TF but you'll never know unless you do all the activities.

Nobody, literally NOBODY did that. I did LFR/normal/heroic/mythic for 3 tiers JUST to push bad luck protection for leggos. Titanforging wasn't even a 9001 thing in my mind not to mention second or third.

And there was nothing wrong with farming MoS or Islands for AP, that is for more hardcore players. Nobody put a gun in your head to do it. Not to mention, at least neck was like 0.5% per level so absolutely non issue. Early stages as well when people barely killed two mythic bosses.

You also have no idea how slot machines are working because if it worked like TF did I would be a millionaire by now. Slot machines are basically running dungeons and or raids. Weekly bingo lottery is literally bingo with tickets.

[razorpax]

Yes because removed my TF meant they were required to lower drop rates....no

Let the rng crap stay gone

[StaeleAilar]

Warforging in its *original* iteration was fine, imo. ~4 ilvls ONLY on a very low chance on gear that was already dropping. In SoO days they also had valor so people who were unlucky with WFing could upgrade their gear eventually to the same ilvl with the weekly caps of valor.

The problem with TFing and WFing in legion/BFA is that it was ridiculous how many levels you could get on gear which virtually made any piece of gear potentially BIS for what you could aquire at the time IF it procc'd high enough. Add into that the fact that IF it titanforged and it was a garbage piece of loot for you, guess what, you couldn't trade it to the people in your team who would die for it.
If it's ever brought back it needs to be its original conception and not the bfa sh*t show.

And just because *you* never said get rid of the titanforging problem, doesn't meen that a vast swathe of people said the same thing. In fact in most instances i've seen, they did in fact want it gone.

[Noctiphobia]

Honestly, I think that there can be something between "world quests can drop mythic gear" and "the only item you can obtain from mythic+ is from the weekly cache, the loot at the end of the dungeon is worthless". Titanforging was one way to change this, I guess there could be something else.

[GreatNameForSmurfingExTee]

If you do pvp then gearing is fine. If you dont its kind of a slap in the face.

Getting less loot from both m+ and raids along with the fact that both heroic ilvl drops and m+ ilvl drops are kinda low suchs ass. That coupled with the fact that our best chance of a loot upgrade is from the weekly loot wheel of fortune sucks hard.

- - - Updated - - -



Seing the exhange between you and the other guy is cringey at best. You make it out like he is the one on a lower level where are your entire post right here is just a steaming pile of insults.

Aha, try reading what i wrote, not what you think i wrote. Seems like edgy bois have to stick together

[Flurryfang]

The argument about TF reminds me of this argument I hear Path of Exile players make about trade league. Basically, they don't like playing in trade league because they're too tempted to take the path of least resistance and LITERALLY can't control themselves, they will "inadvertently" trivialize the game for themselves via trade, then they'll go over to the SSF side (no trading) and then start celebrating about how awesome and perfect the game is now that it has MECHANICALLY prevented them from having addictive behavior.

It's the same with WF/TF. The players are addicts who can't control themselves and they need the donuts to not be in front of them, otherwise they will spend all day and week min/maxing their way to the donut tray and will not stop until they hate the game and themselves.

TF was perfectly fine for me because I didn't sit and chase forges all day, I was just satisfied with what I had and didn't feel neurotic tendencies about needing to compete and be better than my peers on a video game. I get that people find competing fun in WoW since the content is brain dead, but not everyone relishes in competition, especially if said competition is ALSO brain dead.

Well said.

But also, you pointed out the perfect reason to keep it away. People are addicts. Not only are they addicts, but they actually admitted, that they can't control themselves. TF was bad for them, it was enabling bad behavier, that let to burnout.

After having heard something like that, i can't imagine people still wanting TF back from a view-point of wanting the best for the game and the players who play it.

[Stormdash]

The people whining about TF and WF just completely ruined this game. It has to be said.

And for the record, please for the love of god stop talking about how "everyone" wanted WF and TF gone. I never did. That was one of the few good ideas they had and whiners wrecked it.

No, the choice to oversteer in how those particular forms of game design herpes were removed has broken gearing. You won't fix it by putting the herpes back.

Their screw-up is that the rate that gear itself dropped from raids and Ms in BFA wasn't the problem, it was the need to pathological re-farm it all continuously. Nuking the rate may have extended the lifespan of gear progression within each content patch* for mains, but it also has made alts harder to catch up on gear and is also punitive to new players who just need their mains brought up to the level of the group they want to run with.

The current changes for this week and in 9.0.5 don't fix it either, because you can't upgrade stuff that doesn't drop. And while I'm used to PVP always making things worse and more inconvenient in an MMORPG, the new normal where your best option to progress PVE is to do rated PVP is a special kind of hell.

*The real answer to keeping gear progression relevant and extending its lifespan is more content so you keep having farther to push, and so far Shadowlands if off to a historic start in terms of promising content droughts.